Competitive Standard

[Mobius]

This is more of a discussion than it is an event and my actual intention isn't to draw an argument. Let's keep the discussion here, if any, civil.

I'm Mobius. You know who I am by now. I am the forerunner for what is now considered "the scene" or compet scene for 8bdm regarding classes (no one plays vanilla anymore anyway). My resume features 3 completed round-robin/single elimination tournaments and won 2 out of 3. Featured in all 3 finals. Everyone knows about A3 and whether you hate them or not the impact it has had is profound. We have now a small clan scene with irregular scrimmages and for CBL S4 all the major clans (shoutouts to Sex and XKS) will participate. When I am not organizing events and making sure things are happening I am shuttling players to other events. That's kind of the point for this topic. We should elucidate a standard if we are to continue having tournaments.

After CBL S3 a lot of players tend to take breaks exhausted from weeks of intense training and lab work. We rarely get post-season events but Mickle was getting a vanilla event together (Scorched Earth) and I figured I'd promote for him. It was a success off the gate with very few teams dipping, but overall Mickle got additional players from CBL (some dudes in vanilla has done a season so there's some overlap). It was an experience that brought together a divide between players from Vanilla, CBM, and CCBM and though not as big as CBL itself it's still very commendable to have differing players share games. There will be differences but that's natural and hopefully I'll step up for the next one. So far that's all well in good from this community's stand-point: we're finally bridging everything slowly.. very slowly.

Then recently another tournament came up from lesser known players. A few known players entered as ringers with some special rules in place for one of them: their class selection was limited to 5 and it was agreed upon. The tournament started and suddenly new stipulations was added mid games especially because this player won. What also ended up happening was his teammate got rules piled on him too despite not having any restrictions before-hand. Long story short: the inevitable happened and that these two guys lost. Bum deal. The identities of the parties involved are concealed since the issue was done with, but it does bring up another issue I want to discuss for the future: the future.

The end of 2019 -- 2019 as a whole -- has had many tournaments and a whole new booming scene for the competitive side. New players, a new public private server, new clans, and tournaments back to back coming into a new decade I want to see more of that. What I don't want to see is more tailored made house rules that limit a player and discriminate based on their perceived abilities and this is a story as old as time in 8bdm from what I am told. We're coming into a whole new era now and it's time we shed the past where it was. This community hasn't been as actively fierce as it has been since probably 2012 or 2013 and hopefully more step up throughout the era, but we should no longer allow or at least entertain events that cater to a marginal crowd of people at the expense of others. For too long the word "fun" has been used as a catch-all to deny others the chance to play properly and fairly. If we are to continue making tournaments and events then we have to really consider what is the main objective of a tournament, and though fun is a goal to achieve it isn't a ubiquitous standard. Having different rules is fine, but selectively targeting should be something we don't allow anymore. Tournaments are events players come in to win at: that's the fun.

What do I propose? Coming into 2020 we should all at least agree on a few things if we are to engage each other in-game. We can keep our trisected community right now because those are issues that are beyond just PVP. What we could do is try to focus our players into adopting some sort of mind-frame where if you are to ENGAGE in PVP that the rules you create should be fair to everyone involved (all consenting parties). I'm not suggesting a universal rule set but a universal brand of honor. Where we endorse more healthy outlets of neutral tournament play and look for fraudulent behavior when it appears. We don't have to go around ratting on each other, but those in the scene no matter where they are to protect each other even if we're on different sides of the aisles and protect our brand.

Shout outs to Mickle, KD, and Bawdy back in the vanilla servers
Props to Sex and XKS for making clans a thing now
and naturally those who compete in CBL regardless if you are in A3, XKS, SEX, or even neutrals.

[Salt Powerplant (MGO)]

I'd especially like to bring awareness to this quote:
"For too long the word "fun" has been used as a catch-all to deny others the chance to play properly and fairly."

Everyone knows that "fun" is subjective to the personal views of whoever plays in the community. This "fun" can range from just simply making content, to playing the game and its mods, interacting with the individual communities surrounding the base game and mods, and so on. However, this does not mean that just saying a mod or game is "fun" doesn't relinquish it of its current issues, even if subjective. People like myself view fun in ways that other people would not fit their criteria of "fun", such as seeing oversights in mods that cause unintended side effects, using characters that are unbalanced at that instance and so on.  As so, the actual meaning of "fun" loses its reasoning due to it being so vastly different over players among the 8bdm community as a whole, which is why I feel especially important for mods and such to be properly adjusted, even if it was meant for shits and giggles.

[Zapper514]

I would like to say that the tournament was more of a close to arms thing, supposed to stay still, alone and jazz. Until one person from the clan decided to invite someone else. I mean, it was also the hosts tournament, not yours. To others perspectives they can vary heavily . Not to cause any sort of argument, however this post was to ridicule the host, even saying at the beginning of the tournament, that it was his first time ever doing something like this.

Note, I was a participant. NOT the host.

To state one final thing, in 2020, Tournaments should be hosted, with the RULESET, and MIND, of the HOST. Not a STANDARD, made by someone who creates some of the most formal tournaments. It would allow most players to play or choose what they'd like to play. Do not ridicule or make fun of the host for doing such a poor job, as he said, this was his first time. Your really not allowed to make final decisions without partaking or joining.

I say we do not have standards, and the rules are made by the host. It is dependent on the player, and hosts relations/backround.

Hope you have a nice rest of your night or day.

[Nappa Habiki]

Mobius for president 2020
But for real, its less about the future of fun (even though what is still being said is true) but more on the split in the community.
For many years that this place existed there has been this irrationally hostile mentality against clans. At this point, the cutstuff community has walled themselves off the rest of the community and frankly the rest of the player base. What is very interesting about this is that the outside of this wall plays more and get to understand the game more. They also get to settle differences more openly on the outside than the inside, where its not only stomped out, but only allows a only sided conversation and creates some nasty fabrications. To show for this, people on the inside impose what gameplay should be like on the outside, but its like yelling to the wind and nothing from that closed mentality has lasted since Saxton hale except CCBM. Made by dedicated dudes that play often .
Even though CCBM and A3 itself is very open to all concerns, nobody goes to the side to get anything from them, assuming A3 is the walled community that will kick or gang on anybody out.
And yet... no one tries or cares enough to do so, but care enough to tell people to avoid any clan members.

I'm going to be frank: I simply want this mentality to change

[Nappa Habiki]

I would like to say that the tournament was more of a close to arms thing, supposed to stay still, alone and jazz. Until one person from the clan decided to invite someone else.

To state one final thing, in 2020, Tournaments should be hosted, with the RULESET, and MIND, of the HOST. Not a STANDARD, made by someone who creates some of the most formal tournaments..

I say we do not have standards, and the rules are made by the host. It is dependent on the player, and hosts relations/backround.

Hope you have a nice rest of your night or day.

I heard that the rules were edited on the spot to nerf the player. Any word on what that was ? just asking

[Mobius]

I would like to say that the tournament was more of a close to arms thing, supposed to stay still, alone and jazz. Until one person from the clan decided to invite someone else. I mean, it was also the hosts tournament, not yours. To others perspectives they can vary heavily . Not to cause any sort of argument, however this post was to ridicule the host, even saying at the beginning of the tournament, that it was his first time ever doing something like this.

It's a done issue and what he did is what he did. It was unsportsmenlike and bad form. Clan or not someone shouldn't be discriminated against and if the host didn't want a player to play then just remove them.

To state one final thing, in 2020, Tournaments should be hosted, with the RULESET, and MIND, of the HOST. Not a STANDARD, made by someone who creates some of the most formal tournaments. It would allow most players to play or choose what they'd like to play. Do not ridicule or make fun of the host for doing such a poor job, as he said, this was his first time. Your really not allowed to make final decisions without partaking or joining.

On the contrary: I think tournament host should not be above scrutiny. The host of a tournament can make any rules he likes and it's up to the players to decide whether or not they should participate: This is fair. What isn't fair is making rules up mid tournament when there wasn't any and cripple a whole team because the host was afraid of one team winning.

We, as a community, have to judge and look out for that fraudulent behavior. It doesn't help anything or anyone. All it does is show others who are active what happens when they step foot in the turf of other people: they are going to get fleeced, lied to, and cheated out of a fair experience. What example does this show to others outside of this community who want to participate? That we don't play fair? That's unreal and doesn't represent us.

I think a lot of us players who are in the scene should look out for each other and call out what we see and probably not joining shady venues.

[Zapper514]

So why did you not kick the player out? why did you just nerf him until he lost? what did you gain from this?

Both players forced way into,
and host, wanted it to feel included.

Simply said, this wasn't to cause arguments.

[Zapper514]

It's a done issue and what he did is what he did. It was unsportsmenlike and bad form. Clan or not someone shouldn't be discriminated against and if the host didn't want a player to play then just remove them.

On the contrary: I think tournament host should not be above scrutiny. The host of a tournament can make any rules he likes and it's up to the players to decide whether or not they should participate: This is fair. What isn't fair is making rules up mid tournament when there wasn't any and cripple a whole team because the host was afraid of one team winning.

We, as a community, have to judge and look out for that fraudulent behavior. It doesn't help anything or anyone. All it does is show others who are active what happens when they step foot in the turf of other people: they are going to get fleeced, lied to, and cheated out of a fair experience. What example does this show to others outside of this community who want to participate? That we don't play fair? That's unreal and doesn't represent us.

I think a lot of us players who are in the scene should look out for each other and call out what we see and probably not joining shady venues.

Question, Why do you care? It was in turn support to be a close-group tour. Once an outside or someone of the such joins, what would you do? what if it was someone you disliked, who was better than you joins in? its like a middle school argument

Second. You can judge all you want, but at the same time, people can keep you views, when you disturb them. This is how this all started. It also doesn't help that, you who are banned from TSPG for using a diffrent client is in form, you are quite notorious or infamous for doing so. And everything you speak about, or involve yourself with, always has to do with a said scene from Comp. This was a CLOSED END TOURNAMENT, not a PUBLIC.

You can judge, but everyone will still have their opinions.

[Nappa Habiki]

Both players forced way into,
and host, wanted it to feel included.

Simply said, this wasn't to cause arguments.

 

when you disturb them. This is how this all started. It also doesn't help that, you who are banned from TSPG for using a diffrent client is in form, you are quite notorious or infamous for doing so. And everything you speak about, or involve yourself with, always has to do with a said scene from Comp.

I would advise against bringing irrelevant factors, if not causing arguments were your true intentions.

[Mobius]

Question, Why do you care?

Why should I not care? My position in this community allows me some proclivity involving tournament matters not because just the parties involved, but the entire scene in general. I've been the chairman of the practicality that is formal PVP play now for 8bdm -- in particular, CBM/CCBM. I care because it sets a bad precedent especially now at the most sensitive time: a lot of tournaments are happening. This is a great opportunity to showcase ourselves in a positive light and when I see fraudulent behavior my immediate reaction is to correct it. We have to if we're going to take advantage of such a good opportunity: more tournaments = more activity.

It was in turn support to be a close-group tour. Once an outside or someone of the such joins, what would you do? what if it was someone you disliked, who was better than you joins in? its like a middle school argument

False premise. Class Based League had a whole team better than my team in Season 1 (EazyDI, Saviorsword, and RIP Levi) and they weren't barred from using specific classes, had mid-game rules made, or even discriminated against for being better. They were allowed to compete and won against me in the finals. They have gold statues commissioned by MD representing their victory with a role on both CCBM and CBL's discord for Robot Masters. Saviorsword, despite what people say, is a guest star on the CBL livestream and I do value his opinion during those streams (due to his insight on players).

So no. I would have not done things the same because I haven't and I never will. I put true PVP first.

Second. You can judge all you want, but at the same time, people can keep you views, when you disturb them. This is how this all started.

This was over a tournament I won't disclosed and players getting a raw deal.

It also doesn't help that, you who are banned from TSPG for using a diffrent client is in form, you are quite notorious or infamous for doing so.

First, irrelevant. Second, fictitious. I was banned from TSPG's discord for calling certain types of south Americans monkies. Please be factual and relevant if you want to fling mud, or just move it to DMs as I would like to keep this more civil.

And everything you speak about, or involve yourself with, always has to do with a said scene from Comp. This was a CLOSED END TOURNAMENT, not a PUBLIC.

You can judge, but everyone will still have their opinions.

Nothing stops the host from just not allowing certain players in. They let them in under intense stipulations and those stipulations got worst throughout the tournament beyond what was already agreed to. It's fraudulent no matter if it was public or private. That is the problem I have with it and an issue we, as a community, should inspect much more closely.

[falco]

god zapper just shut up

[Pr. Gibberoni]

To quote a neckbeard-bearing reddit admin, "Yikes."

I was actually one of the two fellas who was given the short end of the stick during the tourney today, and I gotta agree with what Mobius here is saying. Tournaments, regardless of skill gaps or whatnot, should always stay true to whatever rules you're setting out to accomplish. Even if it isnt even a serious tournament, you should still never change up rules or anything for no reason than other to handicape better players, end of question. That being said, I'm not entirely opposed to silly rules as long as it is in:
A. a casual setting.
B. within agreement from EVERYONE involved.
If you want a CBM Maestro-only tournament? By all means, I'm not gonna stop you. However, if you're making someone go Maestro because you want it to be "fun" for you, then its downright discriminatory to do such a thing.

tl;dr everything that Mobius said but I get to play the victim card

[CutmanMike]

god zapper just shut up

Don't post here if this is all you're gonna add to the discussion, thanks.