Stardust's Workshop

[MrL1193]

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GOSM having both his slice and his meteor are redundant and more of a waste. people are gonna use the meteor in every scenario. the slice is more of a waste of time, and coding space. when you can throw a rock at a person's head from a safe distance, vs getting in close to slap their faces around, what are you really going to do?

The slash isn't meant to be his main attack; it's mainly there so that people can't camp out under a low ledge and laugh at Starman's futile attempts to get his meteors to land on them.

why does hale himself have no real change. new skin, new hud, less damage. Oh and pretty twilight sparkles when he rages. Saxton hale, who the mod is named after, is probably the most bland and unneeded hale now, with how everyone else is setup. Even clunky derpy Moocho Mun has more abilities then hale himself. The only thing that makes him stand out is how he (probably?) gets the most health, which doesnt do him much good other then stall matches.

I think we can allow for at least one "simple" boss--one boss that you don't have to read the instruction manual to know how to use. Besides, Saxton himself is more or less staying true to his TF2 roots.

On the subject of Dio Flash, the most common attitude toward him that I've encountered on servers seems to be, "Dio is OP, but I still like him this way." I've already voiced my own opinions on him in servers, but I'd like to reiterate my earlier suggestion: Promote Dio to Secret Boss status and leave his power level where it was before. You've already mentioned that you tried to make the secret bosses somewhat more challenging than the average boss and Dio already seems to meet that criteria (at least before the most recent nerf; I haven't seen much of him since then), so why not let him fill that role instead? To me, at least, it would certainly feel like more of a "reward" than getting stomped on by giant feet or encountering one of two relics from a bygone Saxton era who honestly aren't all that interesting to fight anyway. (Neo's battle theme is the best thing about him, really; Talbain can pull off the dash-'n-slash far more effectively.)

[Stardust]

Music for my posts too, hurr durrr -- not fitting but eh

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@alex

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Now I see why no one else speaks up on the forums. Take whatever  [...] having the ability to talk other than to socialize about meaningless matters or kiss each other's arses?

yo, you're not forced to post, if all what you want is to spread your hate toward the mod, you can keep your hostility for yourself, I don't need you to shove it down my throat. You make it sound like I'm *supposed* to apply your whims, except your SH version isn't the best model to follow. A real useful post would look like the last ones SJB posted, it's also more pleasing to read if it's being said nicely, and not with aggressiveness.
The same rules apply in real life and on the internet, for what's being made on the internet is made by humans of the actual RL society
Don't assume the internet acts as a kind of unbreakable shield where people are located far away from each other ; my bro' found one of your Facebook posts in an Otaku page, and oh boy it was some antihuman/social things you were saying (well, you know what I'm referring to)
Respect me and I'll respect you, simple as that

butttttt now concerning the topic again.

@LD

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FIRST: Stardust going solo over a few incidents, that yes, started with me.

Most werk is being done in PM, the devteam is still here but mostly talks in PM with me. Either way we're to v2ehh already, and get some relax after all these updates, except if there's a major thing that needs to be fixed (I'm aware for instance Thor ++ can rekt his own minions, and the minions themselves can rekt other minions, but this would mean another sub-sub-hotfix), both I and Tails grew a bit tired actually of SH all day erryday, Tails has moved on to a Mission mode-type project (he posted a screenshot of this spikey enemy from GB Cutman lately to show progress) (yet he's still joinable and we still discuss about what's going on in SH occasionally), and on my own I'm slowly getting closer to random Megaman-related projects, like the mapping compo, justified/ (and justiderp), doing personnal projects too... SH rose high enough, our aim wasn't to kill MM8BDM, neither :( we're turning down the servers for days sometimes.

tl;dr the devteam is kind of "scatterred" even if we're still in contact, but at the same time SH being overrated/overplayed gives us less interest in working on it

Second: While this mod claimed to take a new view on hales, its still the same thing with more clunkiness.

yes and no
rather no though

Supermachoman is basically a charge and attack version of saxton hale. With the added benefit of stunning.

Macho Man isn't a space flying japanese mech which can transform into a car or a UFO and send rockets on the Earth unfortunately, it's just a boxer. His melee system was designed to be a melee, because there's no way to make a boxer uses something else than his punches ; but at the same time, making it different than a SH fist.
These differences of Macho Man include guarding, a speed boost, a recovering system (which makes him more a healthy hale than a powerful one), a stunning attack that allows to combo with the main uppercut, an uppercut that can be charged, and his attacks propulse him forward ; those are enough differences that make Macho Man not a simple old melee stereotype, and change your strategies when fighting him

Third: GOSM having both his slice and his meteor are redundant and more of a waste.

If you keep using the meteor I'mok with this, actually the most important reason for the slicing was 3D floors where the meteor would crash into the ceiling

Fourth:Again, going back to how this mod claimed to be a different take on hale, why does hale himself have no real change.

I upgraded already the older hales while my aim was to make some new ones ; if you ask some players' opinion I bet they'd prefer new hales instead of old hales edit, too. If you think about it Saxton Hale has a reason to be the "main", "base" hale : it's the model hale, the best of the generic melees. If there's no generic melee hale it's not good ol SH anymore

Fifth: Why make pissed off rolls a regular hale, then hide it? She needs some work or a new rage, but cmon, you dont need to hide her.

Too much complains -- even when she's selected as one of the 3 secret hales you can still hear some "bawww" or "fuck" or "not her again" or "not that OP hale" or "y no gamma feet", she's still the only hale which has a rage mostly focused on healing, in this case I'd prefer her to keep the Silversin concept and keep the regen, and thus leaving her in the secret hales column

Sixth: Neods pls.

>:I

Seventh: Gamma feet. Even for a joke boss, its still more useful and fun then saxton hale himself. But even then there are severe limitations. The feet's views are screwy in small spaces, and their attacks are far less effective in said spaces. Their slow speed makes it worse on larger maps. But again its a joke boss, so i cant really say its too much of an issue.

Yea also lately all the secret hales were buffed to make them a bit more OP and special ; the gamma feet's buff was a speed boost increasing. You can't see shiz below you, but you're guarantee to kill someone by crushing if he/she's so close to you, you can't even see him/her

Eighth: Akuma pls. I cant tell if hes a joke or serious. Hes not that tanky or powerful in his game series, so why does he get to be a god here? Even unholy's takes on akuma are possible to kill, and the bosses in that mod refuse to die.

Mathematically you can kill him, but Gouki* (not Akuma) isn't like any other hale, it's Gouki, it's like a super saiyan. It's just, "balancing" Gouki seems so incompatible. He extremely rarely pops-up in the mod, but if you don't enjoy being rekt by him in the very obscure occasions he appears, you shouldn't play Paper Mario 64 as that's how the intro battle works
though I herd u were good at telefragging

Ninth: You've always said you'll "think" about them, but you never really did. you just brushed it off. Its wrong, and its lead to hales and classes being unbalanced, and, the worst of it, to super macho man..

why are the classes and macho man unbalanced?

Tenth: Tomahawk talbain's old darkness was fine. at least you could still see. But why the hell did you make it total blackout? Before you even say theres the automap function, let me inform you that on maps like brightman, the automap does nothing to benefit you.. It doesnt tell you where theres pit, or where the boss is at. Total blackout isnt fun, especially since its lead me over a pit quite a number of times. that needs to be seriously adjusted.

Total darkness was mesured for the first version of SHR++ already, and I thought everyone was seeing a black screen ; the main reason is to prevent gamma abuse, because this would ignore the darkness and so, you'd make the battle unfair (because Talbain's health is lower due to the darkness helping him). Right now it stays perfectly black for about 1.5 and this every 12 seconds or so, it's not that impossible to fight. It's not like you are stunned, you simply need to draw the road you're going to follow for one second (because a standing still target has less chance of surviving)

Eleventh: Classes: Tank aka Duo's resistance to damage is random. more random then whos gonna get what boss overall in the mod and any saxton hale branch. It can and cant survive a za warudo (im not even gonna talk about dio flash and why hes a thing), it can take a punch and it cant. Not to mention with the reverse knockback, you can get sent flying into a pit, or a dead end, making that slow speed and extra resistance worth nothing. Not many hale shots trigger it however, they always just widdle the tank's hp down to nothing regardless of what he does. curly wont trigger it at all, so if you see curly, run. owait, i mean crawl away slowly. On the up side, his duo fist, fully charged, deals alot.. pending you can even land the hit with the slow shot.

Duo's invulnerability is mostly an extra inherited from Silversin's version ; 160 HP already makes him way more resistant than normal classes and with a Medic around it can take years to defeat him (Roll heals better the Tanks than the other classes). It's not like every map is MM1BOM and you're always fighting in the outside portion

Twelfth: Medic aka roll aka MEDIC/DOKTA. I question the purpose of a medic sometimes. Shes useful against bosses like curly/quote. but when you come against hales like GOSM, or Dio flash, does she even need to exist? Not only does her heal bar run out quickly, and regens painfully slow, but she's also a popular target for hales, making her the first to go. So is her real job to be a medic? or target practice? Her buster is faster then megaman's and deals the same damage, so when you get drain/spread it works out nicely. Instead of her current painful setup, have her regen quicker, but she can only get half her original ammo back.

She wasn't even supposed to regen, the concept was to prevent stalling here. If she would have a low starting ammo but regen quickly, she would never run out of ammo due to the faster recovering. The idea was to give her a solid basis (a full bar can heal about 250-300 HP, the ammo might be buffed though), and a low/almost no recover when she used all the ammo, rightly to prevent stalling
Also it makes sense to me that focusing the healer is a common and approved technique in gaming
That doesn't mean you can't damage the other players in the process, and that's where Roll acts, and that's how offensive/defensive classes work together

Fifteenth: Speedster... yea.. weaker megaman? that shoots faster? with the rof, hes probably more effective then megaman to be perfectly honest. He doesnt build up too much rage either for a rapid fire class, so he kinda gets away with being an upgrade that can stall with the right tactics.

The worst case scenario would be Gilga VS Speedster, but hey against distant hales like Thor++, Cave Johnson, Cave Story, or even Remilia since she's faster than him, Bass isn't as effective as it seems (the ATK nerf is noticeable, the best example is that Hard Knuckles deals 70 damage originally. 70 * 0.7 =  49 damage for Bass)

Sixteenth: Runes. Drain. why drain. Drain is terrible. its a blessing for whoever gets it, but its so unnecessary, and game breaking in some cases. Get yourself a nice camp and drain, and the hales done. no chance. this gets worse when you have either speedster or medic, who can recover quicker because of their rof. And resistance is kind of pointless to some hales, again, dio flash. Is it just me, or did dio flash get all the love? or some of it went to UNRM and SMM and remilia as well...

If the draining is bothering, don't let it happen. While offensive runes increase your power, Drain will makes you more resistant in defense. It's all up to dodging for the hale player, and to be honest it doesn't matter if you're a close-ranged boss like SH or something more distant like Cave Johnson. Both can take 70% of your health in a single hit, so overwhelm the draining survivor with the power of melee (since most melee hales are fast, they have great dodging skills), or stalk with distant attacks if you're afraid to get hit. Drain isn't that threatening, I think a good old Spread is way better. I admit though again that Bass vs Gilgamesh can be tricky but that's again the worst scenario (better rocket punching Bass)
Don't forget some rages can OHKO and Drain won't help here

Seventeenth: Remilia. Remilia. Remilia.... Shes the fastest hale, the most flexible, and she can ohko better then any other melee hale, not counting dio. She has a rage that would make a pinball machine cry. Shes basically a death sentence to anyone whos not alert 200%. and even then, its a low chance they'll survive one or two encounters with remilia. that speed allows her to, and excuse me for this, throttle anyone in the behind or front without giving two fucks. Remilia needs a speed nerf as well as an adjustment on her... throttling to match the theme of the rest of the melee hales.

Yeah her melee can hurt a lot, it's supposed to do 22*4 for a max of 88 damage on a perfect melee streak but sometimes it does 22*5 for some reasons. Her range tho, Starman's slicing was already the shortest melee, Remilia's is even shorter. She might receive a few tweaks and/or nerfs to her speed or to her melee damage just so it can't OHKO anymore for sure. When activating rage mode, she has like two or three seconds of prosperity before she's able to shoot the bullets ; when in rage mode, her speed is like halved, too. My advise to counter her rage : it's very environmental. You should stay around narrow, hidden areas as Remilia can't create danmakus in small corridors (a very good niche for instance is near to the location of Mega Ball in MM1DW1). Hide in corners, where she's unlikey to find you, neither could the bullets.

Eighteenth: Unknown robot master is, for the most part, balenced out since his debut.. except for hot heads and sniper armor. they still need an hp nerf, and hothead fires should have less homing abilities or less speed. But for the most part, hes semi-ok... that rage though makes it cheap for the last person alive.

IKR about the rage but I promise if you spin around the hale in circles you'll get minimal damage even when alone. We did the test with Celebi with the current power and I couldn't even take 30 HP away. The rage still lasts fairly shortly so it's bearable
I'll reduce the tackle fires' speed den, yet Hot Head is the easiest summon to hit as he's just standing there without any protection

Nineteenth: Dio flash. we do not talk about dio flash. Dio flash is a pain. dio flash is love. Dio flash is life. Dio flash wont fucking die.

manliness ga taosenai

Twentieth: Over all, this mod needs to be seriously reworked in some aspects and Stardust will need help in order to do so. i can make a complete and actual list for what i see needs fixing/reworking, apart from what i mentioned here. Stardust, ill say this as a past friend: Get your old team back, and start listening to others. If you want this mod to actually succeed, work with people, not against them.

I do listen, but I can refuse. The mod isn't that unbalanced tho ; the hale/survivor winning ratio has progressed since the OHKO melee era

@MrL

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On the subject of Dio Flash, the most common attitude toward him that I've encountered on servers seems to be, "Dio is OP, but I still like him this way." I've already voiced my own opinions on him in servers, but I'd like to reiterate my earlier suggestion: Promote Dio to Secret Boss status and leave his power level where it was before. You've already mentioned that you tried to make the secret bosses somewhat more challenging than the average boss and Dio already seems to meet that criteria (at least before the most recent nerf; I haven't seen much of him since then), so why not let him fill that role instead? To me, at least, it would certainly feel like more of a "reward" than getting stomped on by giant feet or encountering one of two relics from a bygone Saxton era who honestly aren't all that interesting to fight anyway. (Neo's battle theme is the best thing about him, really; Talbain can pull off the dash-'n-slash far more effectively.)

But I wonder, neither PORoll or Dio were supposed to be "secret", the secret hales are just here as extra, so the game has its own secrets hidden and isn't only a "more hales every update".
Dio Flash was nerfed last version, but very slightly (if you want accurate informations his Warudo's punch was 19-ripping and became 16-ripping)
That would still be four hales considered as secrets, you need 5 perfects to get one of them, with 1/4 of chance to receive the one you desired... they're mostly considered as special rewards, at the beginning I didn't wanted to make them simple stronger hales, Gouki does this job greatly enough. They're like, easter eggs. In Punch Out Wii for instance, there's a "secret" boxer, which is... DK, and not Mike Tyson (correct me if there's a Mike Tyson hidden somewhere in Punchout Wii). It sounds more like fanservice (this being said DK is stronger than Mr Sandman, the final boss), but my point is that,
the secret boxer is a gorilla from another very famous series instead of Mike Tyson, like he used to be present on the NES.
Besides Dio will be missed if you remove him from the main hale category, he's one of the most appreciated characters in SHR++ :/ if he's that powerful, what about keeping the power and nerfing his "defensive" stats? So he keeps being swaggypowerful, and would be more fair because weaker when it comes to taking hits and stuff

[Ceridran]

why does hale himself have no real change. new skin, new hud, less damage. Oh and pretty twilight sparkles when he rages. Saxton hale, who the mod is named after, is probably the most bland and unneeded hale now, with how everyone else is setup. Even clunky derpy Moocho Mun has more abilities then hale himself. The only thing that makes him stand out is how he (probably?) gets the most health, which doesnt do him much good other then stall matches.

I think we can allow for at least one "simple" boss--one boss that you don't have to read the instruction manual to know how to use. Besides, Saxton himself is more or less staying true to his TF2 roots.

Scrooge McDuck is probably more fun that Saxton Hale with the addition of Pogo Cane.
I almost feel like we're shaming the character Saxton Hale by keeping him at this point.

ALSO HAVE A REMINDER THAT "ZA WARUDO" OR RATHER "THE WORLD" IS THE NAME OF DIO'S STAND AND NOT QUITE THE TIME STOP ABILITY'S NAME

though it's The World's power to stop time so ok

TOKI WA TOMARE



.. Hey, I have a question; in this mod, when people shoot The World, will Dio Flash take damage as well? That's how all stands work.

[LarissaFlash]

Yeah , the stand IS the one that has to take damage, not Dio.

[Linnie]

You know, if people dislike a gimmick enough that they'll mess with their computer settings to not have to endure that gimmick, I think that's a sign that maybe the gimmick isn't very enjoyable, not a sign to make the gimmick even more annoying. Just my two cents on that line of thought.

[Rozark]

You know, if people dislike a gimmick enough that they'll mess with their computer settings to not have to endure that gimmick, I think that's a sign that maybe the gimmick isn't very enjoyable, not a sign to make the gimmick even more annoying. Just my two cents on that line of thought.

Enough people both like and dislike it Linnie. You can't please everyone.

[LordDamager]

Im not here to take a "stab" at star, as you people think. im pointing out several issues here that were not being handled. nevertheless, im not going to continue with this. if you want to just assume that im only trying to troll instead of actually give helpful advice, then ill just drop it here. I only wanted to point out things that could be done to improve it, not put down the mod again. Oh well, no point in beating a dead horse.

[MrL1193]

The issue I have with the current secret bosses is that it's difficult to get them to appear (or, at the very least, it takes many rounds to get lucky enough times), but when they do appear, they just don't feel like much of a "reward." Like you said, the secret bosses should be something special, something to look forward to, but I just don't get that feeling from the main three.


Berserk Roll, as another Saxton clone, doesn't feel like anything special, and now that rage is based on HP, she's even less interesting. I won't go off into how I dislike her as a character idea again, but I know there are others who feel the same way. There are also those who like her, but I still don't think exciting half of the players and annoying or enraging the other half is very good job performance for a secret boss.

Neo DS isn't much better in terms of gameplay and he still seems to have durability issues. Some people still hate the character idea for being a power trip for Neo; I don't because I wasn't around to see the original drama, but I can understand why some would hate him.

Gamma's Feet...ugh. Before, they were giant, slow damage sponges that took way too long to kill and would usually win just by tiring out opponents. (Ever tried beating a near-dead foot and a healthy one all by yourself, just using the non-upgraded Duo Fist? It takes forever and it's not fun.) The last update seems to have made them faster, but their gameplay can still be awkward at times, as others have mentioned (though I do think they're more interesting than Roll or Neo). And, of course, as character ideas, you either like them and think they're funny or you don't. (I don't.)

Akuma is the one secret boss who really feels like he fills the role well, but he's incredibly rare. He's also practically unbeatable (unless he gets telefragged...or falls into one of Duora's many custom pits :l). Mind you, both those things are fitting for the resident "secret secret boss," but the rarity means he doesn't get to do much, really.



This is where Dio comes in. Dio is quite a well-received boss overall; the only problem is that he's too powerful. But the thing is, he's kind of like Akuma to a small extent in that his power seems to contribute to his status in a way. I actually do understand when people admit that he's OP but still don't want him nerfed. Turning Dio into more of a glass cannon would help put him on the same level as other bosses, but it would also make him feel a bit less impressive when he just gets mobbed and destroyed, you know? (Not to mention the fact that he needs quite of lot of HP to get his rage.) Turning him into a secret boss would allow us to get the best of both worlds; he could still be powerful and impressive (though still beatable, unlike Akuma), but he would be doing his thing in a more appropriate way. I admit that I would be a little sad not to see him as much, but at least he could still be the fun and extra-challenging boss people liked before, and if anything, people would be even more pleased to see him when he does show up this way. (Perhaps you could turn one of the other secret bosses--maybe Roll or Neo--into a regular boss instead? Even if they do show up more often, I think it would be preferable to treating them like "rewards" when they're quite the opposite for some people.)



Anyway, I don't know if you'll make the change to Dio or not. (It seems like you're reluctant to do so.) But I'd at least like to say that I hope we can get better secret bosses than the ones we have now (aside from Akuma).

[TailsMK4]

I'm not Star, but upon reading about the recent discussion regarding turning Dio into a secret boss...I was neutral about the idea until MrL started talking about why he should be a secret boss, and to be honest, I think I'm kind of sold on the idea. I think the mod's secret bosses should be Dio Flash (and this gives him a good excuse to get buffed a bit), Gamma's feet, and Akuma. It was interesting seeing Roll and NeoDS return, but it's been proven many times that neither concept was working out that well, and to be honest I get disappointed when Roll shows up after what seems to be like 30-50 battles or so before a secret boss appears. I think it's time to finally put Roll and NeoDS to rest, and make getting a secret boss actually exciting for once. Heck, people have actually suicided or spectated just before a boss is defeated that normally would count as a perfect, so perfects are not that easy to obtain. I think the current count of 5 is perfect at this time. At least it isn't 3 in a row.

That said, I don't think this mod is going to get updated for a while, but it's an interesting thought. I personally think it's worth experimenting with, but ultimately it's Star's call here since I'm not in development anymore.

[SmashTheEchidna]

I'm not Star either, and I can't say that I'm really a(n important) member of the devteam either. But as someone who has watched Jojo's Bizarre Adventure, I fully support Dio's role as a secret boss.

[Dr. Freeman]

I kind of think the exact opposite should happen. Currently there are a lot of outright boring hales in the game (Gilgamesh with his crap hitbox, All of the incredibly boring cut/paste from TF2 bosses) and they just don't much. Dio has always been (at least in my opinion) one of the very interesting hales as he's a challenge, and has different ways to avoid him than other hales. Instead of just moving Dio aside, it would make everything a lot more interesting if the other hales were buffed up to his level of interesting design, challenge, and fun.

...Ok, maybe not all the way up to how hard it is to defeat a Dio, but around that area.

[Hallan Parva]

Might as well complain about Gilgamesh publicly seeing as how he was brought up.


You removed the multi-sword mechanic that made Gilgamesh stand out from the crowd of "hey look mommy I have a boring melee"... and then give him a stunning Jump to make it easier to connect with his melee? Like okay, the stun would've made sense if Gilgamesh still had his other swords, as the stun time would've made up for the probability of drawing a "lesser" sword (Masamune or Excalipoor). As it stands, however, the stun does nothing but infuriate whoever's hit by it, and Gilgamesh's always-on Excalibur is so powerful you don't even need the stun most of the time. Heck, I'm not even sure why Jump has a stun effect; it was supposed to explode, but I guess it was changed to avoid getting in the way of your precious Scrooge McDuck. (Speaking of which, why is his rage obituary still "kicked out of the party"? They're Robo-Ducks now. There isn't a moon party anymore.)

I agree with diversifying the other bosses and bringing them up to Dio's standard. I always enjoy seeing Dio show up; I can't quite place it, but there's something immensely satisfying about playing as Dio and fighting against Dio. His improved jump height lets him get around some maps like Bomb Man and Dr. Cossack's Citadel without having to use his somewhat-awkward super jump; at the same time, that awkward leap briefly stops players around him, which may disorient them a bit and make it easier to land a hit on them. His attack also has two different modes: a tap attack that throws the stand, and a charge attack which adds multiple hits and increases the stand's range. That alone adds this unique shift in gameplay when Dio gets rolled as a boss. The tap attack is fast and Dio's stand comes back to him rather quickly; on the flip side, the punch barrage has much more power and range, but leaves Dio himself vulnerable for a significant amount of time. Both Dio and the other players have to try and predict each other's moves, which creates this interesting counter-duel strategy instead of the usual "run forward and swing your melee repeatedly" seen in so many of this mode's other bosses.


tl;dr - Make the other hales interesting like Dio, don't banish Dio to the secret boss dimension, bring back Gilgamesh's other swords.
y'know it was kind of a slap in the face to have Gilgamesh gutted out the same version I bring you guys his voice clips :<

[MrL1193]

It would be just lovely if every single boss could be made as interesting as Dio, but that's a lot easier said than done. :?

I want you to realize that I didn't just pick out Dio for this purpose because he's an interesting boss. Nor am I using "secret boss" as an excuse for any boss or gimmick which is considered unfair. (You don't see me recommending that we kick Talbain upstairs so people will stop complaining about the darkness.) I suggested Dio in particular because he's in a very unique position: Everyone agrees he's overly difficult, but even though that would normally result in application of the nerf hammer, people still don't want to see that happen because he's just too fun as it is. (I think even Freeman touched on this a bit in his post.)

The thing is, that level of challenge (for the survivors, mind you) that's part of why he's fun simply isn't acceptable for a normal boss. A normal boss is supposed to provide a fair fight--that is, all things being equal, the boss should win roughly 50% of the time. So if you want to keep the higher level of challenge that Dio provides, the only appropriate way to do it that I can see is to make him a secret boss instead, because those guys aren't bound by the fairness rule.

There's also the matter of making secret bosses actually feel like rewards. I can see why you would want to fight an interesting boss as often as possible, but the thing is, if you just carry that idea to its logical extreme, you're going to end up with the worst bosses taking up the "secret boss" roster. Instead of being rewards for good survivor play (or plain old patience), the "secret bosses" instead become the reject pile, comprised of all the lame bosses that weren't interesting and popular enough to join the normal boss society and show up on a regular basis. It would feel like a total slap in the face to be told that you get to fight a "secret boss," only to meet a boss that no one wanted to see in the first place. Even though it may pain us to see good bosses less often, I really think it's only appropriate that they be the secret rewards, not the rejects.



I find it interesting that even though everyone regards Akuma as being "teh coolest," no one's asking for him to be brought down to normal boss status. It makes me wonder what people would be saying now if Dio had been a secret boss from the start. Would you guys be clamoring for him to be brought down to normal because no "good" boss should be limited to such rare appearances?

[Dr. Freeman]

No one's clamoring for Akuma because he has 1 million HP or something. Dio doesn't really seem that overly challenging really. It isn't a 50-50 for sure, but it isn't a 90-10 in the Hale's favor either.

The same thing applies though. Secret bosses are secret, you rarely seem them show up. So why would you make the normal bosses all the boring ones? A secret boss should feel like an accomplishment yes, but you don't want to actually accomplish that if all your bosses are "look at me ma I'm exactly like Saxton himself just with a different face!!11"

[Linnie]

Since Scrooge got brought up by Smash, I have to ask something that's been bugging me, why doesn't Robo-Duck have any rotations yet? I'm perturbed by how long that's taking; the lack of rotations makes the rage awful aesthetically, and it feels like it shouldn't've replaced Moby in its unfinished state.

Also that Amazon music is unfitting, I told SJB over and over how unfitting it was and he still pushed it and now it's in and it is just so unfitting.

I also agree on tricking Gilgamesh out a bit. I actually didn't have much of an opinion for it in the old days since there was less variation in general, but it feels like standards have been raised since then and Gilgamesh could use that random weaponry to stand out.