Why I don't like Saxton Hale in MM8BDM

[MusashiAA]

Anything Goes

Talk about anything. Keep it clean and don't post pointless crap. Topics without any hope of becoming a relatively sane discussion will be locked/deleted.

I'll start off this rant with that, just so it doesn't fly over your head.



This is going to be a rant about why I don't like the Saxton Hale modifications in MM8BDM: not an specific deviation, just the general kind of Saxton Hale mods that are apparently wildly popular nowadays. We all know how the story's going: most active servers are those that host a Saxton Hale variation, or a mixture of Saxton Hale with another less popular modification, MM8BDM is doomed, ban Saxton Hale but not really because that's mean, cabbage. Ok.

I guess I'm forcing myself to tackle some things before going straight into saying why I don't like the mod, such as how the community, specially the veteran players, perceives it. It usually goes like this: "it's overplayed, and it's hogging the player base". To make it simple, that is a matter of how MM8BDM servers are moderated. Not in the sense of bans and kicks and whatnot, but rather how they're hosted and set in the playability sense, but that's another story. What I want to focus on is to why Saxton Hale is seen by some as bad, and try to give my own thoughts regarding that.

To begin with, Saxton Hale breaks the game's context. Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch is a Zandronum engine modification of a NES Capcom series called "Mega Man". Not only dowe have Doom 2's gameplay mechanics, lore and characters to meddle with, but also can introduce NES-styled, Capcom's and Mega Man's gameplay mechanics, lore and characters. Saxton Hale is a Source engine modification of a Valve game called "Team Fortress 2". It has its own context: namely theming, gameplay mechanics and characters. Shoehorning one into the other inevitably clashes for the worst. It makes no more sense than "it's Saxton Hale on MM8BDM". Ghouls vs Humans NES fits, YDClasses fits, Contramod fits, Mission Mode fits: Saxton Hale does not, and didn't try to.

On another note, the criteria used for choosing characters, attacks, game mechanics and what not is wild territory. Translating characters like Saxton Hale, Ninja Spy, Slenderman or Cave Johnson into MM8BDM, or introducing gimmicks like teleportation and 1HKO melee attacks on a projectile-intended game, based mostly off internet pop culture, community gloating and pandering is bland, uncreative and irrelevant to the purpose of making coherent game design choices and for balancing. Saxtom Hale? Why not Mike Haggar? Ninja Spy? Why not Strider Hiryu? Slenderman? Why not Pyramid Head? All Capcom characters, some were on the NES: no need to break the game's context.

Next up is my main grind about it: Saxton Hale, the literal totality of the game mode, doesn't blend well with MM8BDM's gameplay. On the original mod, you're playing on a more advanced physics engine, and through a balanced class-based team gameplay. You can pick the kind of weapon you want (with its pros and cons), you can choose to attack/support, and the boss player has to deal with a variety of enemies. On the MM8BDM port, you're playing on an engine that is limited in lots of ways when compared to Source, and through a deathmatch free4all-conceived gameplay. All players get the same set of randomized weapons and share the same stats, you're forced to attack because the weapons were conceived for deathmatch, and the boss player just fights the same enemy numerous times. Mixing Saxton Hale with class mods just somewhat fills this gap, but it'll never fix it as it is a structural flaw of mixing two wildly different games.

The main concept of Saxton Hale is that a random player becomes a superboss (Terminator cough cough): he gains a lot of health and a very powerful attack. The rest of the players have to team up to defeat him. Many new things could be introduced with this exact concept. The current state of Saxton Hale mods just forces the TF2 mod into MM8BDM without much regard. Lego's attempt at making a Mega Man-themed superboss mode is precisely the direction Saxton Hale mods should've taken from the start. The problem is, as I mentioned above, it will not be the same as Saxton Hale without the class aspect of it, so it has to introduce a teamwork element to encourage players to protect or help their combat buddies; otherwise, it'll practically be "you vs that one guy" instead of "us vs that one guy".

So yeah, I guess that's it.

[CutmanMike]

I was thinking of making a Gutsman Z mode before this mod showed up and kinda did the same thing. One player would become Gutsman Z and throw people around and the other players would have to team up to take him down. Obviously no one would even consider playing it now as saxton has lots of different things and has become the standard for the terminator styled gameplay.

I said it before in another thread but we can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting. People like game modes where you get put in the spotlight a lot, like saxton. That may be a good place to start.

[Beed28]

*clap* *clap* *clap*

Thank you so much, MusashiAA.

I'm one of the few people who stays away from the foul presence known as "Saxton Hale" as much as possible.

...

Wait a minute, Gutsman Z? Where have I heard that before?

I decided to try the chaos generator 2 B in 1 player mode, I now have even more reason to hate roll, in DW1 I gotten jelly world, double damage and gutsman G, lets just say NOONE was getting away from him, the bouncing gave him jumping abilities, even if you goten to higher ground, he will find you, then I was in the hard knuckle corner, he started comeing at me then he suddenly warpes right before hiting me, only to have him attack me from the side...holy crap he has dragon ball Z powers! Gutsman Z anyone?

There we go.

[Jdude330]

I was thinking of making a Gutsman Z mode before this mod showed up and kinda did the same thing. One player would become Gutsman Z and throw people around and the other players would have to team up to take him down. Obviously no one would even consider playing it now as saxton has lots of different things and has become the standard for the terminator styled gameplay.

I said it before in another thread but we can't stop people playing what they find fun, it's not right. The only way to get people to play something else is to make something new/better and exciting. People like game modes where you get put in the spotlight a lot, like saxton. That may be a good place to start.

i would play it, or try it at least.

THANKS! Someone else who hates sh!

first the servers:
SAXTON HALE! [][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][][ ][][][][][]
RP(after an hour on) [][][][][]
OC [][][][][][][][][][][]
RCG[]

then the actual game:
usually its just one last person running around for an hour while everyone else is dead. they don't care about attacks, they just run around.

the class paring:
the two classes iv'e played it with just make it terrible.
NORMAL: Flyers and gravityman cant be touched
MMX: OK i could just say one word about this: HADOUKEN!!!, but ill go into more detail. all you have to do is get a mmx army to fire hadoukens, they kill the boss in one hit, and you win.

I would play it if:
gutsman z (if no OHKOs)
the actual bosses from story (with a slight HP buff)
Actually felt like a boss battle instead of a running spree
NO OHKO!!!
shortened time(5 max min)
they fix the bug with the recolors where they look like the normal one.

[CutmanMike]

Wait a minute, Gutsman Z? Where have I heard that before?

oh I meant G

[Ceridran]

I believe I once said something about sticking to memorable (and worthy) characters within the NES/SNES/N64/Genesis/whatever, or from Nintendo, Sega, Capcom.. uh, yeah, I don't know. (Not everything counts for sure, anyway.)

Bosses like Scrooge McDuck, M. Bison, Ghost of Starman, I know GoS is getting a rework soon enough. Or so I hope. Gilgamesh, he still needs a good rework otherwise probably not, Ra Thor, super adventure rockman so unknown and an exception that is Quote and Curly, are good bosses that match up with that.

Bosses like Slenderman, Morshu, and EVERY SINGLE VALVE RELATED HALE, are out of place.

Ra Thor is a really hard one to do something with. He never really made an appearance in any games-- What is he from, anyway?

Lego's "Saxton Hale" was cool and all, but you had 3 bosses that were essentially the same, and one of those three bosses is actually 5x better than the other ones.

Oh, and Saxton Hale is the dumbest name ever. Don't even THINK about Freak8BDM.

[Beed28]

Ra Thor is a really hard one to do something with. He never really made an appearance in any games-- What is he from, anyway?

Ra Thor is from Super Adventure Rockman, a game that was never released outside of Japan and was even disowned by Keiji Inafune himself.

[Hallan Parva]

Saxtom Hale? Why not Mike Haggar? Ninja Spy? Why not Strider Hiryu?

omfg I'd play this so hard



but yeah, Musashi you've actually done a great job of summarizing the main flaws of porting VSH over to 8BDM

so way to go guy

[Koal]

Well one of the problems is some of the servers I'm looking at you deathwind servers! are running on an older version of Zandronum, which limits some of the options some people have. That an people aren't making an attempt to host other stuff, so we are pretty much stuck with the same stagnant game mode.

[Magnet Dood]

Why don't we make a mod replacing the bosses with Mega Man minibosses instead? I think it'd be pretty awesome shooting people with TriCastle or something.

[Ceridran]

A majority of minibosses are too big to fit in many stages, and even segments of large stages.

Even if you can fit a HUGE skin onto this sort of thing, the hitbox is inconcistent with everything that ever existed.

[Laggy Blazko]

Someone (Lego, Megaman or whoever) should update GvH NES. It would kill Saxton Hale much like the original GvH killed SkullTag.

[FTX6004]

Yeah it must be the only thing that can make people stop playing saxton hale, or they will add GVH TO SAXTON HALE.

[Magnet Dood]

The only thing that'll kill Saxton Hale is active participation.

Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.

[Knux]

Try getting other people to join other servers with you and play other mods more often instead of sitting and complaining about it. You're not going to solve the problem by pointing and shouting "This mod is too popular! No one plays anything else!" without actually playing something else yourself.

Nothing like a dose of order and progress~

The problem is they don't listen. GG