Ghouls vs Humans NES

[Russel]

While in the server [and a couple of other places] I liked the concepts used for Cacodemon. The problems with him were the fact that he was a ranged slow elephant that couldn't really do much aside from exist and that he wasn't ever an actual ghoul. Personally I would love to reuse an updated his kit on some other ghoul or something, but I lack the creative whimsy to pull something like that off easily.

Anyway, I have a changeset for the next test build and I need feedback on it before I release it.

(click to show/hide)

Ghostbuster:

Added sounds to the trap button, bone cannon, balls buster, and ammo recharging.
Added a slight screen flicker to indicate ammo regeneration.
Fixed a bug where he was given twice as much ammo as he was supposed to. [Max ammo: 200 ? 100]
Balls Buster now has proper ammo bars.
Bone Cannon now has proper a vertical ammo bar.
Balls buster's large and small eyeball shots reduced heavily. [Big damage: 50 ? 30; Small damage: 10 ? 5]

Marine:

Grenade explosions radii are no longer randomized. [Splash radius: random(150, 170) ? 160]

Eyesore:

Eyesore's attack animations no longer get interrupted by being damaged.
Eyesore was given a proper sound class. [Pain sound: nonexistant ? BOSSPAIN]
Eyesore's pound changed. Aiming down makes you dash in the direction you're aiming.
Slow on Eyesore's mainfire removed. [50% slow ? 0% slow]

Jitterskull:

Bite range nerfed. [78mu ? 68mu]
Bite now has a cooldown if it kills somebody.

Misc:

Choke, Frostbite and Ghostbuster now use player colors. [but Arthur is special and doesn't like using player colors.]
Cyborg has a screen flicker and recharge sound just like Ghostbuster.

[CutmanMike]

(As for the argument of it being ranged, Choke has a strong raged attack, but a VERY low rof, frostbite has one that rips and fills hallways, but has a shortish range and runs on ammo, and the creeper has one that stuns but again, runs on ammo)

Choke and Frostbite's projectiles were designed around dealing with camping humans, as humans tend to be more defensive in nature due to the ghouls having high damage close range abilities. Adding a class that just runs/flies around spamming projectiles just doesn't feel right on the ghoul team who are all about being aggressive and in your face. Many unofficial GVH mods add ghouls designed for constant ranged damage and it just doesn't fit with humans already busy trying to run away and fire at ghouls trying to melee them down.

[Max]

Suggestions I made in the server that got eaten by messages and never read

-Remove the translation on Ghostbuster's traps so you can see which weapon he has even if he's using the traps (unsure if this point is still relevant since you said he's moving to player colours)
-Give an indication of how powerful / how long marine has been holding his grenade back, I know his speed slows but it'd be nice to see how long you could hold before it exploded and use it to judge distance
-Humans that walk over their Engineer buddy's sawtraps will remove them which is hella annoying
-Marine's, Engineer's and Hunter's weapons are just using numbered weapon slots instead of actually using the themed weapon slots (eg. Marine's pistols are 2, riotgun is 3 and machinegun is 4 whereas it should be pistols are 2 (long range) machinegun is 3 (rapid fire) and riotgun is 4 (close range)) not sure how many other people use the weaponslots but I DO

[Russel]

-Remove the translation on Ghostbuster's traps so you can see which weapon he has even if he's using the traps (unsure if this point is still relevant since you said he's moving to player colours)

I mentioned in the changelog under misc. changes two posts ago that he's getting player colors in the next patch.

-Give an indication of how powerful / how long marine has been holding his grenade back, I know his speed slows but it'd be nice to see how long you could hold before it exploded and use it to judge distance

You mean like a bar? I could do that easily.

-Humans that walk over their Engineer buddy's sawtraps will remove them which is hella annoying

...Hmm...
Alright I'll see about fixing this. It should be pretty easy to work around.

-Marine's, Engineer's and Hunter's weapons are just using numbered weapon slots instead of actually using the themed weapon slots (eg. Marine's pistols are 2, riotgun is 3 and machinegun is 4 whereas it should be pistols are 2 (long range) machinegun is 3 (rapid fire) and riotgun is 4 (close range)) not sure how many other people use the weaponslots but I DO

Alrighty. Will do.

Yo thanks for relisting these here, it helps immensely. If you have any other suggestions I may have missed it would be great if you could post them here.
This goes for all suggestions anyone has for this mod.

[CutmanMike]

-Give an indication of how powerful / how long marine has been holding his grenade back, I know his speed slows but it'd be nice to see how long you could hold before it exploded and use it to judge distance

You mean like a bar? I could do that easily.

In vanilla the marine grunted when he was at max throwing distance. Btw you can tell when he's at maximum because he moves slower, though not a great indicator alone.

[Laggy Blazko]

not sure how many other people use the weaponslots but I DO

I do too, but the current weapon slots are the same as the Doom weapons so changing them would feel a little awkward for older GvH and Doom players.

[Ivory]

I agree with that point. The marine class is the doom marine, it would feel wrong to swap the shotgun and machiengun around when they are analogous to the normal shotty and chaingun.

[Max]

It's not doom any more though, I had no idea that was the 'reference' since I never played it and it'd just make more sense to adapt to 8BDM IMO, like the whole point of GVH8BDM

[CutmanMike]

Actually in vanilla GVH the marine's weapons are slotted 1, 2, 3. I think we can blame the fists existing for shifting them to 2, 3, 4. I think they should all follow this format really since you only have 3 weapons. Vanilla GVH didn't try to follow Doom's weapon slots for the weapons (i.e having the Hunter's flame arrow on 5 because it's like a rocket) for the sake of it.

[Max]

I don't think it's really 'for the sake of it' though, is it? It's adapting to an established system and reducing confusion by being consistent... I don't like reaching for a close range weapon and getting Lightning Arrows, or trying to select the Steam Cannon and getting nothing because it's put on rapid-fire.

[Bikdark]

Why is this a discussion topic? This is mm8bdm, not Doom, and should not be treated as such.

You have a system that works, use it. Switching it around only causes MORE confusion because it's two different slot methods within the same game.

[Laggy Blazko]

Why is this a discussion topic?

If it wasn't you couldn't even say what you think. =P

[Gummywormz]

Eyesore:

Slow on Eyesore's mainfire removed. [50% slow ? 0% slow]

This is a good start. I still say he needs to lose the "ammo regen only when standing still". Consistency is a silly reason to keep it as is.

Mega Man also needs to be looked into. He is so versatile compared to the other humans. It's almost not worth playing any other class. He has almost every weapon (except the trapping ones), as well as additional goodies like homing, aimable weapons, and invulnerability. The only remote downfall of the class is the lack of ammo regen.

EDIT: Also Frostbite's frost breath cant freeze Junk Man lava.

[Korby]

It's not so much for consistency, but moreso because standing still to regen ammo leaves the ghoul/human open for attack, so you need to pick a good time to stop and recharge.

Personally, I think Lego should remove Homing weapons and probably Skull BARRier from the rotation.

[Russel]

I'm not gonna further buff Eyesore in this patch because the additional versatility from the altfire I gave it should be tested before I buff him further. I'll think about making his ammo regenerate natually, but seeing as the charges are basically stamina, it kind of makes sense for him to have to stand still to regenerate...he also doesn't have to wait nearly as patiently as Creeper or the ammo regenerating humans to get their ammo back.

It's not so much for consistency, but moreso because standing still to regen ammo leaves the ghoul/human open for attack, so you need to pick a good time to stop and recharge.

Also this.

As for the Megaman complaint...I would argue that his versatility is what sets him apart from the other humans, but some of his weapons do break balance [like Skull Barrier and any homing weapon.] I was planning on introducing a mechanic Smash came up with that would basically give Megaman more power as he lost allies, and I already realized his high versatility would cause potential issues coinciding with that. The easiest and most logical solution at this point would be to remove the weapons that break the mode. I would rather not take the approach Classes used and reduce how much damage he does if I can avoid it.

With that said, I made some more minor changes:

(click to show/hide)

Sjas:

Damage reverted back. [80 ? 100]
Base speed reduced slightly. [0.69 ? 0.67 forward/back; 0.6 ? 0.58 strafe]

Misc:

All humans now have better color changes. [Thanks Korby]
Gibs were made 8 bit, with a hearty mix of guts and bones. [This change actually happened yesterday, I just forgot to note it.]

Bear in mind that this changelog is tentative and iterative.