Ghouls vs Humans NES

[Tails]

Well I mean you can argue that even if it's popular, it doesn't mean it's good. While it's popular, it does have it's flaws and while I never played the original, I think with it having the original intent and balance in mind it's much better. Not to diss on Mega's work, because it isn't like there's no quality in it.
It's kind of like saying say Big Rigs: Over the Roads Racing is being sold to almost every American household or something (looked it up, and it's apparently high selling..? what). Is it successful? No. Poor quality, glitches, etc. make it bad. So even if this mod is "popular", you can't necessary call it good.

[? Manibogi ?]

My main problem with Sjas (aside from his speed) is that he seems to get partial invisibility when standing still. Considering who he is, that seems unfair.

Personally, I think the only classes you should change are Sjas (nerf), and Caco (buff), after doing that (and fixing saws), I think this will be balanced well enough to be fair for both sides, yet enjoyable and fun at the same time.

[LlamaHombre]

Manibogi basically said what I believe of this mod. Aside from scaring my trousers off my body, I don't really have a problem with Creeper or Yurei.

Cacodemon has a lot of potential that he's too slow and too weak to utilize, and Sjas is the exact opposite of that. Not much potential, but fast and strong enough to exploit his lack of potential.

I also don't understand the hate for the Marine other than that laggier players might not have much use for him anymore

[Nostalgia]

This mod would be perfect if Cacodemon wasn't useless. I swear that he's some sort of sick joke to make people not pick a random class when on the Ghoul team. The one and only use I can think for him is being a tank and distractor to allow the other ghouls to rush the humans whilst they are focused on killing the Cacodemon, but then again the humans should just leave the Cacodemons for last since they can barely deal out damage anyway.

[Tails]

Though, Caco's main is at least strong, should someone try to act brave and go face to face with it.

[Hallan Parva]

hey guys

let's go make GvH NES Nordic Saga!!!!1!!!111!!1!1one!!



In all seriousness though, even with the imbalance if you get a game with experienced players, matches can end pretty close. I haven't really seen clear victories in favor of Humans or Ghouls lately like I saw at release, and with matches ending at 5-3 or 4-5 it seems a lot of players have figured out how to counter the specific classes.

Anyway, a game's goal is to make you have FUN. If you're not having fun then why bother? Masochists.

[? Manibogi ?]

Though, Caco's main is at least strong, should someone try to act brave and go face to face with it.

It would take ages to get to anyone's face with Cacodemon, that's the problem.

[LlamaHombre]

Caco's main is strong, yes, but he's slower than every other class in the game AND he takes hitstun so you have to be some sort of stealthy elephant in the room to get up close and personal with anyone.

His hitstun should be removed and his altfire should be a little stronger in my opinion.

[King Dumb]

Balance/gameplay-wise, the following are the things that must be changed for the next release:

-Sjas must receive a nerf in speed.
-Ghostbuster must receive some significant degree of damage nerf.
-Choke must lose its invincibility frames.

These are the three things that break this mode the most. Everything else is really negligible compared to these three items. Fix these three things and you will have a much, much more balanced game.

Another thing you have to realize is that GvH, whether this purposeful or not, can only consistently have balanced games when there are more humans than ghouls... how much more is a much harder thing to discern.

[Mr. X]

Excuse me for not spoilering this but... How can one say this is a failure?! I haven't seen a non-casual server this full in a VERY long while!

People play CSCM go see Transformers but that doesn't make it good.  My problems with this mod are few but major.

1) The MM8BDM maps aren't made for this.  I mean, when I was playing earlier, we had Air Man's stage.  Pits everywhere and the ghouls have infinite flight.  DURR, I WONDER WHO WILL WIN?

2) The entire setup is just ripe for stalling.  Completely invisible characters, super speed characters, wave bikes when some classes can't get them, etc.  It just makes it horrendously boring for everybody but the last people remaining.

3) Sjas is broken as fuck.  Tsuki said "Oh, just aim ahead of him", but in order to hit it doing that, I'd have to aim 5,000 feet ahead of it and hope it doesn't change directions.  The melee thing isn't enough of a downside when sjas can go from long range to in your face in .5 seconds.

4) Ghostbuster is also pretty damn broken.  I mean really, from what I saw it was basically human team wins when they spam Ghost traps everywhere and Ghouls win when they spam Sjas.

Balance is key in a class mod:  the reason TF2 is so popular is because the classes all have significant strengths and weaknesses that are (almost) perfect for team based combat.  Everyone has a role.  Here, the roles are so ill-defined that you're better off just picking the fastest/cheapest character and rolling with it.  I mean, I can handle some lack of balance:  I'll admit I find classes deathmatch pretty fun.  However, when something is this horribly off, it's just offputting and the fact that it's designed around a mode that amplifies its problems is just a death sentence.

[Shade Guy]

I originally disagreed with things like Musashi's suggestion of adding anti-stalling measures, but he is right. GvH is very different to MM8BDM, and measures should be taken for this mod for it to 'fit in' to the different gameplay style. Maps shouldn't be altered to accommodate for this mod, but the other way around.

First off, the Yurei class. Complete invisibility is a no-no. Remember when Shadow Man of YD's Classes used to have complete invisibility when standing still? It slowed down games of TLMS to a halt...Which was a big problem, seeing as like GvH, YD Classes and TLMS go hand in hand. I'm content with the whole 'fading in and out' while moving, but I would suggest making it so Yurei doesn't go completely invisible, but instead near-invisibility.

In regards to flying ghoul classes, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe MM8BDM maps have layouts much more focused on height variation than GvH maps, so infinite flight is much more of an advantage and more of a problem in this type of gameplay. So, you know, something should be done about that.

Also, in terms of balance between the ghouls and the humans, I always thought the ghouls were supposed to have some advantage over the humans. It might be just me, but I like that sense of outclassed-ness...To a certain extent, of course. I'm okay with when a single ghoul manages to take down three or four humans. Of course, when a ghoul takes down a whole team, that might be a little too much.

For now, since the classes aren't tailored to the MM8BDM maps, I would recommend for Messatsu and any one else hosting this to look carefully at the server's map rotation, and remove any maps that just don't work for this type of gameplay. That is, I've found that small and/or maps with lots of pits don't work very well. Examples of this would be Air Man, stuff like Gold Man and Her Man from CSCMR, etc. Dark Man, Knight Man, Shade Man and those sort of maps usually work well for TLMS, so I would imagine they're examples of maps to keep in.

[MusashiAA]

Maps shouldn't be altered to accommodate for this mod, but the other way around.

Mark these words, as they are a golden rule for any mod. EDIT: Actually, let me mark them myself in gold.

I'm content with the whole 'fading in and out' while moving, but I would suggest making it so Yurei doesn't go completely invisible, but instead near-invisibility.

That sorta nerfs her hard. She's a surprise 1HKO glass back attacker with a very good way of warning humans to always check their backs. In my opinion, Yurei should keep the current invis, but always be near-invisible when not moving, as this is how the altfire ammo recharges.

In regards to flying ghoul classes, correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe MM8BDM maps have layouts much more focused on height variation than GvH maps, so infinite flight is much more of an advantage and more of a problem in this type of gameplay. So, you know, something should be done about that.

You could either use the methods I suggested earlier OR apply YD Astro's flight mechanic to every ghoul...which is very hard for me to explain, seriously :S

Also, in terms of balance between the ghouls and the humans, I always thought the ghouls were supposed to have some advantage over the humans.

I like this too, don't get me wrong: that is pretty much the core dynamic of this gameplay. Except that Ghouls don't need to output ~90 damage tops on a single hit to be menacing. If anything, "superbly strong" attacks oscillates between 80 damage tops and 50 damage minimun: still 2HKOs, but not superflously strong. This also does not excuse you for giving Ghouls, the "outclassing team", infinite flight in a game with more varied map layouts that can benefit them in many negative ways for the opposing team. It should also not serve as an excuse to rid of certain limitations for Humans that would make them more interesting and still as strong.

[xColdxFusionx]

She's a surprise 1HKO glass back attacker

Yurei has 150 HP. Your argument is invalid.

[MusashiAA]

She's a surprise 1HKO glass back attacker

Yurei has 150 HP. Your argument is invalid.

Let me just organize my thoughts about Yurei for a second.

She has a 1HKO attack, 150 HP and unreliable invisibility frames. Her jumpscare motivates players to directly focus all fire towards the invisible, potentially-behind-you 1HKO Ghoul. The altfire is a pretty fearful and powerful thing as well. But as she stands, she relies heavily on not being discovered: once her cover is blown (which is easy because of her skin the skin), she becomes a high priority target in the back of all humans' heads (this is why I call the jumpscare an ingenious game design)

To put it in perspective: Creeper has also a jumpscare effect, and he's always hard to see, hard to hit unless you have explosives or a floorhugger (which most Humans do, except they're either unreliable on the spot or limited), and hard to shake off because of the always-near-invisibility factor. He has a stunning altfire, which just further makes him better at what he does...but he represents less of a general danger than Yurei JUST BECAUSE OF YUREI'S ALTFIRE.

Creeper's HP value (70) is OK for what he embodies. Yurei is a lot more threatening, despite being too similar to Creeper, and the high HP value (150) just makes her a consistently powerful threat that just won't go away easily.

Which is why I want to suggest a nerf to Yurei's HP to 100. Keeps her at the regular Ghoul HP value while not messing with the attacks that are not OK when blended with unnecessarily high HP.

[Mr. X]

I think he kept popping that out to show she wasn't a glass cannon:  just a cannon.  Which you just showed you agree with.