Justified Classes v4b Beta 14

[Bikdark]

Pretty boring mod. Most of the classes just have megabuster clones with some super jump tacked on.

[Superjustinbros]

All of the MMV colouring and such was based off of the wiki we aren't going to change it to blue just because Rockman 4 MI did.

Last time I checked his armor was blue. You could use a standard blue for the armor, then a light green for the lighter tone of the armor and the hair.

[Fyone]

In this version Terra's armor is blue and the secondary colour is white I believe, and the hair is green always like plantman's flower.

[Gummywormz]

Switching weapons as Sun Star makes it so you can no longer charge your main fire and gives you infinite altfire ammo.

[xColdxFusionx]

So I want to weigh in

Warning: Very limited experience with this mod over the last couple days. Anyone may feel free to correct me if I make a wrong statement.

(click to show/hide)

+ It's cool to see some different interpretations of the classes! For the most part, these classes are actually fairly entertaining to use!
+ These graphics are actually really good.
+ Spinning Tops is the definition of a sexy reimagining of the boring top shotgun. It's beautiful.
+ Also Air Wall Mini is additional sexy.
+ You did The Thing with Shademan's flight. I like The Thing. We need more of The Thing.
* A lot of classes get stuck with slightly modified versions of each other's altfires. Dust Man and Wind Man, Blizzard Man and Punk, Enker and Saturn... Can we get more differentiation?
* A lot of the classes also suffer from the issue of "this is neat, but not actually useful." Some more specific examples are below
* Quick Man is neat, though the straight dash makes him play a bit too much like a wonky Top Man. Are you SURE you can't allow him to turn while dashing?
* Magnet Man's alt doesn't last long enough to be relevant. I have not been able to use it to any effect at all.
* Pharaoh Man's alt isn't particularly useful. Any chance he can get it changed out for something that's actually handy?
* Skull Man's "Zhonya's Hourglass", while a nifty gimmick, doesn't exactly do as much as you'd think it would. Not entirely sure what you could do with it though.
* I applaud you for having the balls to make Gyro Man's ammo bar actually relevant. I have issues, however, telling if he's actually usable or not due to how hard it is to hit with the gyros due to their slow travel speed and long pause before seeking.
* Punk gets the award for world's most abusable contact damage. Find the right spot to set up and watch as people walk into you like lemmings.
- Not exactly a direct issue with the mod, but this is some of the worst PR I've seen on Cutstuff in a while. "It's not canon" isn't a good reason to deny things that would improve the mod. And we already have enough classes mods holy shit
- Copy Classes got a neat gimmick, but it really neuters their effectiveness
- Bass especially gets the short end of the stick, being forced to sit still while bosses can pound his face in.
- Elec Man got nerfed since the last time I saw him. Jeez. Sniper Bolt should charge a little faster to make it not completely unusable.
- Oil Slider's hitbox either doesn't exist or is incredibly inconsistent.
- Flash Man still has the terrible KY charge. It doesn't even make sense with his canon attack pattern.
- Doc Robot is still one of the most awkward class in the game to use. Toggling your weapons around is obnoxious to do in a heated battle.
- Dive Man was nerfed into the ground. Holy nuts. His dash is literally unusable, which renders him pretty much unplayable due to the Dive Missile being pretty meh.
- Gravity Hold doesn't really do enough to justify how baffling it is to use.
- Charge Man literally can't hit anything due to his changes. Coal Rain needs some sort of alteration to make it usable.
- Plant Man gets the award for most awkward class by far. How does he even work?
- Knight Man is... boring, to say the least. He needs something.
- No Air Ballade. ...This is more of a personal issue than an actually relevant one.

[MusashiAA]

Alright, let's go with this.

I'm not going to talk about one by one balance, that's a whole different can of worms that I don't even want to touch with a 10 meter stick. What I want to talk about is the creative approach of this mod as a whole.

I admire the effort put into many of the classes. There's lots of details and features that are just very neat and offer things no one has actually tried before. There's the fact of coming up with ways to transfer abilities and attacks from 2D games into a 3D enviroment without changing them much AND making them useful for battle. Many HUDs actually look awesome and look like they belong to that character. The effort put into a seamless transfer of 2D abilities into a 3D enviroment is noticeable, and admirable...

...but sometimes VERY lacking and unintuitive in practice, to say the least. Many of them don't serve an actual purpose in a fight, save for being there and doing what they do. Looking pretty and awesome doing flips and teleports and wall clings and all sorts of things doen't matter if they don't serve to the purpose of fighting and winning. Many limitations to some attacks, regardless of being justified because of the source, are just incredibly unnecessary detriments in a battle. In some cases, there isn't even an attempt at differentiating copy weapons from class weapons, which means nothing really new is offered to the player while using those classes.

...but I'd like to think that the name of the mod is literally a self-conscious joke, or just a sort of statement towards those who question the design of some classes: it's all justified by the source. We're not here to make things out of the blue: we have a design, it's called "the games", and the plan is to make a class strictly from the design, and make it work. Except that's dumb, because the former will handicap the latter. In the grand scheme of this plan, the flaw of practicality is jarring in most executions. In fact, I dare say that this wasn't even about practicality in the first place...except I see all the effort put into making things work, to make them look as cool and faithful to the design as they are. I can't say that this wasn't made to be played: it was, but there are so many design flaws because of what I believe to be a stubborn creative limitation, that playing it and ejoying it all is incredibly hard because many of these cool things don't help you in a fight.

Almost every balance issue will probably not come without a core flaw regarding how the class "was designed". You just can't take the source and apply it to a 3D enviroment "without changing it much", and specially if you want this to be played: this is, by the way, a creative cornerstone of MM8BDM. Some consessions must be made in order to balance this mod. The way things look, most classes are and will be UP because of fruitless design limitations and unclear class roles. "xxxman does what xxxman did in MMsomething": that's not a class role, and "the source" is not a valid argument if you want this to be playable and enjoyable.

Triple A's, 5 stars, 10 out of 10, one of the best class mods I've played so far. Just fix it.

Have the will to let it be fixed, even if it means a schism from the source. It will be justified if people can play and enjoy it all.

[Fyone]

So I want to weigh in

Warning: Very limited experience with this mod over the last couple days. Anyone may feel free to correct me if I make a wrong statement.

+ It's cool to see some different interpretations of the classes! For the most part, these classes are actually fairly entertaining to use!
+ These graphics are actually really good.
+ Spinning Tops is the definition of a sexy reimagining of the boring top shotgun. It's beautiful.
+ Also Air Wall Mini is additional sexy.
+ You did The Thing with Shademan's flight. I like The Thing. We need more of The Thing.
* A lot of classes get stuck with slightly modified versions of each other's altfires. Dust Man and Wind Man, Blizzard Man and Punk, Enker and Saturn... Can we get more differentiation?
I'm not concerned on this; if you have some suggestions by all means I guess just give good reasons.
* A lot of the classes also suffer from the issue of "this is neat, but not actually useful." Some more specific examples are below
* Quick Man is neat, though the straight dash makes him play a bit too much like a wonky Top Man. Are you SURE you can't allow him to turn while dashing?
We will see; I don't think it's necessary though because when I was playing him it seemed fine.
* Magnet Man's alt doesn't last long enough to be relevant. I have not been able to use it to any effect at all.
It is very good to say the least; iirc it's a clean 4hko with sucking capabilities and semi-large radius.
* Pharaoh Man's alt isn't particularly useful. Any chance he can get it changed out for something that's actually handy?
Make a suggestion and I will see; though it was meant for picking people off instead having to fully charge.
* Skull Man's "Zhonya's Hourglass", while a nifty gimmick, doesn't exactly do as much as you'd think it would. Not entirely sure what you could do with it though.
We have something in mind; basically instead of not being able to move he'll get half speed or something.
* I applaud you for having the balls to make Gyro Man's ammo bar actually relevant. I have issues, however, telling if he's actually usable or not due to how hard it is to hit with the gyros due to their slow travel speed and long pause before seeking.
The long pause is fixed as I have had trouble using him as well.
* Punk gets the award for world's most abusable contact damage. Find the right spot to set up and watch as people walk into you like lemmings.
Doesn't do as much as you think.
- Not exactly a direct issue with the mod, but this is some of the worst PR I've seen on Cutstuff in a while. "It's not canon" isn't a good reason to deny things that would improve the mod. And we already have enough classes mods holy shit
If we're gonna add something to the class we want to add something that would make sense with class but not to YD classes' extent.
- Copy Classes got a neat gimmick, but it really neuters their effectiveness
It was a way to nerf the copyweps slightly.
- Bass especially gets the short end of the stick, being forced to sit still while bosses can pound his face in.
He is fine if you know how to use him; Bass can jump while shooting to move and dash to get more distance if need be.
- Elec Man got nerfed since the last time I saw him. Jeez. Sniper Bolt should charge a little faster to make it not completely unusable.
iirc it's a 3hko, IMO it's fine.
- Oil Slider's hitbox either doesn't exist or is incredibly inconsistent.
It's buffed in the next version; it isn't inconsistent also it's just small.
- Flash Man still has the terrible KY charge. It doesn't even make sense with his canon attack pattern.
We don't want to make him OP; in the attack pattern he walks around the boss fight to charge his time stopper.
- Doc Robot is still one of the most awkward class in the game to use. Toggling your weapons around is obnoxious to do in a heated battle.
If you can set him up before you fight then you don't have to toggle as much though all in all I don't see this as an issue.
- Dive Man was nerfed into the ground. Holy nuts. His dash is literally unusable, which renders him pretty much unplayable due to the Dive Missile being pretty meh.
The dive charge is being buffed in ammo next version.
- Gravity Hold doesn't really do enough to justify how baffling it is to use.
Do you mean the copywep or Gravityman?
- Charge Man literally can't hit anything due to his changes. Coal Rain needs some sort of alteration to make it usable.
Perhaps give a suggestion; seems very good as it is.
- Plant Man gets the award for most awkward class by far. How does he even work?
Altfire is a wall jump and the rest should be self explanatory.
- Knight Man is... boring, to say the least. He needs something.
If you want a change on Knight Man give a suggestion.
- No Air Ballade. ...This is more of a personal issue than an actually relevant one.
Sure.

[Fyone]

Alright, let's go with this.

I'm not going to talk about one by one balance, that's a whole different can of worms that I don't even want to touch with a 10 meter stick. What I want to talk about is the creative approach of this mod as a whole.

I admire the effort put into many of the classes. There's lots of details and features that are just very neat and offer things no one has actually tried before. There's the fact of coming up with ways to transfer abilities and attacks from 2D games into a 3D enviroment without changing them much AND making them useful for battle. Many HUDs actually look awesome and look like they belong to that character. The effort put into a seamless transfer of 2D abilities into a 3D enviroment is noticeable, and admirable...

...but sometimes VERY lacking and unintuitive in practice, to say the least. Many of them don't serve an actual purpose in a fight, save for being there and doing what they do. Looking pretty and awesome doing flips and teleports and wall clings and all sorts of things doen't matter if they don't serve to the purpose of fighting and winning. Many limitations to some attacks, regardless of being justified because of the source, are just incredibly unnecessary detriments in a battle. In some cases, there isn't even an attempt at differentiating copy weapons from class weapons, which means nothing really new is offered to the player while using those classes.

...but I'd like to think that the name of the mod is literally a self-conscious joke, or just a sort of statement towards those who question the design of some classes: it's all justified by the source. We're not here to make things out of the blue: we have a design, it's called "the games", and the plan is to make a class strictly from the design, and make it work. Except that's dumb, because the former will handicap the latter. In the grand scheme of this plan, the flaw of practicality is jarring in most executions. In fact, I dare say that this wasn't even about practicality in the first place...except I see all the effort put into making things work, to make them look as cool and faithful to the design as they are. I can't say that this wasn't made to be played: it was, but there are so many design flaws because of what I believe to be a stubborn creative limitation, that playing it and ejoying it all is incredibly hard because many of these cool things don't help you in a fight.

Almost every balance issue will probably not come without a core flaw regarding how the class "was designed". You just can't take the source and apply it to a 3D enviroment "without changing it much", and specially if you want this to be played: this is, by the way, a creative cornerstone of MM8BDM. Some consessions must be made in order to balance this mod. The way things look, most classes are and will be UP because of fruitless design limitations and unclear class roles. "xxxman does what xxxman did in MMsomething": that's not a class role, and "the source" is not a valid argument if you want this to be playable and enjoyable.

Triple A's, 5 stars, 10 out of 10, one of the best class mods I've played so far. Just fix it.

Have the will to let it be fixed, even if it means a schism from the source. It will be justified if people can play and enjoy it all.

If you can, make some examples of the classes that have these issues.

We aren't going for class roles like YD classes; we are trying to allow all the robot masters to have a fair fight in most every situation.

[Bikdark]

We aren't going for class roles like YD classes; we are trying to allow all the robot masters to have a fair fight in most every situation.

Then they aren't classes, they're slight variations of megaman.

[Gumballtoid]

I'm having trouble gauging how long Jupiter's flight lasts. It really ought to have a stamina bar.

A lot of the Mega Man V aesthetics are really poorly done. Primarily, the weapon colors. Re-imagine them with the NES palette, don't try to perfectly mimic their artwork.

Break Dash's charging animation, while accurate to the Gameboy, clashes pretty badly with the rest of the charging weapons. It should really look more like anything that isn't Atomic Fire.

[Emmanuelf06]

The programmers try to make it canon as they can, We didnt say it's perfectly Canon, but Fyone and others try to make it the most possible with a fun gameplay (Stoneman by exemple).
We didnt use megaman weapons for the robotmasters too, See Turboman if you charge the attack, it's like MM7 turboman....

It's not perfectly canon, but it's the most canon We tried to have, for a lot at least....Perfection in a megaman classe game is not really possible because there is too much robotmasters and differents power/weapons.
And as Fyone said, they try to do the best to make is "compatible" with all the mode (DM and TLMS specially), il pretty sure it can work in DUEL because it's pretty balanced too (maybe with buckshot/brutalduel item thing).

It's hard to kill quickly because it's to stop spam of strong attacks and large range when there is a lot of people, the damage are pretty good, even if there is a lot of people or not a lot.

Ballade can't Specialy Escape Mine jump because a robotmaster who is too fast or can escape for a long time , is boring. We have Gyroman, but there is a fast gauge, we have quickman but he has a low armor. Others things are made to make the mode playable for each modes.
Knightman can charge the knightcrush to make it stopped after a moment, it can do good traps.

No more easy frags anyway! It's more interesting to use the most of your possibilities to have a frag! Not only spamming when there is a lot of people.

[Shmeckie]

Apologies if this post seems a bit wonky, I'm multitasking here...

I'm stoked to see a successor to KY Classes, and the addition of the Stardroids was a welcome surprise! I'll have to test this out myself to get a feel for the classes and any changes I can suggest if need be. While I gotta say the initial discussion for this mod was rocky as hell, I hope we can get past all that, some of the developers can be a little more open (not to say you gotta go full YD Classes and start making stuff up, but don't let a perfectly good character end up underpowered, overpowered, or stuck with useless abilities out of an over-adherence to canon. You said you wanted classes to stand on their own, right?).

I'll host a Deathmatch server for this mod so folks can test and explore these classes in a multiplayer environment.

We aren't going for class roles like YD classes; we are trying to allow all the robot masters to have a fair fight in most every situation.

Then they aren't classes, they're slight variations of megaman.

No, I think he's coming at this from a fighting game mentality; that each character should have their own unique abilities, but still be able to stand on their own, as opposed to some of them needing a team/role to play. A character can specialize in one thing or another and still be able to hold their own.

I fully support this way of thinking. It lets players choose their favorite Robot Master in any game mode and be able to do fine, as opposed to some classes being so support-reliant, or support-centric, that on their own they're near-useless.

EDIT:
Played a bit of it, mainly just ran around by myself seeing what each class does. Just at a glance I'm incredibly impressed at the level of detail here. Virtually everything has the right animations and sprites. The classes really do feel like I'm playing as the actual characters themselves, and I like the touches on a lot of the animations (Pharaoh Man's mainfire's HUD having what feels like a whole animation sequence makes the attack just satisfying to throw out). Some moves feel like they'd be impractical in a fight, but I'll have to actually use them against people before I can confirm that. Spark man's HUD definitely takes up too much space, and Tomahawk Man's HUD could be scooted over a bit so it's not in so much of the way.

Also Sunstar appears to be missing.

Quick question; are the extra touches from KY Classes still present? Bot Rush? Terminator mode where picking up the Dark Energy turns you into Wily?

[Shmeckie]

Sorry for the doublepost, but I tried out a handful of classes against a bunch of Mega Man bots to see how they fared in basic combat. These are just initial impressions that may change after fighting people:

Punk - I like the attempts to balance him, and the bounce cannonball adds some extra strategy to using it since you can move during the bounces. I love that, adds variety! One big issue, though, is his ammo consumption on his mainfire. It takes most of his ammo just to kill one opponent. He's actually kind of underpowered because of this. All he needs is an ammo buff (ammo consumption should be cut in half), and he should be perfect.

Pharaoh Man - I like the versatility here! I found myself enterring a fray with a Pharaoh Wave, and finishing people off with Pharaoh Shots. Pretty sure that's the idea, so he seems to be a success. Nice damage balance, too. I never felt like I was wielding a nuke. Everything synergized just right. Kudos!

Spark Man - had to see if he was improvement over vanilla classes' Spark Man, and I gotta say he definitely is! Spark Shock doesn't stun you for too long, and the giant spark is great for crowd control. Plus, this setup makes him a force to be reckoned with on his own map! Seems excellent so far!

Magnet Man - I'd have to fight people with him to make any kind of final verdict, but so far I'm in love. Pulling people toward you is so satisfying, and finishing them off with Magnet Missiles is great! My one qualm is you can't hit a group of people with Magnet Pull, but you can pull them all in. Less satisfying than it could be, and it can put you in danger. How much damage does that pull do, anyway? Sometimes it felt really strong, other times pretty weak.

Drill Man - Solid overall. Drill Bombs didn't feel as awkward as they do in vanilla classes, which makes him easier to pick up and play.

Uranus - Oh my dear sweet merciful god he is fun to play as! Who do I have to plant a big sloppy kiss on to thank them for this guy? Oh god...! I could play as this guy for hours!

Jupiter - My favorite Stardroid is sadly underpowered here. His mainfire does piss-poor damage, and his alt feels like it should be powerful, but I'll be damned if I could get kills with the thing. Barely even managed to soften anyone up. Even when I fired it into a crowd it did little. Using him was the only match where I lost to the Mega-Bots.

Saturn - Also a blast to play, but his release attack feels like it barely does anything. What's the properties of this move? I only killed one bot by accident with it, and I don't think I ever even hit with it again. The versatility of his mainfire, though, is fun as hell.

Neptune - I don't know where I stand on this guy. He seemed strong enough, but just barely. Gonna have to use him against human opponents for a final verdict. His alt never seemed to hit, though.

So far, this mod looks great! Obviously it's very much a "v1a", but I'm totally excited to see where this goes in the future, and damn if this mod doesn't feel polished as hell!

[Stardust]

You... played with the bots, you say ? Wasn't there a problem with them ? Like... if they have another RM's weapon and even another RM's color scheme ?

[FTX6004]

So the Neptune skin Chimeraman did dosent have the same back as the Neptune in the other screenshots have from MMV,
so i did this.


If you guys likes this i would do Saturn without his Saturn Ring on.