Cutstuff CTF Competition 2: That's My Horse! ---FINISHED---

[Dr. Freeman]

Hiya.

When it comes to judging competitions, I think the method I preferred the most was F2M's deal where both judges and the community weighed in. People who actually analyze the maps n shit have a lot of weight, but the people who play the game actually have a say in the matter as well. It doesn't ignore either side.

I'm going to be blunt, the reason judges are MIA from this is simply because, well, the lack of people to properly judge it. I sure as hell don't think people trust me enough to shove me on the table, and some of the people who have judged previous compos are either not around anymore, or have expressed interest in making maps themselves, and you can't really be a judge then. At that point, it's almost just asking to pick three random people from the community to be the judging panel, and see what happens, which is just a really small and kinda stupid community vote at that point anyway.

This shit isn't done til July, if I can manage to find a group of trustworthy judges who aren't all from the same house by that time period, hey, we'll add the judging panel to this shit. I like those. Get CutmanMike on the horn, I don't know. Make him rise from his grave to judge an out of nowhere CTF Compo.

[King Dumb]

I was actually the one to originally suggest a pure-community vote. Bias is more concentrated on a judging panel. I don't feel that there are enough good judges that aren't already participating in the competition. If you want judges, suggest them to me or Freeman privately. Good luck finding three "unrelated, unbiased judges". Also if you want to submit a map anonymously, no one's stopping you.

The last time a mapping competition was made in which community votes determined the winner, this is exactly what happened. See, the issue here is that when you throw around the word "competition", it is heavily implied that there will be a set of judges who know what they're dealing with and know what to seek in what they're judging. Fact of the matter is that (with no offense implied) most of the community doesn't know what a good map is. Sure, they can vote for their favorites, but the mappers who spent real time and effort into their maps will be overlooked and nobody is going to learn anything from it. And since there are no actual judges around to give feedback on how to improve the maps, it all amounts to a waste of time after realizing that all the time and effort spent in making your competition map was for nothing. It doesn't even help that the prize for the competition are some meaningless pixels to flash at everybody on your forum posts, but I sure as hell wouldn't call the community's favorite map an architect just because they liked it. If we're going to use specific tastes which vary from person to person, this ain't judging for shit - it's throwing around bias and just making those who didn't win the oh-so coveted medal feel like total shit. Any sane person would assume nobody's got time for that, but hey, if someone still wants to participate in this for whatever fun they might find in doing so that's fine too. I sure as hell aren't, though.

This whole post is really poorly thought-through. Saying the community doesn't know what a good map is as nonsensical as it is disrespectful. Nobody's making maps to put in a museum; they're making maps because they enjoy it, because they want to bring their ideas to life, and because they want people to play on them. Effort and time do not equal quality (though some amount of effort can always get there); reception (I'll talk about Bikdark's issue with this word in a moment) is a far better indicator. Good maps are the ones people find fun, and people vote for the maps they find the most fun (don't worry Bik, I'll get to you in a sec). That the prize for the competition is a bunch of pixels is actually a good thing if you're worried about this stuff: why would anyone get so worked up over such a thing? The way you're talking sounds like you don't think the fun of making a map is cause enough to participate. Any map entered into this event will receive far more concentrated exposure than in a standalone release/pack; that's why I'm using this event to release my first map. Also, your concerns seem based on the idea that there is some objective way to evaluate maps, which there really, really isn't. This is content creation for a video game, not a dog show.

Given the cliquishness of this community, I find it astounding that ANYONE would think community voting would be a good idea. There exist very few groups of people that value quality over camaraderie in this community, so it's a given that they'll vote for their best friend rather than the guy they don't like who has an INFINITELY better map -- simply because they don't like him. Bring back the panel of completely unrelated, unbiased judges, please.

This shtick about cliques has run its course. See my PM response to your similar complaints from a month or so ago (and again, feel free to share that if you want the dialogue to be public). For anyone else, the tl;dr is that the clique argument is outdated, numerically and socially; it's always been the easiest thing to raise concerns about (which is fine; I'll just always try to explain to you why you're wrong). If you have a problem about how certain groups of people are interacting with the rest of the community, you can talk to them directly to fix it. If you just dislike a couple people because you think they're annoying or something, that's cool. That's not fucking cliques, that's just people.
Based on the effort you've put into this post I don't imagine you'd actually want to engage in a discussion on this matter in the nitty-gritty. For example, FTM2 is practically asking you to cite it here, but you didn't. If you'd like to do so, I'd be happy to reconcile the differences between the Judge Rankings and the Community Rankings using the same sort of thought processes that a competition judge (of the sort you want) would use. But that should not happen in this thread.

If either of you feel the urge to reply again, please read over your reply before posting it here. If it's a complaint about the event format, fine; if it's a more general or greater-scope complaint, post it elsewhere.

I'd like to reiterate a point Knux alluded to; it's a competition for the sake of it. It's just for fun.

That being said you're all in big trouble once I figured out how to use GZDB

[DarkseedZero]

Ooh this should be fun. Ill see if I can participate. CTF is a very fun game mode and I would like to see it played more. RIP Jack Corvus CTF map pack ;-;

[Mendez]

Hi, I'd like to be a judge for the next map competition.
I'll just slip my résumé underneath the door and be on my way.
I'd also like to request Bikdark as a judge too, since he seems to know his stuff about the game.
Don't worry, I've slipped his résumé underneath the door as well.
Thank you for your consideration.

[DarkseedZero]

So much pressure :O

[Emmanuelf06]

What about taking mappers who have made the most played mappack (even in the past) as judges? it could (maybe), Shadeguy, Mendez, Knux, Kapus....  

In fact, not ivory, not sure if his maps are really competitive/very good*......

[Lobsters]

I'm curious about something. If I were to make a map hypothetically speaking, could I insert skull barrier into it? The guidelines do not say anything specifically about weapons. Skull Barrier sounds like a grand ol' time, eh? What weapons, items and, potential map gimmicks would be no-nos? Or, is it really just do whatever make sure it's symmetrical and we're good for entry?

[Rozark]

Skull Barrier

Are you insane

[Max]

now now rozark play nice

here's the banlist from the LAST CTF COMPETITION
bear in mind that was like, FOUR FUCKING YEARS ago and it doesnt NECESSARILY go for this one too but it's a guideline

Shield weapons: Skull, Mirror, Leaf, Plant, Junk
Speed-boost: Charge Kick, Scorch Wheel.
Flag-Stopping: Flame Blast, Napalm Bomb, Danger Wrap
Misc: Top Spin, Gravity Hold, Wind Storm, Hyper Bomb, Time Stopper, Super Adaptor, Protoshield
Items: Eddie, Rush Jet, Beat, Exit Unit, E-Tank, M-Tank

if you were simply asking what the banlist for this one is it just seems to be nothing at all unless someone wants to clarify but
those ones are the ones we dont like

[Lobsters]

Skull Barrier

Are you insane

Am I? Maybe I should add in Time Stopper via an enter script so everybody starts with it?  

Silly crud aside.

The old banlist seems pretty reasonable. Should we have a discussion about any other additional weapons? Since, ya know the last comp was pre v3 I think. The maps are going to be judged by the community, how about we adjust and apply the ban list as a community? Might as well call it now that this will be a disaster /hopefully an actual civil discussion *ahem*


EDIT :02
Let's see if I can remember this correctly.
V3/MM8 added:

- Ice Wave
- Thunder Claw
- Flash Bomb
- Tornado Hold
- Water Balloon
- Flame Sword
- Astro Crush
- Homing Sniper
- Mega Ball

Items:
- Laser Buster upgrade
-Arrow Buster upgrade
- Duo Fist upgrade...
- I think Reggae? Might be v4 blagh

V4:
- Tengu Blade
- Copy Vision
- Spread Drill
- Ice Wall
- Wave Burner
- Remote Mine
- Lightning Bolt?
- Magic Card
 I think that's it.

Items: Treble Boost
I think that's it. Could be missing something... it's been awhiiilleeeee ok!! D :

Now speaking of a ban list

How about some I guess... modern(?) examples.

ICE WALL:

I'm not too certain if it would be more of a weapon issue or map design issue. It would be a good defensive weapon for blocking off hallways. The fact it can just be pushed around could make some areas too much of a stronghold/chokepoint and restrict the game's pacing. It's also a good way to maneuver around the map with Ice wall riding/using it as a step stool.

Conclusion: Iffy

Lightning Bolt:  
Big AOE death everywhere etc etc. blah blah blah blah blah. It's been awhile but it did something like that right?
Conclusion: Ban it

[Knux]

Just keep in mind that Danger Wrap now detonates on floors in CTF.

[Gumballtoid]

I don't think there's an express banlist but there are definitely weapons to be wary of. I'll try to put together a somewhat exhaustive list for your convenience.

These are definite no-nos. These are weapons or items that probably shouldn't be on your map under any circumstance.
Time Slow (centralizing)
Oil Slider (excess mobility)
Time Stopper (excess mobility)
Leaf Shield (too defensive)
Skull Barrier (too defensive)
Charge Kick (excess mobility)
Centaur Flash (centralizing)
Flame Blast (flag jammer)
Plant Barrier (too defensive)
Junk Shield (too defensive)
Scorch Wheel (excess mobility)
Tornado Hold (flag jammer)
Astro Crush (centralizing)
Flash Bomb (flag jammer)
Tengu Blade (excess mobility)
Lightning Bolt (centralizing)
Ice Wall (flag jammer)
Remote Mine (flag jammer)
Mirror Buster (too defensive)
Proto Buster (too defensive)
Super Adapter (excess mobility)
Treble Boost (excess mobility)
E-Tank (too defensive)
M-Tank (too defensive)
Rush Jet (excess mobility)
Beat Call (excess mobility)
Exit Unit (instant retreat)
Eddie Call (all of the above)

These are suspect. These are weapons or items you should be careful with when it comes to their placement (or lack thereof).
Hyper Bomb (flag jammer)
Crash Bomber (flag jammer)
Flash Stopper (centralizing)
Gravity Hold (centralizing)
Napalm Bomb (flag jammer)
Silver Tomahawk (centralizing)
Sakugarne (excess mobility)
Bass Buster (centralizing)
Arrow Buster (centralizing)
Laser Buster (centralizing)
Duo Fist (centralizing)
Item-2 (excess mobility)
Wire Adapter (excess mobility)
Reggae Call (inverse Exit Unit...?)

These are special cases. These weapons function differently in a CTF environment (though not necessarily due to their code).
Needle Cannon (slows opponents, increased utility)
Magnet Missile (lacks homing)
Spark Shock (stuns opponents, increased utility)
Dive Missile (lacks homing)
Danger Wrap (instant detonation)

This isn't an official list for the competition, but you'd be wise to adhere to it. If a weapon is too problematic during play, that will surely be reflected during judging.

[Lobsters]

These lists should help out thanks for the replies. I'd personally advocate for an "official" banlist. SKULL BARRIER HERE I HYPOTHETICALLY GO! Until then GL HF still not 100% sure if I'm entering.

[Stardust]

A map full of skull/plant barriers oil sliders m-tanks could have been fun.

[MusashiAA]

The concept of a straight up banlist for certain weapons is something I don't like seeing, the design of the map's weapon choices and layout should be left entirely on the map maker, be it "faulty" or not. Any weapon, especially those on the "no-no" or "suspect" list, can be made to function completely fine depending on how the map maker plans them out, and instead of forcing lists of "weapons that probably shouldn't be on your map under any circumstance" onto map makers, these lists should be put together as one big "be careful if you plan on using these weapons" list. Maybe the term "soft ban" would make sense here.

Please, no apriori ban lists, nor banning lists.