[Ghouls vs Humans] - MAP META DISCUSSION

[Mobius]

I have been contemplating for a few months about hosting again for GVH once I resolve my port forwarding issue. The idea came to me that perhaps hosting a private server with more organized matches was appealing. It occurred I could do both, but I wanted to entertain the private server much more. I already concocted certain rules and the like for the private server (borrowed heavily from Zdaemon and Skulltag's CTF private games), but I always saw debates about classes for Ghouls vs Humans. I've seen the classic Jitter arguments, been in vintage Marine arguments, and even saw the new Frostbite scare.

For those THAT KNOW Ghouls vs Humans, being more than a year old, could probably tell you that any situation is mainly map dependent. We won't lie and ignore each classes strength or weakness, but we do know maps cater specifically to certain play styles every class brings to the table. We all should be able to freely discuss and analyze the map balance by now as seasoned veterans, which is what this thread is going to shed light on.

I will proudly introduce you all to

Ghouls vs Humans
META MAP DISCUSSION

Now before we begin with our in depth discussion on which maps are the best or brightest for whatever, let's familarize ourselves with each specific map. I took the liberty of screen-shooting every Ghouls vs Humans map with additional information along side them.

Map pack for Ghouls vs Humans

GVH01

(click to show/hide)

Name: Forbidden Forest (Small)
Created by:CutmanMike

GVH02

(click to show/hide)

Name: MegaDeth Deathmatch
Created by:Mr. Rocket

GVH03

(click to show/hide)

Name: Wagi Cave
Created by: Wagi

GVH04

(click to show/hide)

Name: Claw Fist
Created by: Mechadon

GVH05

(click to show/hide)

Name: Winter Hunting
Created by: Zippy

GVH06

(click to show/hide)

Name: Arcade Souls
Created by: Sun Wukong and Captain Bighead

GVH07

(click to show/hide)

Name: Dark Station
Created by: Mik57

GVH08

(click to show/hide)

Name: The Hunting Grounds
Created by: Doomfiend and Aerial

GVH09

(click to show/hide)

Name: Castle of Ghoulstien
Created by: Mr. Rocket

GVH10

(click to show/hide)

Name: Spire of fate
Created by: Mik57

Map pack for Ghoul vs Humans Endless War

GVH00

(click to show/hide)

Name: Continuum of silence
Created by: Xaser

GVH11

(click to show/hide)

Name: Hollywood Holocaust
Created by: Doomfield and Aerial

GVH12

(click to show/hide)

Name: Urban Decay
Created by: Mik57

GVH13

(click to show/hide)

Name: Bulb Factory
Created by: Captain Bighead

GVH14

(click to show/hide)

Name: The Docks
Created by: Captain Toenail

GVH15

(click to show/hide)

Name: Post-War Technologies
Created by: Captain Bighead and Thor

GVH16

(click to show/hide)

Name: Two Sided Tech Base
Created by: Xutawoo and Phucket

GVH17

(click to show/hide)

Name: Water processing plant
Created by: Mik57

GVH18

(click to show/hide)

Name: Solanid
Created by: Wills

GVH19

(click to show/hide)

Name: Aztech
Created by: Captain Bighead

GVH20

(click to show/hide)

Name: Silent stalker
Created by: Rottking

GVH21

(click to show/hide)

Name: The other side
Created by: Major_Gamer

Map pack for Ghouls vs Humans Cold Demise

GVH22

(click to show/hide)

Name: Graveyard Chill
Created by: Damage

GVH23

(click to show/hide)

Name: Rust
Created by: Doomfiend

GVH24

(click to show/hide)

Name: Hell Frozen Over
Created by: Doomfiend

GVH25

(click to show/hide)

Name: Raider's Den
Created by: Damage

GVH26

(click to show/hide)

Name: Corruption Arena
Created by: DoomthroughDoom

GVH27

(click to show/hide)

Name: Perfect Storm
Created by: R_RR

GVH28

(click to show/hide)

Name: White Out
Created by: Damage

GVH29

(click to show/hide)

Name: Project Skybeam
Created by: Mik57

GVH30

(click to show/hide)

Name: Strange Aeon
Created by: DBThanatos and DS201

Map pack for Ghouls vs Humans New Release

GVH31

(click to show/hide)

Name: Lava and Metal
Created by: Carthief

GVH32

(click to show/hide)

Name: PM me the author of this map
Created by: The Tomb

The purpose of this discussion is to elaborate on the map balance among ourselves and put our minds together and come with a consensus on what is the best maps for both Ghouls and Humans. We will converse over which maps have the best flow, cover, exposure, height, and anything else that factors in what is necessary in combat to weed out lesser maps. This discussion will not only dictate the overall fate of my private map rotation, but to finally settle which maps, and why, are great or poor.

Rules and things to consider:

This is a very serious thread. I will not talorate tom-foolery or one lining of any kind. This is not a bash thread no matter how you feel about something. This is for players to freely speak about which maps, and why, are the most balanced and overall good gems. I will not expect nor condone ambiguity of ANY KIND in this thread. You see a map you have qualms against? Elaborate on what aspects of the map that is displeasing to the game overall. I will remove any post that justifies itself as, "I just don't like it," or, "It's shit." I want you to sell these points to someone that is uninformed -- educate me.

This is not an opinion dump, and I won't have any of it here. It can't be helped that we have points of view and I am very aware this thread will generate this from not only myself and others; however, we can ultimately alleviate the majority of self gratifying opinions from cold hard fact (or closet thing to it). I will clear the smoke now and say that opinions are not inherently wrong, but opinions can be wrong or inaccurate. Please explain your opinion and keep it free from emotional attachment or bias.

As much as I welcome free discussion, it boils absolutely to experience and know-how. This doesn't exclude newer players or the inexperience from voicing what possibly can be evidence, fact, or viable thought but keep in mind that I want, and expect, seasoned, veteran, and "good," players to give input. This might or might not have more weight than you, but if you've only been playing for about two months and don't have the experience enough to give much more insight than either evaluate your stance and post with enough evidence as possible, or sit back and read a bit until something good hits you. Season players, I want you guys to be as behave and considerate as possible.. and provide freakin` evidence.

The final goal of this discussion is to weed out the weaker maps and finally organize what we considered competitive and fair among the maps. Try to only specifically keep it map base while we keep class base minimal. THIS WILL NOT DETERMINE THE OVERALL OUTCOME OF ANY GHOUL VS HUMAN RELEASE. This is mainly for those of us that want to finally step this up a notch and get down to what is and what isn't balance as players.

I will accept arguments as long as PEOPLE KEEP IT CIVIL! DO NOT EVEN ENTICE any player no matter what it is they say. Someone flamed you or said something that is either trolling or baiting? Don't even reply, report it to me immediately and I will remove it (assuming it is breaking the rules). I will not accept flaming, trolling, or one-liners in this thread. I hate to explain so much for a thread like this, but I've seen, and even myself, have gotten out of hand in GVH balance discussion.

Alright guys.. let's do this!

Edit*
http://img820.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=gvh00.png

^ For those that can't access photobucket

[CutmanMike]

Ok I'm just gonna post a few thoughts on the balance of each map. Feel free to call BS because I know I'm the author and I'm probably biased.

GVH01: The random layout of the maps is what makes this map fun, but that's about it. It's all flatland so no Jitter/sjas/creeper kicking your ass over the terrain. It probably is the most balanced map, even if it is dull.

GVH02: Same kind of thing but with more walls. I think this kinda works, there's never a dead end for either human or ghoul as long as they don't camp in the corners. One of my favourites.

GVH03: For small games I really like this map. Anything more than 4v4 and things get crowded though, and the map becomes a clusterfuck. Can get some great games going on this one.

GVH04: Not a good one for humans. Jitterskull can jump up and down the ledges here and hit pretty much anyone running around. Sjas is also good at this too, and I would definitely not include this map in a competitive rotation.

GVH05: Ghouls seem to win on this one all the time. I think it's because the open areas aren't enough, and there's too many tight corridors. The fog also helps creepers a lot, making this a very ghoul orientated map I feel.

GVH06: Very mixed bag this, I would almost say it was balanced. Even though it is a bunch of corridors, humans can get away fairly easily by wrapping around corners. Sjas seems to have the upper hand though, just picking people off without having to aim.

GVH07: Good map. Except for the start points in the buildings which can delay humans if there's too many of them. I disagree with anyone who says this is too open, two sjas can scatter a team of humans.

GVH08: This map used to be called the best, but I don't know why. Way too open, making it a human playground if there's not enough ghouls around. The fog does help the creepers, but not enough to get them to make a comeback and take on humans camping in the corners waiting for them, and in the end it just delays the game. Perfect example of when I should have been more strict with my map collection.

GVH09: With that outside area gone, this is a pretty good map for a large amount of players. Can get a bit slow near the end of LMS, but for everything else this is pretty balanced.

GVH10: Well, it was a lot worse, but Jitterskull armies can still take humans down every time.

GVH11: I know you think I'm mad, but for medium sized games I think this is one of the best layouts. It's cramped as heck, but there's enough doors, corners and corridors to counter that for humans to escape and hide from the likes of Jitterskull and Frostbite. For the final creeper battles, it's pretty tense and I love it.

GVH12: Even with how crazy open this map is, Jitterskulls and sjas always seem to get around the terrain faster than humans and rip them to bits.

GVH13: Other than the odd conveyor belt, the map is mostly flat, so there's no jitterskull rape here. Sjas does seem to be able to get around better though and take out humans easily.

GVH14: Definitely a Ghoul orientated map. It's basically a horizontal stretch with dead ends. There are some places for humans to escape but they're so narrow and you barely have time to get past the oncoming army of ghouls. Better for smaller games I think.

GVH15: Another Ghoul map from personal experience. The interiors are too cramped for human battle, and outside is pretty much Jitter heaven.

GVH16: Cramped to the shit. More than 4 ghouls can make it a clusterfuck, making it a very broken map.

GVH17: Pretty balanced. Even though it has varying terrain, there's enough open areas for humans to get away from Jitterskull armies.

GVH18: Unfortunately this is human hell, due to the terrain and lack of breathing room. 4v4 and no more, or it's curtains for humans.

GVH19: IMO this is too open just like GVH08, and really makes life hard for ghouls. Others will probably disagree, but I think this map is in too favour of the humans.

GVH20: Great map, but during the final stages it can turn into a tedious game of hide and seek. Play with large amounts of players.

GVH21: Mostly Ghoul orientated. You may think not, but that's only because humans can set up a defensive wall pretty quickly. As soon as they scatter they're toast usually.

GVH22: Same case as 21. The outside areas are Jitterskull friendly, so it's not a happy human map after their defence is broken.

GVH23: This map pretty much starts as a clash, that usually ends up in the ghouls ripping apart the humans. Might be down to bad start points, but 90% of the time ghouls win this battle. The outside area is also Jitter paradise again.

GVH24: I still don't understand why, but ghouls seem to conquer on this more than humans too. It's pretty open and there's enough ways to go, but Sjas gets you before you get around each corner.

GVH25: I think this map is pretty good. Ghouls can struggle though getting over that first fence area if the humans have everything ready.

GVH26: Seems to be mostly ghoul orientated, but there's enough ways to run around and avoid Ghoul contact here. Probably better for small games.

GVH27: Kinda balanced. The interior parts will never be used other than for ghouls to hide though.

GVH28: Ghoul orientated. Cramped insides aren't enough for humans to escape in, and Jitter/sjas just laugh at the bumps in the road. Outside area just doesn't give you enough room to dodge Jitterskulls.

GVH29: WAAY too open, ghouls will have a hard time here, especially around the big dish.

GVH30: I haven't played this enough to tell but it seems to be a ghoul's game.

GVH31: So far I think this is mostly a Ghoul map. I blame the corridors, doors and general lack of breathing room.

GVH32: I haven't played this enough yet.

GVH00: A human map. Soooo much space

[TERRORsphere]

I am a software user.

GVH01:
This is actually quite a fun map to play it although it isn't all that interesting. The trees mean you can get cover everywhere. If you are spotted as a creeper, you are pretty much dead though.

GVH02:
This is really for 3v3 - 6v6 games. It's quite fun as cyborg to fly over the chaos looking for creepers. Gotta take out the Sjai before you do that though.

GVH03:
Really just for small games. Isn't an interesting map, the layout just isn't that fun to play in.

GVH04:
Now this is a grand map. Nice high ceilings for the Cyborg to fly around. Jitters have fun with the height variation. Map isn't that good for ghouls with generic movement though. They can't take advantage of the map.

GVH05:
Nothing to say here...

GVH06:
Or here...

GVH07:
This is another fantastic map. The only ghouls here that suffer would be the Sjas and Frostbite.

Big open map but has many forms of cover. Chokes just speed around the map. Creepers can escape and there are many tight passage ways that Creepers can get easy frags unless there is a grenade involved.

Very good for all humans. Hunters lightning arrows, Cyborgs jetpack to avoid everything on the floor checking the map safely.

GVH08:
Only half of this map seems to have effort put into it. The cave seems rushed and is just 1 big flat piece of land. Kinda lame really.

GVH09:
A bug.

This map is a full map. It's more mature than fast paced which is excellent. Creepers have a fun time in the dark.

GVH10:
This is a ghoul based map. The humans have no form of escape unless they are a Cyborg but even then. After destroying most of the ghouls a creeper will fuck your shit up.

Very ghoul based.

GVH00:
Eye candy in software and OpenGL. This map only works for large games, and works really well for that.

Ghouls will need teamwork and skill to win this game.
Humans can all go as Marine or Engineer. Switch to Pistols or Nailgun and circuit the map. Why stop shooting if you got infinite ammo?

GVH11:
I'm sick of this map
This is very human based. As soon as a ghoul goes inside. All the doors are guarded with ice arrows, plasma, nades, traps, and saws.

The only way a ghoul can win is to camp and hope the humans ragequit.

GVH12:
This map is Cyborgs love shack. The Cyborg flys over everything and dodges Sjai. I love this map, it's so fun to play as Cyborg and use everything to your advantage.

GVH13:
Quite a good map. Fun to play as creeper and creep up on the nubs and get it in the face by a more experienced player.

GVH14:
Meh, that's all I can say. This map doesn't appeal to me.

GVH15:
A balanced map. It's fun when you know players routine and rape them at the start.

GVH16:
Awful map. The ceilings are way to low, rooms are way too cramped.

GVH17:
Really fun map. Watch as humans are distracted by team mates then ball them

If not, then use the nicely sized indoors.

Cyborg has a good time outside flying over every threat.

GVH18:
Turd. This map is ugly and the layout is even worse. Outside, the sky is way to low to get any flying action going. Inside is way to tight for any manoeuvring.

GVH19:
Since this map brighten up a bit :P
The layout is actually quite balanced and enjoyable... unless you get the humans camping in the open outside.
Also... it's fun to play as "A bug"

GVH20:
This map looks amazing in software, gameplay is very balanced. This is also a mature map. Not so fastpaced but more strategic.

GVH21:
BLEH! This map. The mirror on mirror action offer wonderful HOM's. Map is very linear which is awful for any map. Especially at competitive one.

GVH22:
Layout is quite dumb. Outside is really open, inside where there are only 2 entrances (both used to defend & camp). Inside is really cramped, outside is really open.

This map is really race to the camp spot.

GVH23:
Quite a fun map. It's also balanced. This size fits all classes apart from the black ghostbuster.

Cover is usually available.

GVH24:[/b]
Software + This map = BLEUGH!!!
this map isn't balanced either. Tall ceilings, height variations yet somewhat cramped. Ghouls map.

GVH25:
Open map. Kinda mature but lacks land marks so you can't team say "I'm near the Cyberdemon statue"

GVH26:
This map is pure bliss. I've never experienced such a full complete map until this. Made with perfection, unicorns and rainbows and diamonds.

This also perfectly balanced. Ghouls actually win 50% of the time and so do humans. This map is also beautiful. If it were a person. I'm sure many people would want to wed it.

However, it is not a person. So you can't marry it but you can lick some awesomesauce off of the strong ribbed linedefs.

This map was also in creation at the very start of GVH. The first GVH map ever, when the marvellous creator believed GVH to be TDM orientated than TLMS which gives it's fantastic gameplay. Which is obviously something to talk about...

GVH27:
dis map is horny lololol im so funt
I never experienced lag on this map, ever. Quite a solid map. Lots of cover yet still open. Inside is a good play to recharge your plasma or balls.

GVH28:
Quite a mature map... if it wasn't for that only the outside is used and using the whole map is apparently "camping".

GVH29:
Ghouls have a hard time here with the massive open spaces and lack of cover. Could do with more crates and more structures.

GVH30:
A mature map for 3v3. Any more then it's a cluster fuck.
Ghoul sided too.

GVH31:
In a 6v2 game I litterer fragged all the humans by going as Sjas, circuiting the map holding my fire button. No skill involved.

In a 3v5 game. I played as Cyborg and used everything to my advantage, fragged 3 of the ghouls, walked into another tunnel only to trip over a creeper.

GVH32:
Echo... funky.
This map is quite fun for 3v3 matches but other wise it's Marines spamming nades, Jitters nomming everything, and Sjas likes that echo effect.



Tl;dr

[CarThief]

Interesting... So i'm guessing this is to kind of weed out the maps and look at what is considered balanced. Possibily for a event if one where to plan it?
Ah, might as well post my own observations, i've been around for ages anyway.

(click to show/hide)

GVH01 (Forbidden Forest): Meh, i get stuck alot. The trees seemingly force everything to stay at ground level, while stopping many people running backwards in their tracks as well. This makes it a tad harder for any sjas to dodg-- err, hope the marines miss their bullets.

Meh, its slightly human sided, but can be fairly balanced, just depends on the players.

GVH02 (Megadeth Deathmatch): Pretty balanced in short. One can camp in the corners as ghoul or human, though the marines almost always get me here if i do not catch them by suprise. Suprise attacks in this fast paced map can be lethal.

Hmm... I guess it is pretty balanced too. But slightly caters to the ghoul side in larger games, as the ghouls easily surround and kill the humans as they run as headless chickens and get intercepted/suprise attacked as well.

GVH03 (Wagi Caves): Meh, not sure, humans can camp like hell in here, but this map can allow for some ghoul carnage as well.

I guess its balanced enough, it just depends mostly on player's actions to lose or win.

GVH04 (Claw Fist): Ah, a favourite. It gives Sjas and Jitterskull exellent movement options, but the humans seem to have their own tactic as well.

Meh, quite balanced, i suppose. As long as one watches out for the sudden Jitterskull suprise attack or doesnt get sandwitched by ghouls. Slightly ghoul sided.

GVH05 (Winter Haunting): Err... Fair enough a balanced map in most cases. Some potential camping zones, though.

I guess it slightly caters to humans this time. Mostly if they camp outside or effeciently in one of the inside rooms. Just slightly though, as it is not that effecient in this map.

GVH06 (Arcade Souls): Hmm... Tricky... No idea...

Just depends on the players, i guess. Balanced enough i suppose, just make sure you try to catch a human by suprise, not run into them from the other side of the hallway!

GVH07 (Dark Station): Err... Caters to the humans a little regarding its open spaces, but it still allows for a skilled sjas to take down a few humans. Not so good for most of the ghouls if they're slow.

GVH08 (The Hunting Grounds: Ugh. I hate this map, because its a human map. :P
VERY many open area's, some unique camping zones, and plenty to kill all but the fastest ghouls, as speed counts in this map.

GVH09 (Castle Ghoulenstein): Uhh... Need i say more... Even after the changes it still majorly caters to humans as it simply takes long to reach the humans where they will have plenty of shooting time. A win for the ghouls is not completely out of the question though.

GVH10 (Spire of fate): Hmm... The map with its rubble does not cater to human movement in the center parts. Hunters may prove effecient at sniping in this map from the heights, marines do fine here as well.

Its... Mostly balanced, but slightly caters to ghouls as they can surround, swarm, and move effortlessly in this terrain.

GVH11 (Hollywood Holocaust): I love this one. Pure rape, hehe... Right... Most of the time, humans scatter around, and shoot everything in sight - bad idea. They will be picked off one by one, untill no-one's left, this happens alot. Ideally, this IS a fairly balanced map IF the humans decide to be effecient by camping somewhere, and doing so like a true noobcamper. Little stops the ghouls from raping in TDM though.

Balanced (if humans actually tried) in TLMS, not such a good idea in TDM.

GVH12 (Urban Decay): Ah, another map said to be ghoul sided. Hard to disagree with, effecient Jitterskull and Sjas mobility, Jitterskulls especially do fine here. Easy enough to get killed by a ghoul from God knows where or even sniped by a Choke (poor Cutman, lol, i still remember).

In short: Ghoul sided, althrough, it does have a extremely abuseable camping spot, if they abuse that(yes, its so powerfull i call it abuse), they can win quite well.

GVH13 (Blud Factory): Hmm... Seems balanced. All on the same ground but with obstacles and even i can get a few domination medals here and same for the humans. No significant complaints aside yelling at the countless marines that sometimes swarm this map. Balanced.

GVH14 (The Docks): Hmm... At first seemingly human sided, but if you plan your attacks strategically, and suprise them, its not so hard to get rid of the campers then. Pretty balanced.

GVH15 (Post-War Technologies): Hmm... Hard to say... I cannot find significant ghoul advantadges aside Jitterskull's ease to move around at the moutain area and to go anywhere quickly. Though there are some popular human spots with a retreat into the forest so the humans can escape death if they're good at surviving on their own.

Hmm... Both ghouls and humans have potential to win and lose here, i gues its balanced, unless of course they camp, that sometimes changes things.

GVH16 (Two-Sided Techbase): Oh this map is so pure rape... Hehehe... The doors are so small often the humans will get stuck, making a quick meal for me as Jitterskull and pretty much any ghoul player can do well here.
Hmm... But... Things get really tricky in TLMS when they camp in the red teleporter room though. In that case its a lost cause, trying to win as a ghoul.

In short, JITTERRAPE!!!!! But when they abuse the ultimate camping spot, its hopeless to try unless they grow impatient.

GVH17 (Water Processing Plant): Err... Should be balanced in medium or large games. In small games the humans might win a bit more if they make use of that large amount of space.

Balance is very situational, i cannot say wether it is balanced or caters to a side.

GVH18 (Solanid): Yeah... In games with even remotely 3-4 ghouls the ghouls will undoubtedly be given an advantadge by the enviroment if they're Jitterskulls or sjas. There is alot of cover for the ghouls to hide behind, Jitterskulls and Sjas move effortlessly while easily taking cover, and the humans dont even got a good camping spot here.

Definetly ghoul sided. Utter rape in large games.

GVH19 (Aztec): Caters somewhat to humans considering the massive open space and hallways that easily block entrance if one snipes through them or spams plasma/traps. Slow ghouls definetly dont survive long here if there's marines about.

GVH20 (Silent Stalker): Amazingly balanced in small games, perhaps medium games too. Camping zones arent too dreadfully effecient and sometimes even circumvented by a nice alternative path, almost nothing has only 1 entrance and can call itself a effecient camping spot.

Pretty much a balanced map, if both players know what they're doing.

GVH21 (The Other Side): Hmm... Kind of caters to the humans a little as they can effortlessly camp and trap the teleporters at will, the map layout also allows for almost no suprises regarding suprise attacks or approaching the enemy safely.

GVH22 (Graveyard Chill): Hmm... Also slightly caters to humans in TLMS, very slightly. But with recent changes, once the ghouls break through the human camping defences, it becomes much more... amusing.

Well, i'd say this is aside the camping thing(what is pretty much a thing meant to be overcome), pretty balanced.

GVH23 (Rust): Hmm... Camping zone... Easy to pick off humans, though... Meh, i'd say it is balanced as long as the amount of players is suitable for this map.

GVH24 (Hell Froze Over): Meh, lots of running. Many hallways, some open spaces, most certainly caters to the humans somewhat. Doesnt prevent them from getting suprise attacked, sandwitched, surrounded, or raped, though.

I'd say this is a little human sided. If they know what they're doing.

GVH25 (Raider's Den): Uhh... If this aint human sided then the world may randomly explode and turn upside down. I dont really need to say more.

GVH26 (Courrupt Arena): I... Dont know, people avoided this odd map quite alot when it bugged and caused massive lag, also this map decided to be an abomination by while it lagged, constantly returning after a map ended, as if the server list locked on to this one.

Gameplay wise... No idea. Havent played it much, though not much of significance to boost either side. Possibily balanced.

GVH27 (Perfect Storm): Hmm... On one side a group of hitscan humans may utterly rape here, on the other side, there's little place to run to once they miss enough times to be put face to face with the most unfriendly pair of faces, teeth, or hands.

Seems fairly balanced if the ghouls dont instantly desintergrate by being looked at by a group of marines.

GVH28 (White Out): Err... Balanced if the ghouls can manage to drive humans away into other ghouls and sandwitch em.

GVH29 (Project: Strikebeam): Definetly human sided, but not the worst of them all, it atleast provides some height differences and cover, making things hard, but not impossible.

GVH30 (Strange Aeons): Hard to say... Though it'll probaly cater to ghouls mostly. Though there's plenty of ground for the humans to try to camp.

GVH31 (Lava And Metal): Ah, i made this. :P Hmm... Probaly ghoul sided, considering with Jitterskull i can utterly rape with suprise attacks from the vents, and hide in the vents after getting a meal too. Humans shouldnt have it that bad here though, i think.

GVH32 (The Tomb): Hmm... No idea. It is rather open but not too open for the humans to run forever. Though i havent played this alot. Hard to say, possibly ghoul sided due to the small area it is.

GVH00 (Continuum of Silence): Right... Undoubtedly a human map. But the ghouls do have a fighting chance.

So... If i where to make a list of what seems balanced:
GVH02, GVH03, GVH06, GVH11 if they actually try, GVH13, GVH14, perhaps GVH15, definetly GVH20, GVH22, GVH23, GVH27.
This is probaly far from perfect though.

Also, DTD appears to be in love with his abomin-- err, creation. :P

[TERRORsphere]

Also, DTD appears to be in love with his masterpie-- err, map. :P

I didn't do anything wrong. It was the newer version of Skulltag that did that.

[CarThief]

Ah well, just a crude joke and some observations of what happened. :P
Guess Skulltag sometimes messes up things, ah... Like bots...

Also, it is the cold, hard, painfull truth, regarding the marines. Especially painfull if you're on the ghoul team.

[Mobius]

I agree with Cut about GVH01 and 02, especially 01. That is probably the most balanced map of the entire GVH series. It has plenty of cover with both ghouls and humans, but also certain areas that are either claustrophobic or open enough to utilize. There is also enough places for the Sjas to hide and make a comeback on an entire human team if the cards are dealt right.

GVH03 is by far, the least balance map ever. I wouldn't even recommend it for private because of damage sectors. That is not only not rewarding to humans, but ghouls as well. Humans would find it painstakingly impossible to fend for themselves in that pit, but also the small part of land they do have would be enough for 1 jitter to decimate them. The amount of room given to them is not enough unless they go to the corridors as cyborgs or hunters and camp. There's normally a Mexican stand-off when a 1on1 occurs.

GVH04 is one I am on the fence for because it has everything, but too much of everything. The small cramped areas with high vertical walls is a jitter's feasting grounds. I would suggest spacing that area apart and perhaps we'll have something to work with. The rest of the map is actually fine if you know how to play matador.

I don't know how you can say that about GVH05 though. I think that map with a 3on3 would be superb. It has a wide open field with some vertical heights that Jitters and creepers can make use of, the textures for creepers is about right, there is enough cover in and out doors for sjas but enough open area for humans to pummel fliers. Chokes can easily snip from entrances and you have a blend of cramped areas with some dead ends creepers could exploit if a jitter or frostbite accompanies them. Now in a 7+ game then yeah, humans don't win so often here.

I agree with GVH06 surprisingly. It has a bit of everything if you are a veteran player. Players that take their time on fighting normally win in this map, so I can easily see a 3on3 or 4on4 here being ideal.

GVH07 is my mixed bag. I agree with DTD about the Frostbite claim more-so than Sjas, because Sjas can still shark and not rush humans so quickly. Chokes have vantage points but they need to travel with a ghoulfriend :P to get something done.

I'll get into a physical fight with anyone that says GVH08 is good. This is, by far, the most human orientated map out of them all. This has WAY too many open spaces and long corridors that projectile users can take advantage of. The only ghouls I see using this map to any effect or Creepers and very, very skilled chokes.

I suppose we can all agree that GVH09 is possibly one of the better maps from the earlier installments. My only gripe is the large corridors around the castle that can help humans a little, but otherwise chokes can pretty much do a lot without help.. and that is saying a lot. I can't really think of anything bad about this map considering that it forces sjas users to take it easy, jitters might have a problem with cover, and maybe ghostbusters need to be a bit closer to fight and hit something. I see nothing wrong with this map in larger games either.

Haha. I can't seem to agree with you both about GVH10. This is one of my personal favorite maps.. AS A HUMAN! I don't want to brag, but on Canadian Bacon, SuperGod, and Cronium -- I have smashed Ghoul teams by myself (as a marine). The new version of the map has made it possible for humans to take ground base ghouls apart without fear of retaliation, and the open sky makes sjas sitting ducks (forcing pro sjas players to stay near the ground). Jitters have a somewhat advantage, but in a priv of 3 to 4on4, I don't see much of a problem. I don't know, probably just me.

I hate GVH11. There is nothing redeeming about this map for either classes unless you're a frostbite, Cyborg, Marine, or Jitter. Too many cramped spaces and Mexican stand-offs turned me off to this map. Especially at the ducts where anything projectile related reigns supreme. I wouldn't use this made competitively.

I despise GVH12 for the opposite reasons, but I'll give it a chance for a priv of 4on4 maximum. I think anything exceeding that amount and it becomes a Ghoul map hands down.

GVH13 is one of those maps where you love and hate it. This is also one of the very few maps a pro choke player can pretty much have fun without being raped. There is WAY too many hiding spots to snipe from and coware too, but loops enough to retreat. The only terrible part of this map is that the ghoul spawns are specifically at a part where this is only one solid entrance.. making it hard for humans to retreat there because of how cramped it is.

GVH14 is a sjas map. Long linear paths with enough room to move, but also contains enough road blockage for humans to be cornered in. I think this map is only made for priv of 3on3 or 4on4.

GVH15 is too large to be enjoyed privately. There is also the risk of a Mexican stand-off by the corner of the inside where cyborgs camp at. You should make it loop or something because a priv there is asking for trouble. Good map nonetheless.

We can all agree that GVH16 is tossed from private or any competitive sense. I will also point out how I even love camping behind the teleport as a cyborg can destroy a ghoul team.

GVH17 is perfect in every way. There is enough cramped areas but offer escapes, plenty of loops, many ways of entry, enough open spaces, and great heights but with enough evasive room for jitters and humans.

Solanid -- Worst map next to Tech Base in the Endless War pack. The new version is greatly superior, and I might give this a chance for a 3on3 private... might, if the entrances were a little spaced open.

Aztec is probably one of the most confusing maps I have played on. I don't know whether this map favors Hunters, cyborgs, or Engineers. I mean, ghouls can get around through the forest outside, but even that isn't enough. Then there is the LONG CORRIDOR on the right wing that is just sick and dumb. This map would need some work before I take it competitively, but it is fun for large games though.

GVH20.. best. Map. Ever. By far one of the gems of Endless War. I think we can all agree on it being one of the most balanced maps for GVH, but Cutty is right about it being hide and seek in the end. This map will make a great addition to large 6on6 privates or public games.

GVH21 is just no fun at all. It's a camper match for humans, and particularly for any class that recharges. I'd toss this out of private, to be honest. I've seen ghouls get broke here, but then I have seen Jitters carry a ghoul team (same with creepers). Fuck this map.

WHAT?! You both don't think GVH22 is competitive? It is, to me, one of the better maps of CD. The graveyard and openness of the map is broken by the amount of creeper cover and blockage. The caverns around the outside can be both good and bad for humans, because the ceiling height is too low for jitters to fully scale the place (or even sjas). The inside is possibly the worst thing about this map though, and I can agree with that completely. I won't say this map favors humans though, but I can see it being a large problem if 2 cyborgs and 2 ghost busters just wanted to stay in doors. A small game is the best this map has to offer.

Rust.. I don't know. The only thing I can see in this map is the corridor leading to the outside on the right wing entrance. The crates can be a pain in the ass too. I really like this map, but I don't know about it being competitive enough.

I don't think any one of us can argue about GVH24. Low ceilings, cramped spots everywhere, too wide here, too narrow there, and way to much noise in front of you (mid texture much?).

GVH25.. man. I will never add this to my rotation. I don't even need to explain it.

I will have to say, DTD made a decent and fun map. I will have to also say that I am not entirely sure I wanna make this a competitive map for private rotation, because of one aspect of this map. This map has too many low ceiling and narrow halls that would just bum fuck ghouls like no other, and the cave is just marine camp. Shit, a mediocre marine in that map around there can do wonders for a human team. It'd be worst in small games because a very heavily support human team with that area locked down will ALWAYS win. ALWAYS.

I don't know enough about GVH27 to reasonably add or decline this map. I can probably say it deserves a chance with its spaced crates and cover for both ghouls and humans.

GVH28 is my baby. This is my favorite map of all time. I love the music, I love the ambiance, I love everything about this map. Would I add it to private? No. This map is FAR TOO LARGE and looped for a 4on4 or even 5on5. This map was specifically designed for 20+ players. The lack of cover outside helps humans fend off against a lot of ghoul types.. I can't see this working competitively, and that makes me sad. The entrances to the core of the map is too spaced apart, so an ample mind game to bait a player is out of the question.

GVH29 is like GVH28 back when CD first released, now it's shit for chokes. I still wouldn't add this to rotation no matter what, but it is fun for public nonetheless. We can all agree this map is marine friendly and hunter friendly. I was thinking of suggestion a low ceiling construction site around the bowl as an excuse for cover so Sjas and Frostbites can duck behind cover of some kind.

GVH30 is one of those maps you need to know your way around or you're fucked. Humans have to work harder to win, and that alone breaks a balance. I do find humans staying at the chapel more-so than needed, which cost them their lives. I think a pro human team can make the most of this map over ghouls if they pick their fights. I'll give it a 3on3 to 4on4 chance before tossing this completely.

You both are batshit insane imo GVH31 is THE BEST balanced map currently released. I have seen so much rage over this map that it isn't even funny, and I blame those on the inexperienced or shitty players. I am sorry, but I saw this map from the first day Carthief made it to how ti is now as the main tester dummy for it. The ducts, by far, is what makes this map a pro map for either team. The maze like structure overlaying the obvious wide up room-to-room exterior is not only fresh, but tactically viable.

 As any human class, I've made work of ghouls by playing hide and seek. The amount of loops, cover, and even obvious area choice is what makes this map great. As a ghoul, you only need to rush a little, go into a duct, and play some mind games and you're set. What I see happen a lot when I F12 everyone is that people fight on this map traditionally, which is a huge mistake a lot of players make. I always, and you can even ask Carthief, use and say for others to use the ducts. You can get out of nearly any situation with the proper timing of duct usage. My only problem with this map is for classes like Cyborgs which can fill up a linear duct easily, making it harder for ghouls to capitalize (unless you're a frostbite). I'd say throw it in private and give it a 4on4 shot.

GVH32.. I love the hollowness. I wouldn't add this to a private though. Way too open. Too small for combat or tactical retreats.

GVH00 looks nice, plays like arse. Too many open spaces, too many narrow corridors, and not enough height for jitters to utilize. Frostbite sucks on this map, and that is pathetic.

Hey, Carthief. How about putting some thought behind your list other than saying, "It is balanced."

[CarThief]

Ah, figured you might have been searching that instead of people voicing their opinion and experience on maps. Atleast someone likes GVH31, pretty neat for mind games alright, if there isnt too many players.

Hmm... I suppose i could go and post a more... in depth observation of the maps at some point when i feel like it. :P
And some people really like them vents/ducts, hehe... As Jitter i always use them to escape after eating, if not my source for a suprise attack.
Did make a recent change to it though regarding the doors. Hmm... Too bad ACS isnt always as cooperative but it worked out.

And you just like my map that much or you really find it more balanced then say, GVH20? :P

[Mobius]

GVH20 is more like slow romance rather than GVH31 which is like foreplay.

On one hand, you have a direct assault with plenty of terrain on one map, but on the other you could pussy foot around. I'd say GVH20 is more balanced only that you have plenty of wide up non-linearity unless you're a human. The ducts are awesome in GVH31, but certain classes (cyborgs) can abuse it to oblivion.

[CarThief]

Ah, if you mean by using it as a means to get around, Jitterskulls and Sjas get that oppertunity as well. And anyone can climb a ladder.

In case of camping, well, they're designed to be either short or twisting around a bit so its not a long tunnel, instead, it has corridors/corners/whatever. Making it hard if not impossible to guard both sides at the same time. :P
A good ol Jitter suprise charge into a vent/high area never gets old, either.

[TERRORsphere]

I will have to say, DTD made THE BEST MAP IN ALL OF EXISTENCE. Blah blah blah

Low ceilings.

Ok I'm working back on it.

[Mobius]

Ah, if you mean by using it as a means to get around, Jitterskulls and Sjas get that oppertunity as well. And anyone can climb a ladder.

Creepers make more use of the ducts than either of them, to be honest.

In case of camping, well, they're designed to be either short or twisting around a bit so its not a long tunnel, instead, it has corridors/corners/whatever. Making it hard if not impossible to guard both sides at the same time. :P
A good ol Jitter suprise charge into a vent/high area never gets old, either.

No, I don't really agree with that. There's some of the ducts that are linear enough to see someone coming, and the sound either of them makes will help a cyborg/ghost buster/hunter make ample use of it. I am not saying to ditch the ducts, but that's the reason why GVH20 is a lot more balanced. Except for the hallway in that one building.

[CarThief]

Ah, i use vents too, as Jitterskull, they do miracles. :P

Ah... The long hallway of doom. And the vents dont prevent them from getting sandwitched inside or possibily shot/attacked by frost breath. Its not perfect, but it'll do, i'm sure. Besides, who ever comes into the vents if they camp there? They'd run out in impatience before they ever killed anyone!

Hmm... Not feeling up for posting more in-depth map stuff yet. Maybe i could post every concievable thing that can be done in all of the maps, makes for a long post, though. :P And i'm not entirely sure for what goal, either.

[Mobius]

You know, Carthief. That last paragraph could have been dedicated to actually contributing to the objective of this thread.

The vents kind of protect human players that have power shots like the plasma, considering its already vivid speed and strength. Then their ability to recharge and have an ample amount of ammunition and waiting time that they can't get sandwhiched.

[CarThief]

Hmm... Well i can imagine creative ghouls will throw a bloodball at them or use frost breath. Cant say that always works but atleast the vents only are so long and go so far, its not like its unavoidable, atleast. :P
Hmm... The humans rarely show some real strategy these days though, its been ages since i've seen an indestructable noobcamping group in Two-Sided Techbase. Thats probaly a good thing... For me. :P

Hmm... And giving every map strategy/detail/information possibile would contribute to this topic, you mean? If so, i guess i could write a gigantic post sometime when bored.