MM8BDM Community Disscussion: Problems and Solutions

[-RanRan]

Also, you're attacking me.

I'm not attacking you in the slightest. You may be interpreting that post as such in order to dismiss me, but I'm afraid that's simply not true. What IS true is that I was attacking the issue instead of "discussing it." Take that how you will, but it's entirely justified when the point being made is outright preposterous. But if I truly must...

My first quote simply states that you have no organized plan to rectify the issue. You're simply calling people "Jaded", "Selfish", and "Trolls". Especially odd that you're attacking these players, seeing that the second quote again pulls the "I'm being attacked" card. If you're going to try and make change, PLEASE HAVE A BASIS FOR YOUR ARGUMENTS. Otherwise, you're only going to perpetuate the "derailing and locking" that you're so concerned about. You can't come out and say something controversial with no basis and dismiss everyone as a troll or flamer and tell them not to post. That's not how intelligent discourse works, I'm sorry.

Oj.. *sigh* Actually, I don't have to explain that one. Because primarily this:

My first quote simply states that you have no organized plan to rectify the issue. You're simply calling people "Jaded", "Selfish", and "Trolls".

Retify that against this, please:

(click to show/hide)

After the first 55 minutes of what I can only describe as "the absolute worst" in our community's player base, we were able to actually make headway with the discussion.

Basically, here's what we were able to work out.

Our community is dying. And for three reasons.

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish,  jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.

For those of us playing the home game of "Spot The Accusation", I'll point it out.

(click to show/hide)

After the first 55 minutes of what I can only describe as "the absolute worst" in our community's player base, we were able to actually make headway with the discussion.

Basically, here's what we were able to work out.

Oj, I'm not sure if you seem to be reading it, or if you're intentionally lying and accusing because accusations, but I never said I.

I said we.
You know, more than one? A group? Like the one I brought together? The one you were in? The one you can go pull this information from?

I never said these were my direct conclusions, nor did I imply them. Neither did I push them as my ideals. They are a collective conclusion made by the discussion, which I barely saved from falling apart, but is now in tatters. Along with the non-existant credibility.

Every time you kept repeating yourself so far, you keep saying I (-Ran) typed these words, and pasted them here. Would you like me to pull fact from the discussion? All you have to do is ask. However, that's a whole different side issue. What I'm concerned about is this:

Following the logic you keep throwing at me -- and the fact you have *yet* to offer your opinion on the matter presented, by the way -- you're putting false words into my hands and mouth, as well as pulling for strings to vilify me more with than I already have.  

Which means you're lying. Which I have a problem with.

Allow me to quote myself.

(click to show/hide)

I'm not insulting everyone. Those, in the quotes are the exact things everyone in the call and chat agreed were the root problems. If you don't believe me, I'll happily copypasta to you every conversation main and on the side.

[/quote]

OJ, I don't remember you being there, but from your words, I see you were.

Also, I never said "toxic players are toxic so this is why". That was the public opinion agreed upon by those actually willing to discuss it. Was my opinion involved in it? yes, it was. However, I was not the sole person who agreed on this.

What i'm seeing right now is that you're viewing this as a issue of the good (white) and the ones the one participating in the discussion deemed as those at fault (black). It's not. The entirety of it is that everyone responsible is in the grey.

That's why it's damn near impossible to point out a cause, reason and fault. Everyone's got a right for their own opinions and ideals, and having one person ( i.e. myself) attempt to do something like this with my kind of credibility and visibility and pull on the fourms  (again, no longer existing) will make *anyone* feel singled out, threatened and alienated.

However, what we have come up with is the community's say. Not my direct thoughts, not my implications and accusations.

These are the words of our own users, or at the ones who gave enough of a damn to actually talk, instead of troll for 1:55:52.

Now, if that's not what you're coming at me for, OJ, you're going to need to explain yourself without ripping my words out of context. Because you haven't. You say one thing, and then you take something out of context, and attempt to word it as proof of some ploy by me. That's my opinion.

I may be wrong, but there's no way to find out unless you're forthcoming. And you *still* haven't attempted to make an actual attempt at a plan, according to the consensus.


Now then, since he seems not willing to make one; I will.


Now, in the case our problem is one of disinterest, all we have to do is encourage those players who refuse to play other things because they feel unskilled at them by taking them by the hand, introducing them to the mode, and playing it with them, and then doing that on a regular basis so there's more than just Saxton Hale servers that are pulling most of the attention.

If the problem turns out to be one of resistance to playing because of the boredom with the basegame, which I define as the game modes we play on: DM, T/LMS, Duel, CTF, and the wildcard modes we've made over the years (In this context: Saxton, (Rage)Robo, ScrewScramble, BotApoc, Classes etc..)  -- which is the core of every mode and gametype we play, not just a object that we can easily point at and say:" Oh, anything using mods on a server are pure evil, and vanilla is the only way! "  -- then we have to take the second option:

Creating a game-type and game mode that appeal to those who are resistant to changing from it, and those who immerse fully in it now.

[Orange juice :l]

So what you're saying is that the chat as a collective couldn't come up with any solutions?

[*Alice]

Our community is dying

I think that this community dying is not a problem at all.
I mean, all that is happening is the people who have one opinion being douches to the ones having another opinion (and the other way round).
And honestly, that is the most normal thing in the world.
If this community really ends up dead everyone will still have those group chats running and still spend time together (I talk from experience). And that would be good for everyone because they would only see the people they spent the most time with and probably got along best.

The game being not the mm8bdm some people knew and loved in the past is indeed true, but calling it so bad it's killing the community is really just hyperbole. It is the players, Ran. Not the game.

Honestly, I think this thread should just be locked because all this will probably cause is whining or accusations.

[Emmanuelf06]

To change people is difficult, or impossible, everybody has his mood for each thing of the life...for mm8bdm too. I play specially class TLMS/TDM when i can (and saxton but it's because there is a lot of people in the server....)
We have like 40-50 people sometimes on the servers, it's not really dying, but it can be better certainly (:
Also, i will host a TLMS Vanilla style with pack maps I think, let's try if the "last survivor style" like "Counter strike" can be more interesting, yeah, we can't respawn but it's a more "calm" style...more "soft" ?

DM Normal mode or Duel is hard for a lot of people because, I think, A lot of people become really STRONG in this game, i dont play a lot but compared to the beginning of this game, i can see a lot of players who has a lot of capacities/potential in this game (but a lot play LMSgames or Class Saxton....)

We can't change people but we can find ideas to show to people others ways to play this game (as OJ said?), Invite them! Don't force them!
edit:
I did a tlms vanilla server with a lot of packmaps (maybe too much?).

[MusashiAA]

I entirely support Alice's post 100 %

This kind of topic always ends up being an endless back and forth argument check that will not result in anything. Mine did, OJ's did, and so will this.

Fangame communities ALWAYS end up like this, as far as my own experiences have taught me: the community begins as full of brimming activity correlated with the playerbase (innocence), mods flourish and diversify tastes (puberty), until all that's left is a handful of old players-now-forumgoers grumping about the good ol' days that never come back until the next game update and for a short moment, while mantaining a relationship with their fellow forumgoers (adulthood), and a handful of new players that have stuck with a group of specific mods on specific servers that rarely connect with the community or the base game.

This is the natural course of a community's life. We still talk, some of us still discuss about the game, some of us still make stuff: what we all don't do much is play the game unless something cool comes out (which it always eventually will), because we've outgrown the game. What started as a group of people gathering around to share their excitement and experiences with an online game has turned into a group of acquaintances who gather to talk about many, many other things besides the online game.

Is the community dead? No, and it's not because "it isn't as alive as it used to be". Sure, MM8BDM isn't (and wasn't) popular enough to keep it brimming with new players gathering to talk about their game experiences, but if people still make stuff for it, and discuss in it about anything, you have to accept that the community hasn't died.

[Emmanuelf06]

I entirely support Alice's post 100 %

This kind of topic always ends up being an endless back and forth argument check that will not result in anything. Mine did, OJ's did, and so will this.

Fangame communities ALWAYS end up like this, as far as my own experiences have taught me: the community begins as full of brimming activity correlated with the playerbase (innocence), mods flourish and diversify tastes (puberty), until all that's left is a handful of old players-now-forumgoers grumping about the good ol' days that never come back until the next game update and for a short moment, while mantaining a relationship with their fellow forumgoers (adulthood), and a handful of new players that have stuck with a group of specific mods on specific servers that rarely connect with the community or the base game.

This is the natural course of a community's life. We still talk, some of us still discuss about the game, some of us still make stuff: what we all don't do much is play the game unless something cool comes out (which it always eventually will), because we've outgrown the game. What started as a group of people gathering around to share their excitement and experiences with an online game has turned into a group of acquaintances who gather to talk about many, many other things besides the online game.

Is the community dead? No, and it's not because "it isn't as alive as it used to be". Sure, MM8BDM isn't (and wasn't) popular enough to keep it brimming with new players gathering to talk about their game experiences, but if people still make stuff for it, and discuss in it about anything, you have to accept that the community hasn't died.

Yup, it's not dead and not so bad....
This game need to be more popular, it's the reason I did and will do again some conventions where i show mm8bdm to people.
Ran-, exemple, look at that: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-y_cpYq0z0&hd=1
The best way to have new players who can be like you (vanilla fan) is to get new players WHO can be fan of vanilla skill style!

You can change people to be like you....people are like they want.
You can invite new players....make the game more popular, like the videos of bluebrawl (Mendez) who explain some things of the game; me with the convention and MM8BDM Stand (Class mode + DM because people first play with copyweap and try some robotmasters later, it's cool), or with others things. Find the ideas!

You can make a blog, a forum, spread the word with a topic on some forums (i did that on facebook megaman page and french forums!)
Oh and sorry ALICE,i didnt understand the point of your though in the last threat/topic like that XDDD Yeah, the community is good even if we dont have so much people (any)more. I just hope we will have always some new players (because some others left...)
I will love always this community, even if there was some problems or i had personnal problems, We have good quality or bad though, nobody is perfect, just enjoy the game as it is.
Sorry for my english again ^_^

[Shade Guy]

I will not scrutinise -Ran's approach, mainly because it is irrelevant. I think it was King Dumb who said that although presentation is crucial in real life, it can be excused in an online environment. -Ran shows concern for MM8BDM, regardless of intention or method, and I respect that.

The following may be slightly irrelevant, but a thought occurred to me after reading King Dumb's post in the State of the Servers topic concerning disinterest in the community. I will state my interest and activity in the community; I know this topic is not about individual stories, but I will attempt to draw a discussion of a wider portion of the community from it.

It is likely that I contribute to MM8BDM more than I play it. No matter how often I play MM8BDM, I still regularly open up Slade and Doom Builder 2 for mapping purposes. Perhaps it will reach the point where I grow disinterested in playing the game, but continue mapping because it is my hobby (or I don't know any better). But as a developer, I believe that my direct contributions to the game allow me to, by extension, contribute to the community positively. I admit, things will not remain this way; I am already close to finishing my mapping obligations for MM8BDM v4a, and as such, subsequent contributions will only be for external mods (at least until I am needed for another official expansion). But even then, as long as I can provide some variety in servers with my contributions, and it does not go unplayed, I believe I will still contribute positively.

From this, let's define two stances in this community from this: internal and external modders. Internal modders are developers. Simply, as long as a developer creates content for the game (and it does not detract from it), it is a positive contribution. It is true that there can be a disconnect between developers and the game. However, I do not believe such a disconnect is an issue as long it does not alter a person's judgement. External modders covers everything beyond internal modders. Even external mods can contribute to the community positively. Roboenza, Rage Roboenza, Classes and Saxton Hale: yes, the community is guilty of falling into a rut by over-playing each one, but there was a period where each one was the 'next big thing'.

I know this is a gross oversimplification, but one solution to the community's stagnancy is for the next 'next big thing' to occur. Much easier said than done, yes, but I say this to emphasise that the power to 'save the community from the oppression of Saxton Hale and/or Classes' as one might put it is in the power of any modder's hands. If you can identify with me, and contribute to MM8BDM more than you play it, you can still positively contribute to the community as long as your mods do not go unplayed or unreleased.

[CarThief]

Meh, while i hardly ever participate in MM8BDM-related stuff (mostly due to MASSIVE lag), i might as well post my own thoughts and observations.

1. Well this just seems like the inevitable result of a community after most of its popularity wears off, the golden age has passed, all people have left is looking back at better times and blame the current times for being what they are, even if it cant be helped. Large-scale updates may temporarily relieve the problem but the good stuff has passed, its only going downwards now, or at best it'll stay roughly the same if new players come in at a decent enough rate. Cant say there really is a fix for it, people just go to the newer shiney thing and move on.

2. This is the inevitable fate of any game on Skulltag and Zandronum, you cant fight it, really. The core game will get old and people will take the (highly intended, no doubt) modding freedom to improve upon said game or make things of their own they deem more interesting to replace it. But hey, no-one's being stopped from hosting their favourite old thing, its still a viable method if you got friends to bring in and draw a crowd. Hm, not to mention, competition may grow old and unwanted in a community of such young age, where they prefer to exchange competition of old with the fun silly and meaningless game(mode)s of new.

3. I cant blame em for giving up, all communities eventually dry up and go away. How many communities have you been part of since you where a kid? I'd imagine the common person in this day and age would have been in and passed through atleast 4-6 of them. This is just another one of many, really. Only reason why i'm still around is because of the sheer moddability of the port, which is a great extender of a game or community's life. And with all this, is there any true fix at all? At best we could wait until Cutman makes a new fancy game and an new community arises.

And somewhat unrelated, godamn, this... THING, got 3 pages in a single day, but the good ol Minecraft topic hasnt gotten stuff in ages? Bah, now THAT is more of a hopeless situation then the community's current status. Cant a man have his occasional Minecraft fix without having to rely on dodgy, griefer heavy online communities...?

[Jman]

Believe me when I say I was in a community in MUCH deeper shit than this one...

When I played this one online game that was towards the end of its life, I was a part of a rather large forum for discussing it. I was probably the youngest one in the forum, in comparison to all the people there in their mid 20's. Overall, I was pretty quick to leave the place. It just wasn't pleasant at all. The forum also had no organization whatsoever, people could spam whatever they wanted on the topics, start new topics for everything, and more. Oh, and did I mention about half of the community was made up of people like a certain nefarious troll in this community?

I came here to cutstuff after leaving that sausage-fest, and sure, this place has its own share of drama and flame wars, but it all pales in comparison to what I saw there.

[-RanRan]

So what you're saying is that the chat as a collective couldn't come up with any solutions?

Yes, and no.

People were coming up with ideas and solutions, and I wrote down several of them, so that I could repost them and give credit to those who came up with them. The problem was people couldn't be heard because trolling, and people were dedicating their time to flooding the chat and being as large as a problem as possible -- which was a choice they made to hinder the actual constructive wealth of the gathering.

(click to show/hide)

Believe me when I say I was in a community in MUCH deeper shit than this one...

When I played this one online game that was towards the end of its life, I was a part of a rather large forum for discussing it. I was probably the youngest one in the forum, in comparison to all the people there in their mid 20's. Overall, I was pretty quick to leave the place. It just wasn't pleasant at all. The forum also had no organization whatsoever, people could spam whatever they wanted on the topics, start new topics for everything, and more. Oh, and did I mention about half of the community was made up of people like a certain nefarious troll in this community?

I came here to cutstuff after leaving that sausage-fest, and sure, this place has its own share of drama and flame wars, but it all pales in comparison to what I saw there.

I'm also not sure how this is relevant to the topic and subject at hand. Also, who would this nefarious troll be?... Actually, don't answer that, that's not conducive to our goal either.

(click to show/hide)

I will not scrutinise -Ran's approach, mainly because it is irrelevant. I think it was King Dumb who said that although presentation is crucial in real life, it can be excused in an online environment. -Ran shows concern for MM8BDM, regardless of intention or method, and I respect that.

The following may be slightly irrelevant, but a thought occurred to me after reading King Dumb's post in the State of the Servers topic concerning disinterest in the community. I will state my interest and activity in the community; I know this topic is not about individual stories, but I will attempt to draw a discussion of a wider portion of the community from it.

It is likely that I contribute to MM8BDM more than I play it. No matter how often I play MM8BDM, I still regularly open up Slade and Doom Builder 2 for mapping purposes. Perhaps it will reach the point where I grow disinterested in playing the game, but continue mapping because it is my hobby (or I don't know any better). But as a developer, I believe that my direct contributions to the game allow me to, by extension, contribute to the community positively. I admit, things will not remain this way; I am already close to finishing my mapping obligations for MM8BDM v4a, and as such, subsequent contributions will only be for external mods (at least until I am needed for another official expansion). But even then, as long as I can provide some variety in servers with my contributions, and it does not go unplayed, I believe I will still contribute positively.

From this, let's define two stances in this community from this: internal and external modders. Internal modders are developers. Simply, as long as a developer creates content for the game (and it does not detract from it), it is a positive contribution. It is true that there can be a disconnect between developers and the game. However, I do not believe such a disconnect is an issue as long it does not alter a person's judgement. External modders covers everything beyond internal modders. Even external mods can contribute to the community positively. Roboenza, Rage Roboenza, Classes and Saxton Hale: yes, the community is guilty of falling into a rut by over-playing each one, but there was a period where each one was the 'next big thing'.

I know this is a gross oversimplification, but one solution to the community's stagnancy is for the next 'next big thing' to occur. Much easier said than done, yes, but I say this to emphasis that the power to 'save the community from the oppression of Saxton Hale and/or Classes' as one might put it is in the power of any modder's hands. If you can identify with me, and contribute to MM8BDM more than you play it, you can still positively contribute to the community as long as your mods do not go unplayed or unreleased.

As for your opinion, Shade, I appreciate your story, and your view. We could consider the "Next Big Thing" as a way to break the stagnancy. We could possibly create/edit a new/pre-existing game-type and make it into something that can be welcomed and accepted by our uninitiated, and by our more experienced. It's somewhat like my second plan, now that I think of it.

How we'll proceed with such an undertaking would need manpower and talents far beyond my own. But it's up there with my plan of also taking people by the hand and helping them learn to like and accept other game-types and modes, rather than pigeonholing to just one.

[Balrog]

All right, this became a clusterfuck faster than I expected. From that fact alone I expect that this won't be any more meaningful than the previous, what, three threads on this topic?

First of all, Ran, Skype doesn't download the logs for conversations you join from before your join. So that URI doesn't help anyone. Second, it sounds like you did the online equivalent of a Jehovah's Witness pulling the fire alarm, giving a conversion speech after everyone's at the evacuation point, then acting surprised when the mob gets angry; not the best persuasion technique, that. Third, calling the people you're trying to work with jaded, selfish assholes is about the worst possible way to get what you want. Fourth, you seem to be hiding behind "we" an awful lot as if you're trying to shift any responsibility for this thread to the aforementioned Skype chat. Looking at these factors in combination makes it very difficult for me to take you seriously.

Re: the "we need the next big thing to attract both the regulars and the newbies" people: We have the next big thing already. It's called Saxton Hale, and look where that got us. I've surmised that Saxton Hale is much like Brutal Doom, in that is mediocre and has a playerbase that consists primarily of idiots and children who are barely aware that the game it's based on exists as a distinct entity with its own community. (One thing Saxton Hale has over Brutal Doom, however, is that it's been made by a line of well-meaning individuals, while Brutal Doom is made by Sergeant_Mark_IV, a racist internet tough guy who encourages depressed individuals to kill themselves and can be charitably described as a human shit stain.) This is what the Doom community thinks of Brutal Doom, for reference:

(click to show/hide)

>watches Brutal Doom video on youtube

OMG YES SO FUCKING BROOTUL, I WANT TO SMASH A MONSTER'S HEAD IN AND THEN FLIP HIS BODY OFF AND SAY "FUCK YOURSELF!" JEJEJEJE SO BRUTAL MUST DOWNLOAD

>"requires Zandronum"

WHAT THE FUCK IS ZANDRONUM?? I DON'T WANT TO PLAY ZANDRONUM I WANT TO PLAY BRUTAL DOOM!!!

>"Zandronum is a source port"

SOURCE? FUCK THAT I DON'T WANT TO PLAY HALF LIFE 2 I WANT TO PLAY BRUTAL DOOM!!!

UGHHHH FUCK THIS I'LL JUST SEE IF THERE'S A TORRENT FOR IT

>downloads
>gets virus
>natural selection

The Doom community tolerates Brutal Doom because there is a moderately large, stable community that drowns out the noise. MM8BDM... does not have a large and stable community to drown out the noise.

How we'll proceed with such an undertaking would need manpower and talents far beyond my own. But it's up there with my plan of also taking people by the hand and helping them learn to like and accept other game-types and modes, rather than pigeonholing to just one.

Pretty sure we tried that already and it failed miserably. See above.

You want to keep MM8BDM from dying? You need to evangelize and bring in people from other communities who aren't epic morons. But if we did that right now I suspect they'd be driven away by Saxton Hale people. Obvious response: get rid of the Saxton Hale people. (Yes, this is rather dickish, but more diplomatic solutions have failed, so it's "no more Mr. Nice Guy" time in my opinion.)

(Incredibly unrealistic, most likely) ideas for doing so:

Install a wordfilter plugin on the forum backend. Replace "Saxton Hale" and similar with something confounding like "My hovercraft is full of eels!" to screen out people who just Google "free saxton hale game".
Petition Jenova to remove all Saxton Hale wads from BEST-EVER, as it poses a clear and present danger to the survival and growth of MM8BDM. Drastically increases the intelligence barrier for hosting and playing Saxton Hale, with the bonus of reminding people trying to play it that the forums exist. (If you want to do this, please don't just drop into the IRC chat and bug Jenova about it. I can draft an open letter that will actually briefly argue a thesis instead of just saying "We don't like these people, make them go away.")

Finally, it would help if people would watch what they say on Skype, as that's also driving people away, as is plainly obvious from the absence thread. I mean, seriously, learn some fucking tone control. Just look at the rest of this post; I may be blunt, I may be crass, but I do my damnedest to be coherent and approachable when trying to make a point and in conversations where it's obvious that Important Things are on the line.

[*Alice]

Or maybe people shouldn't be stuck-up jerks over their opinions ... oh wait, I'm often guilty of that, too.

Well, I, for one, don't care. I have the Skype contacts of the people in this place whom I would consider something along the lines of being close friends. There is nothing on the line for me, nor for the other people who don't create mods or participate in the creation of v4.

And Balrog, your comment was anything but constructive. All it contained was destructive criticism towards Ran and two entirely nonsensical suggestions about how to fix a problem that does not even exist. And you insulted a rather large number of people. For example: not being able to host does not mean being dumb, there are more than enough other factors.

You want to keep MM8BDM from dying? You need to evangelize and bring in people from other communities who aren't epic morons. But if we did that right now I suspect they'd be driven away by Saxton Hale people. Obvious response: get rid of the Saxton Hale people. (Yes, this is rather dickish, but more diplomatic solutions have failed, so it's "no more Mr. Nice Guy" time in my opinion.)

Do you even realize what this paragraph says about you?
Small hint: It's nothing good. At all.

[Orange juice :l]

Petition Jenova to remove all Saxton Hale wads from BEST-EVER, as it poses a clear and present danger to the survival and growth of MM8BDM. Drastically increases the intelligence barrier for hosting and playing Saxton Hale, with the bonus of reminding people trying to play it that the forums exist. (If you want to do this, please don't just drop into the IRC chat and bug Jenova about it. I can draft an open letter that will actually briefly argue a thesis instead of just saying "We don't like these people, make them go away.")

IIRC, Jenova said something along the lines of "If we were banning wads/combinations of wads from Best-Ever for being cancerous, you wouldn't be playing MM8BDM on Best-Ever" in response to classton hale once, so good luck with that one  

And Balrog, your comment was anything but constructive.

Not gonna lie, this whole conversation didn't have any base to hold any sort of construction from the start. This thread probably has 24 hours to live at most. And constructive or not, he's right, and he raises a point that effectively undermines the goal of the topic. It's not being a jackass, it's being realistic.

[Balrog]

Or maybe people shouldn't be stuck-up jerks over their opinions ... oh wait, I'm often guilty of that, too.

Well, I, for one, don't care. I have the Skype contacts of the people in this place whom I would consider something along the lines of being close friends. There is nothing on the line for me, nor for the other people who don't create mods or participate in the creation of v4.

And Balrog, your comment was anything but constructive. All it contained was destructive criticism towards Ran and two entirely nonsensical suggestions about how to fix a problem that does not even exist. And you insulted a rather large number of people. For example: not being able to host does not mean being dumb, there are more than enough other factors.

You want to keep MM8BDM from dying? You need to evangelize and bring in people from other communities who aren't epic morons. But if we did that right now I suspect they'd be driven away by Saxton Hale people. Obvious response: get rid of the Saxton Hale people. (Yes, this is rather dickish, but more diplomatic solutions have failed, so it's "no more Mr. Nice Guy" time in my opinion.)

Do you even realize what this paragraph says about you?
Small hint: It's nothing good. At all.

Sorry about that. Kind of in "mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore" mode at this point. I'm also rather cynical on this subject because of prior experience with SRB2. And Saxton dominating not being a problem is highly debatable; it's not illogical to conclude that a large number of people playing one mod you may not like with no alternatives is going to alienate people.

Petition Jenova to remove all Saxton Hale wads from BEST-EVER, as it poses a clear and present danger to the survival and growth of MM8BDM. Drastically increases the intelligence barrier for hosting and playing Saxton Hale, with the bonus of reminding people trying to play it that the forums exist. (If you want to do this, please don't just drop into the IRC chat and bug Jenova about it. I can draft an open letter that will actually briefly argue a thesis instead of just saying "We don't like these people, make them go away.")

IIRC, Jenova said something along the lines of "If we were banning wads/combinations of wads from Best-Ever for being cancerous, you wouldn't be playing MM8BDM on Best-Ever" in response to classton hale once, so good luck with that one  

And Balrog, your comment was anything but constructive.

Not gonna lie, this whole conversation didn't have any base to hold any sort of construction from the start. This thread probably has 24 hours to live at most. And constructive or not, he's right, and he raises a point that effectively undermines the goal of the topic. It's not being a jackass, it's being realistic.

Regarding the Jenova thing, that's why I mentioned drafting a formal letter: to establish a case for a genuine need as opposed to simple butthurt. (In case you don't remember, I was the one who had a debate about it at Tsuki's insistence.)

Also, it would be nice if you could elaborate beyond "he's right", OJ. Having an insight into your opinion would increase the chances of this thread not hitting the barf bag.

[-RanRan]

I'm... not even going to attempt pointing out what's wrong with you attacking me directly, Balrog.

Mostly because you arrived at a possible solution. Partly because I just finished pointing it out when OJ did it, and I don't have the patience to do it again.
Going to go write it down and add it to the other two.

As for what's going on between the three of you, stop it please. I already asked OJ to stop, and actually begin posing ideas, but he hasn't yet.
Alice, you haven't either.

This bureaucratic semantics debate needs to stop, and soon. We're here to decide what would be best to do, and then do it. Not continue attempting to push this thread into the cycle of the "Political Threads". It's not a shouting match and pissing contest; It's a debate and a discussion to solve our problems.

*Edit*
Come on, all of you are better than this. I'm more disappointed at specific people more than others, but that's just one the many things.