MM8BDM Community Disscussion: Problems and Solutions

[-RanRan]

After the first 55 minutes of what I can only describe as "the absolute worst" in our community's player base, we were able to actually make headway with the discussion.

Basically, here's what we were able to work out.


Our community is dying. And for three reasons.

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish,  jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.


Now that we understand those are the underlying problems causing our death, we need to think of ways to stop it from happening, and then we need to act on them.


I know it won't stop them from doing it, but for those you who decided to be fully against either because of me backing it, disagreeing with my opinions, views, and ideas of how to solve the problem, I beg you not post here for the sake of bringing it down.

If you find yourself compelled to post negatively, please let it be constructive.

[Balrog]

Placeholder for a real response on a real keyboard tomorrow Never mind, having a reply up here would just be too confusing at this point.

BTW where was this Ran?

[Hallan Parva]

in a Skype group that (very quickly) went to shit

(click to show/hide)

[-RanRan]

It was here, in this call: http://skype:?chat&blob=ySJqQTM4qCKZ4hVI41F-E3794s70lM41MqyJ_Yrgy72VUyfN9EvwPE7-47t2kKn-Oa4ZuLwxTkwRcbKpZviwUq3wp_gzJ3h4v0URk7I6roTinTm5lj7a3fviR005c5IgoZqDcfTnOhG1e74Qw9YU5zFrIttMfIY82eWShfskK-BD03Y8K1sA7GlPBiop5SFlsFkXYVhZw9LRG4fPbWHvOIYPxPc-LE_X5aQNUB3w

Yes, that is the URI [Not URL] Link.

Yes, it will take you to the chat. Right now, people ahve bee having problems, because the trolls and the non-willing spammed it with nonexistent users and trolled endlessly, until we started kicking people.

Also, Smash: That is the exact kind of lack of seriousness that will kill us. Please, if you don't have something to offer to actually *help* discuss, and talk about the issues, I beg that you don't post.

[Thunderono]

Our community is dying. And for three reasons.

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish,  jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.

...Is there an actual issue, or do you just feel like insulting everyone?

[-RanRan]

Our community is dying. And for three reasons.

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish,  jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.

...Is there an actual issue, or do you just feel like insulting everyone?

I'm not insulting everyone. Those, in the quotes are the exact things everyone in the call and chat agreed were the root problems. If you don't believe me, I'll happily copypasta to you every conversation main and on the side.

I warn you though, many of the side conversation are basically " Lol -Ran, trying to save 8BDM". Also, i'm going to assume that by you asking me this question, that you feel there isn't an issue that is occuring?

Also, you forgot the preface that explained that was the collective census on the matter. They are not my sole feelings.

[Thunderono]

That is correct, I don't feel like there's an issue.  I see things like these pop up all the time, and it amazes me.
My reasoning for this being, if Cutstuff is truly going to shit, how do we still have a thriving community that continues to maintain a friendly relationship with each other?
I might be missing something, but I haven't noticed an issue.  Why fix what isn't broken?  If you want to play a gamemode, actually play the gamemode.  Complaining about the popular mode won't accomplish a thing.

[Orange juice :l]

Now that we understand those are the underlying problems causing our death, we need to think of ways to stop it from happening, and then we need to act on them.

You have no basis to fix the issue at hand. You're saying CS is dead because of toxic players. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant- people aren't going to hand you the answer if you throw this kind of accusation out into the public forum.

I warn you though, many of the side conversation are basically " Lol -Ran, trying to save 8BDM"

No, the issue at hand was that you had literally everyone invite everyone and then were amazed when the chat devolved into a shitposting spree. Then, you were surprised when people left the chat after you muted all of them. People are not going to engage in discourse when they're gagged, nor would they want to be in a chat that amounts to you preaching about why the community is full of toxic players.

My reasoning for this being, if Cutstuff is truly going to shit, how do we still have a thriving community that continues to maintain a friendly relationship with each other?

Ok, no. While this thread may not have a basis, Cutstuff is anything BUT thriving. And if you're talking about the Skype chats, I would rather try to have a friendly discussion on /b/. At least there, people don't recognize each other so that they can hold a grudge.

[-RanRan]

That is correct, I don't feel like there's an issue.  I see things like these pop up all the time, and it amazes me.
My reasoning for this being, if Cutstuff is truly going to shit, how do we still have a thriving community that continues to maintain a friendly relationship with each other?
I might be missing something, but I haven't noticed an issue.  Why fix what isn't broken?  If you want to play a gamemode, actually play the gamemode.  Complaining about the popular mode won't accomplish a thing.

I have. Those who are with me on the matter have.

But right now, I can see you feel that the servers being full of people means we're "alive", and not noticing the actual "servers" are the same servers, rather than multiple servers of different modes, mods, and players.

The same server of the same mode being played over and over doesn't equal a thriving community. It means it's stagnant. And those are individual people who willing choose to go there, day in and day out, never once thinking to do something else.

And, because I physically did the follow myself, i know this is true:

When people go there and tell them or persuade them to do another mode, they refuse to. Either quoting that the mode in question in more fun -- which is a fair argument and cannot be refuted -- or refuse to leave because they wish to be in a mode they are familiar with, because adapting to something they don't know is too hard -- which is also a fair argument.

Yet, that has been the excuse one too many times. Our players are bored of our base game -- not the mods, not the skins, maps and other things we make which can all solve the issue -- but they are bored with the base game itself, the core of 8BDM.


The problem is the community has to recognize it as a problem, and act upon it. One man -- or in this case one Ran -- will not be enough. Everyone has to be on the same page in order for this to be given and taken as seriously as it is.

[-RanRan]

Now that we understand those are the underlying problems causing our death, we need to think of ways to stop it from happening, and then we need to act on them.

You have no basis to fix the issue at hand. You're saying CS is dead because of toxic players. Whether or not this is true is irrelevant- people aren't going to hand you the answer if you throw this kind of accusation out into the public forum.

I warn you though, many of the side conversation are basically " Lol -Ran, trying to save 8BDM"

No, the issue at hand was that you had literally everyone invite everyone and then were amazed when the chat devolved into a shitposting spree. Then, you were surprised when people left the chat after you muted all of them. People are not going to engage in discourse when they're gagged, nor would they want to be in a chat that amounts to you preaching about why the community is full of toxic players.

My reasoning for this being, if Cutstuff is truly going to shit, how do we still have a thriving community that continues to maintain a friendly relationship with each other?

Ok, no. While this thread may not have a basis, Cutstuff is anything BUT thriving. And if you're talking about the Skype chats, I would rather try to have a friendly discussion on /b/. At least there, people don't recognize each other so that they can hold a grudge.

OJ, I don't remember you being there, but from your words, I see you were.

Also, I never said "toxic players are toxic so this is why". That was the public opinion agreed upon by those actually willing to discuss it. Was my opinion involved in it? yes, it was. However, I was not the sole person who agreed on this.


As for... "gagging" them. I tried not to do anything to mute it. Sadly, that was and option tossed out the window and down stairs as people did everything possible to make it derail. Which would go as far as being a physical representation of #1. Even after I attempted banning and kicking those who weren't contributing, it continued.

And it began derailing FAAAAAAAAAAR beyond that. Also, they knew how the set up would be, because I explained it to them. Just I did the ones who were willing to be moderators. And to everyone else once everyone was there.

If you want to call me a liar, I have chat logs to give you. All 15 of them. I have nothing to fabricate or hide.

Also, here's what you didn't know:

Permissions were set up so that people could be able to listen and talk to other in a debate and discussion. Sadly, the bad apples saw fit to go all out to troll.

Every time the chat permission for the users that weren't mods were set, I explained why it was, and asked the chat to behave. And as my just rewards for asking people who seem to be deadset on doing the opposite, continued to troll.

I was never surprised by it.

If anything, I was slightly overwhelmed trying to stop the lag from crashing people's computers, because of all of the fake, excess people being added.
To the point that one of the Masters in the chat couldn't take it anymore, and left. And that was before it got worse.

Also, you're attacking me. You're not actually discussing the issue or question being posed, OJ.

But, after what I've heard, you seem to care more than you did in the past. So, I'm willing to take your accusations and finger-pointing, in hopes that you can contribute. I would like to direct your attention to this:

I know it won't stop them from doing it, but for those you who decided to be fully against either because of me backing it, disagreeing with my opinions, views, and ideas of how to solve the problem, I beg you not post here for the sake of bringing it down.

If you find yourself compelled to post negatively, please let it be constructive.

[Dr. Freeman]

Woo boy let's not talk about the skype chat and how that adventure was.

But onto actual things.

I agree that people's behavior is absolutely atrocious across the board. People insulting each other left and right, holding grudges etc. If I had time I could probably bring up a crap ton of examples, but this isn't the point fingers and all that crap so that doesn't matter.
A solution however, is next to impossible. You can not make people mature up and actually not hold each other at gun point, it simply isn't something that can easily be done without shoving tasers down their throats or something.

However, your argument regarding people playing mods means the game is dead is absolutely crazy. In fact, it suggests the opposite. People are building and expanding upon the main game. When a new version is released it has its month in the spotlight, but it is reasonably hard to expect Vanilla Deathmatch servers to be fully populated at all times, people get bored. And heck, there are still times when they're played. About a week ago me and a group of people played on Vanilla Deathmatch for a bit and that was nifty. Mods shouldn't be treated as "IT'S NOT THE CORE GAME SO IT DOESN'T COUNT" for if that was true, people would play TF2 for their Saxton Hale fix instead of 8BDM.

That said, Saxton being the only mod populated is stupid and dumb, but it's far from killing the community.

[Orange juice :l]

Also, you're attacking me.

I'm not attacking you in the slightest. You may be interpreting that post as such in order to dismiss me, but I'm afraid that's simply not true. What IS true is that I was attacking the issue instead of "discussing it." Take that how you will, but it's entirely justified when the point being made is outright preposterous. But if I truly must...

My first quote simply states that you have no organized plan to rectify the issue. You're simply calling people "Jaded", "Selfish", and "Trolls". Especially odd that you're attacking these players, seeing that the second quote again pulls the "I'm being attacked" card. If you're going to try and make change, PLEASE HAVE A BASIS FOR YOUR ARGUMENTS. Otherwise, you're only going to perpetuate the "derailing and locking" that you're so concerned about. You can't come out and say something controversial with no basis and dismiss everyone as a troll or flamer and tell them not to post. That's not how intelligent discourse works, I'm sorry.

[Kapus]

If you find yourself compelled to post negatively, please let it be constructive.

OJ's post was constructive. He simply told you what was wrong with your post and ideas.

[Smunch]

I never really considered myself a "community member" around here, mainly since I don't post much or associate with too many people here.  All I do is play in servers I like, post in a few choice topics that I share interest in, and lurk various other topics simply to see what others have to say.  From what I've seen though throughout the time I've been on the down low I can gather a few things.

1. Cutstuff folk in general consist of the following very generalized categories:
Humans: Actual people with personalities, speak with full sentences and complete thoughts fairly often, much variety.  Can range from mature adult to 11 year old kid, but still treats a forum like they'd converse in real life.
Internet People: Have a personality, speak in fragments mostly, often post to insert jokes only; hybridizes with some Human traits and posts to ensure they aren't actually just a facade of a person
Shitposters: Might have a personality, speak mostly in response to others and do not often initiate thoughts, often unconstructive; hybridizes with some Internet People traits so they aren't entirely disliked/banned

A lot of people are mean here.

The generalized issues for each are the humans are busy with their real lives and thus don't have the time/effort to care enough about monitoring community details, the internet people are silly and treat discussion as a joke, and the shitposters are themselves. We can't change who people are though, can we now?

2.  The actual game
Vanilla is boring to most people.  Apparently.  I know I like vanilla a lot, and I know a lot of you like vanilla a lot.  Vanilla doesn't get played a lot.  Hosts that wish to accommodate for the vanilla problem often just host a vanilla deathmatch server.  As such, there are a lot of vanilla deathmatch servers.  I like vanilla LMS/TLMS/CTF/TDM too.  I know a lot of you like at least some of these vanilla games as well.  From this incessant babbling I see that
A.  Vanilla servers focus too much on deathmatch only
B.  Vanilla servers don't fill up very quickly and file out very quickly
How do we fix it?  A is up to the server hosts, and B is up to the collective individuals.

3.  The game that actually gets played
Damn there's a lot of mod files.  There is a lot of interesting shit to play.  Everybody loves it... kind of.  Popular game modes have entered many phases with the dawn of the ever popular roboenza, through classes (which hasn't finished that MM8 update, slowing its popularity), and to the current trend of endless Saxton Hale (with and without classes still).  Minor games are also kicking around with decent popularity, like the silly LMS games and Bot Apocalypse.  Endless map packs are around too.  This all really isn't an issue, right?  Well... depends on your perspective really.  There of course is inherent good from mods, but the present cons to such mods are
-Vanilla is considered stale (-Ran has this right on the money)
-New users get lost in the game modes that build off vanilla without yet having a vanilla server be popular for them to try out the base game against human opponents
-New and Old users get lost in the clutter to obtain mod files (when wadseeker fails)
-The most popular mod at the moment might be one you dislike (everyone can tolerate vanilla, I hope)

4. New users
This I just have no idea on.  How often do new users join and stick around? I just am completely unobservant of this one.  All I know is our current user base is probably not very receptive of them, and they are probably turned off by how rude and jaded our users act.


I'm not a big cutstuff community aficionado or content creator extraordinaire but I guess that's what I have to say.  I don't really have solutions, just some biased observations.  
I miss TLMS servers

[Jman]

My reaction to everything that happened today:

Believe me, I'm not trying to be a douche and all, and I'm sorry for spamming the chat earlier, but really, this came out of thin air. We already had a pointless discussion like this earlier with the "state of the servers" topic.

#1. Our community majority player-base is made up of selfish,  jaded users, who will resist change of any kind. They refuse to take anything seriously, and seek to discredit anyone and anything that shows direct opposition to what they believe is correct.

Excuse me? I can name a few people like that, but majority is an incredible overstatement. And what "change" are you talking about? Nothing has changed here other than the fact that Saxton Hale is hosted and played much more frequently than many other game modes. Nothing can really change that, sadly.

#2 Our game-modes, and the choices and popularization of said choices of servers hosted with them, have gotten to the point it has made the base-game itself stale and uninteresting.

This topic comes up every year. I know I bash on saxton a lot, but I've recently found out how fun it is to invite my friends from Tengu's skype group to come play vanilla DM or LMS games.

#3 The people who know that it's a problem refuse to do anything to change it, because they believe it is inevitable, and those who don't know can't figure out why it is, because every-time we try to discuss it, people destroy the debate and discussion before it can even start.

Welcome to the internet. People have differing opinions, and they will argue as such. Hell, we're doing it right now. To be honest, it's really making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Also, this doesn't happen EVERY time. While you were off in nowhere-land, we had a discussion not too long ago about this exact same thing. The discussion WAS a serious debate, and wasn't killed off by anything (mostly because it wasn't a skype call that people were forced into late in the day, under the label EMERGENCY)

Edit: Also, even with this topic, just as oj said, what exactly is the basis of your argument here? You're saying what's wrong with the community, but what on earth do you want us to do about it? All I see here are common complaints. "Saxton is killing the community", "The community is full of trolls", yadda yadda yadda.