[Suggestion] Junk Shield Counters and Notes

[rtist]

During some duels, I've encountered players on certain maps where they use junk shield exclusively. This normally wouldn't be a problem in of itself, but a few of the maps that do have junk shield on them lack an appropriate electrical counter. Where there is no counter, junk shield gets abused.

This happens in deathmatch, too. A player will use the shield to limit the damage they take, and escape to get extra life. A player who uses junk shield in this way is harder to kill, especially when there's no counter available.

I suggest that there should be at least one electrical-type weapon on every map where Junk Shield is present to discourage Junk's abuse. I don't suggest changing the weapon, since it's truer to the mm7 weapon, but a counter should be available on every map to prevent Junk from being used nearly exclusively.

I also suggest that, when Junk Shield is used, that the player's range of motion be more limited. After all, that Junk is heavy; it should hinder movement.
NOTE: I'm striking my weighted suggestion, as it would make Junk Shield much more difficult to use; it should be as easy as any other weapon to use.

2nd NOTE: Maps with Junk Shield are:
MM7BUR
MM4DUS
MM5GRA
MM8GRE
MM3HAR
MM2HEA
MM1ICE
MM7JUN
MM2MET
MM7SPR
MM7DW1

[Hallan Parva]

A counter should be available on every map to prevent Junk from being used nearly exclusively.

I sort of agree but this would be "Top Spin / Fire Weapon / Leaf Shield" all fucking over again and WEAPON TRIANGLES IN A SHOOTER IS BAD

I also suggest that, when Junk Shield is used, that the player's range of motion be more limited. After all, that Junk is heavy; it should hinder movement.

hey you're a terrible person

[rtist]

A counter should be available on every map to prevent Junk from being used nearly exclusively.

I sort of agree but this would be "Top Spin / Fire Weapon / Leaf Shield" all fucking over again and WEAPON TRIANGLES IN A SHOOTER IS BAD

What does top spin have to do with any of this? I'm just talking about a counter to a single device. I don't see your point here, especially since all lightning weapons have some kind of weakness that makes their widespread use difficult (they eat up too much weapon energy, they have limited range, etc.).

I also suggest that, when Junk Shield is used, that the player's range of motion be more limited. After all, that Junk is heavy; it should hinder movement.

hey you're a terrible person

I'm terrible because I make suggestions?

[Hallan Parva]

A counter should be available on every map to prevent Junk from being used nearly exclusively.

I sort of agree but this would be "Top Spin / Fire Weapon / Leaf Shield" all fucking over again and WEAPON TRIANGLES IN A SHOOTER IS BAD

What does top spin have to do with any of this? I'm just talking about a counter to a single device.

Leaf Shield is a thing. It blocks all weaponry except for fire, busters, and sharp cutting attacks.

Often, duels on a map that contains Leaf Shield will devolve into the use of only three fucking weapons on the entire map, and although Top Spin and Leaf Shield really don't share maps anymore, the strategy was coined as "Top Spin / Fire Storm / Leaf Shield" due to observing older duels where this weapon triad was somewhat more prevalent. Basically, Duelist A and Duelist B would use the strongest weapon on a map, such as Top Spin, Ballade Cracker, or Silver Tomahawk. One of the players would start losing (let's say it's Duelist A) and want to retreat for health, so Duelist A engages Leaf Shield to make their getaway. Duelist B then switches to Fire Storm to break down the Leaf Shield, right? Duelist A, anticipating this change, switches back to their Top Spin / Silver Tomahawk due to the higher DPS, and seeing that their face is being ripped apart, Duelist B then becomes the one using Leaf Shield.

See the problem? Even though Fire Storm is a "counter to a single device" it still encouraged this growth of a fucking weapons triangle in duels that ended up stalling and prolonging matches beyond recognition. Adding a counter to Junk Shield in every map it's in would encourage the same fucking thing. Get shot at, pop Junk Shield, get shot at by lightning, counter them with superior DPS, opponent pops Junk Shield, counter them with lightning, get shot at, pop Junk Shield... NO. Fuck that, I've been irritated by Weapon Triangle Shield for two and a half years.

Also, Junk Shield isn't perfect. You can't attack and it isn't a guaranteed "null damage" like Leaf Shield is. Actually, even though they don't pierce the armor, rapid-fire weapons like Yamato Spear, Needle Cannon, and Bass Buster are awesome for ripping down Junk Shield as their lower damage per hit results in a higher percentage of their damage being dealt to the player instead of the armor.

Which brings me to the other point...

I also suggest that, when Junk Shield is used, that the player's range of motion be more limited. After all, that Junk is heavy; it should hinder movement.

hey you're a terrible person

I'm terrible because I make suggestions?

No, you're terrible for trying to reduce the effectiveness of a fucking utility weapon. Junk Shield is basically Leaf Shield Remixed and was designed for defensive purposes. Sure, it has a short-range AoE like Star Crash, but each hit weakens your armor. Also, if you're standing next to a guy to hug them to death, they're probably shooting you... which weakens your armor. Junk Shield is meant for retreats and sneaking around, and when you're done you switch to something else so you can actually kill something.

I still don't like how lightning attacks pierce armor since Junk Shield is so damn situational in the first place when compared to Leaf Shield (can't pop it in crowds because you'll get raped, can't walk into a firing enemy with it, etc), but that's a vanilla problem and I won't get into that. Nevertheless, it's still a thing. Not only are you trying to nerf Junk Shield by constantly handing out a counter weapon that basically says "hey your Junk Shield is a piece of shit", you're also trying to nerf Junk Shield with a slowdown that basically says "hey even if I don't have lighting I can still shoot your sorry ass down in a flash because you move so fucking slow". Heck, even in non-combat situations the slowdown would feel like "hey why did I even use this piece of crap RUNNING AWAY WOULD BE FASTER AND THEREFORE MORE EFFECTIVE".

Messatsu has a philosophy he likes to share in dev chats: "Never balance around duel mode. Duelists are idiots who like breaking deathmatch and last man standing simply to preserve 1v1 tactics." At first I thought maybe this statement was a little harsh, but you know what? After seeing this, I totally agree.

IT'S JUNK SHIELD. IT'S ONE WEAPON. AND IT ISN'T EVEN THAT GOOD AT SHIELDING THINGS.

Having an armor boost be reduced to complete bullshit in large multiplayer modes (which, I remind you, is not only what the entire game is based around but is also about 90% of what the community plays) just to be slightly more balanced in a 1v1 game mode is probably the worst idea I have ever heard. Yes. Even worse than "remove health from duel".

[Orange juice :l]

Alright Smash, I'm sure you like using Junk shield personally and all, but let's see here...

Often, duels on a map that contains Leaf Shield will devolve into the use of only three fucking weapons on the entire map...

Alright then, let's only use one because it has no counters. Sound better?

See the problem? Even though Fire Storm is a "counter to a single device" it still encouraged this growth of a fucking weapons triangle in duels that ended up stalling and prolonging matches beyond recognition. Adding a counter to Junk Shield in every map it's in would encourage the same fucking thing. Get shot at, pop Junk Shield, get shot at by lightning, counter them with superior DPS, opponent pops Junk Shield, counter them with lightning, get shot at, pop Junk Shield... NO. Fuck that, I've been irritated by Weapon Triangle Shield for two and a half years.

Would a Junk Shield effectiveness reduction be in order then? Weapon triangles are always going to exist because two weapons are NOT going to be on even footing in all situations. One will always be better depending on the time and place, and issues arise when one is more effective in drastically more times and places. Case in point, Junk Shield when left unchecked by a counter.

Also, Junk Shield isn't perfect. You can't attack and it isn't a guaranteed "null damage" like Leaf Shield is. Actually, even though they don't pierce the armor, rapid-fire weapons like Yamato Spear, Needle Cannon, and Bass Buster are awesome for ripping down Junk Shield as their lower damage per hit results in a higher percentage of their damage being dealt to the player instead of the armor.

MM3HAR has Junk Shield, Hard Knuckle, Power Stone, Mega Ball, Proto Buster, Gemini Laser, and Pharoah Shot.
Very fast weapon speed there.

I still don't like how lightning attacks pierce armor since Junk Shield is so damn situational in the first place when compared to Leaf Shield (can't pop it in crowds because you'll get raped, can't walk into a firing enemy with it, etc), but that's a vanilla problem and I won't get into that.

What? Leaf Shield only fails to block non-fire/cutter/buster weapons if you're touching the other guy. Would you enjoy a map where the only weapon that can pierce leaf shield is your buster? Junk doesn't even get countered by buster. Don't bother trying to wear it down, he'll just recast it instantly. Before it completely breaks, if he feels like it.

Nevertheless, it's still a thing. Not only are you trying to nerf Junk Shield by constantly handing out a counter weapon that basically says "hey your Junk Shield is a piece of shit"

Top Spin has counters. Leaf Shield has counters. Rolling Cutter has counters. Everything has counters, everything except Junk Shield.

you're also trying to nerf Junk Shield with a slowdown that basically says "hey even if I don't have lighting I can still shoot your sorry ass down in a flash because you move so fucking slow".

Have you SEEN how much damage Junk can do with its hug? Combined with the lack of passive ammo usage, damage reduction, and ability to instantly get a fresh coat, it's a 300% stronger Star Crash.

Heck, even in non-combat situations the slowdown would feel like "hey why did I even use this piece of crap RUNNING AWAY WOULD BE FASTER AND THEREFORE MORE EFFECTIVE".

Because now that Junk Shield has an offense component, it's not exactly balanced to make it a free ticket to escape. Want to attack? Junk Shield! Want to escape? Junk Shield! Want to close the gap between you and your opponent? Junk Shield! Wait...

Messatsu has a philosophy he likes to share in dev chats: "Never balance around duel mode. Duelists are idiots who like breaking deathmatch and last man standing simply to preserve 1v1 tactics." At first I thought maybe this statement was a little harsh, but you know what? After seeing this, I totally agree.

How would placing an electric weapon on maps ruin LMS? Not only that, but why is balance an issue in Deathmatch, the mode made to be as chaotic and spammy as possible? Besides, there's plenty of people with the philosophy that Deathmatch is a mode for idiots who like running around and mindlessly shooting people and insulting those who don't play just as they do.

IT'S JUNK SHIELD. IT'S ONE WEAPON. AND IT ISN'T EVEN THAT GOOD AT SHIELDING THINGS.

You can survive two hard knuckles with junk shield.

And immediately recast it to survive two more.

Having an armor boost be reduced to complete bullshit in large multiplayer modes (which, I remind you, is not only what the entire game is based around but is also about 90% of what the community plays) just to be slightly more balanced in a 1v1 game mode is probably the worst idea I have ever heard.

Oh. Sorry, forgot this was the game where competition is discouraged. I suppose those people in the duel league will be leaving now.

By the way, there's 27 people in the duel league at the moment. If you can show me 270 other active Deathmatch players, I'll be very impressed.

[Ivory]

So there is a 1:10 ratio for duelist opinions vs deathmatch opinions? Sounds legit to me.

[Orange juice :l]

It's not a matter of how many, it's the fact that it'd be a simple fix to add, say, Thunder Bolt or even Needle Cannon on MM3HAR. Replace Gemini Laser or Bubble Lead perhaps. It'd certainly help Duel. Would it ruin Deathmatch?

[Galactan]

I still don't like how lightning attacks pierce armor since Junk Shield is so damn situational in the first place when compared to Leaf Shield

Junk Shield is so damn situational in the first place when compared to Leaf Shield

Junk Shield is so damn situational

Comrade!  You are quite confused!

This balance needs to happen.  Junk Shield is essentially Leaf Shield with hugging capabilities and a few small gaps.  Since the update, I've seen it being used far more often with a lot more damage dealing AND damage nullification.  It's suddenly a Swiss army knife unless someone has an electric or rapid fire attack.  It's not situational at all.

[Tengu]

Is it really that hard for people to get that its a nice hugger that also gives protection

[rtist]

Is it really that hard for people to get that its a nice hugger that also gives protection

I can understand it; I don't understand why there's no counter for it to prevent its abuse.

Even mirror buster has counters. Snakes can still damage the player in spite of the mirror. Gemini is adjusted, too. Leaf shield, where it is present, has counters available (I could be wrong, but I don't recall any maps in which Leaf Shield can't be countered; lots of fire/cutting weapons).

It stands to reason that there should be a counter for junk shield on maps in which it is present.

Question: does a charged atomic fire shot kill a person who is using junk shield? If so, this might be an alternative.

[Ivory]

Do you not listen? Electric weapons pierce it, rapid fire weapons make short work of it. Stop saying it can't be countered. At most, the weapon sets on maps that feature Junk Shield need to be looked at, but the weapon itself is not the problem.

[rtist]

Do you not listen? Electric weapons pierce it, rapid fire weapons make short work of it. Stop saying it can't be countered. At most, the weapon sets on maps that feature Junk Shield need to be looked at, but the weapon itself is not the problem.

Dude, you're not listening to me. I know electric weapons pierce it and rapid weapons trump it; what I'm saying is there are maps like MM3HAR that lack both of those, making junk shield easy to abuse.

I don't mind junk shield (read my OP; I don't think Junk should be changed); what I do mind is the fact that there are some maps that lack the necessary tools to counter said shield.

[Knux]

Know what would be good? A list of the maps that have Junk Shield with no electric weapons/counters. That way, we can look at what weapons are in those maps already, and hopefully get something done about it. In fact, that probably should have been in the opening post.  

[CutmanMike]

Moving to pending, if anything at least a change has to happen for MM3HAR at some point.

[rtist]

Know what would be good? A list of the maps that have Junk Shield with no electric weapons/counters. That way, we can look at what weapons are in those maps already, and hopefully get something done about it. In fact, that probably should have been in the opening post.  

Good plan; I'll do this, but I'll post my findings here. Note that this is for the DM maps only and not for the CTF maps:

MM7BUR: lacks an electrical weapon, but has metal blade. That's a pretty quick weapon, so I dunno if anything else need be done here. Then again, this map is difficult to play in the first place, and may be in need of a makeover in general.

MM4DUS: has an electrical weapon of dubious value (spark shock). Also has super arm. Might need an adjustment.

MM5GRA: has an electrical weapon (thunder bolt) and a fast weapon (yamato spear); don't think any changes need be made.

MM8GRE: has an electrical weapon (thunder bolt); don't think any changes need to be made.

MM3HAR: no electrical weapon or fast weapon (changes pending per CutmanMike's discretion).

MM2HEA: no electrical or fast weapons, but has atomic fire, which can be a one-shot kill. Do changes need to be made?

MM1ICE: no electrical weapons (surprising since thunder beam is Iceman's weakness), but there is Needle Cannon. Also, Eddie is present here.

MM7JUN: has an electrical weapon (thunder bolt); don't think any changes need to be made.

MM2MET: has electrical weapons (thunder beam, thunder claw); no need for changes here.

MM7SPR: no electrical weapons, but there is metal blade and yamato spear; dunno if any changes need to be made.

MM7DW1: has an electrical weapon (thunder bolt); don't think any changes need to be made.