[Suggestion] Charge weapons auto-release

[Russel]

Here's my question.  Why is this even suggested in the first place? Are charge weapons on a whole unbalanced in such a way where this suggestion is necessary? Seems to me that most charge weapons have some sort of drawback (Low RoF, Charge noise, etc) where changes to damage or ammo consumption is a far more practical way to alter the weapons if they are deemed too powerful.

I posted the suggestion because it was a thought I've had for a long time and I felt it was worth discussing.
Not to mention, in the initial post, I stated directly why I thought the idea was worth looking into.

[Messatsu]

Charge weapons in this game seem to pack quite a bit of pressure behind them because of how much power they can have over your opponents. .

I just see this as "high risk, high reward".  That's why I asked my previous question. With a few exceptions, I don't really see charge weapons on a whole being out of balance with the rest of the weapons in the game.

[Orange juice :l]

It's not implied that charge weapons are overpowered in their own right, but there's currently no downside to always carry a charged shot around before an encounter (besides sound, which is a relatively weak caveat for something so strong as atomic fire or noise crush). These effects would only become serious over significant charge periods, nerfing the overused strategy of "carry charged shots everywhere" instead of charge weapons themselves.

[Ehibika]

But is the act of carrying a charge shot everywhere that upsetting to gameplay balance? it feels like we are trying to nullify a common strategy for the sake of it being a common strategy.

what would this add to the multiplayer environment? I don't know but I honestly thought that charging your weapon in preparation for a confrontation was a reasonable strategy, as opposed to trying to charge it while the opponent is steadily firing at you. if the goal is to keep charge weapons from becoming the most optimal choice in comparison to every other weapon and encourage the use of other weapons, then I feel we ought to be careful with this. nerf it just a little too hard and they'd be deemed too inefficient compared to non charge weapons.

[Orange juice :l]

It really isn't as significant to balance as many other issues, but having people running around flashing red and white is a tad dull. Making people mull over whether they should hold a charge and deal with the drawbacks or take a stealthier approach with, say, a melee weapon out (which I suggest you not do against someone always holding onto atomic fire, but I digress) would add a bit of depth to the game, even if it's not much.

[CutmanMike]

This hasn't been an issue for 4 full releases of MM8BDM, I'm not sure I understand why it suddenly needs to be changed if game balance isn't the concern. If it is just to make the game more interesting, I'm not sure making any of these changes would radically effect a deathmatch environment (which is the game's core mode) and just prove more annoying than anything.

[Bikdark]

I'm inclined to believe 90% of the people who are opposed to penalizing players for holding on to a charge too long have never played against Homing Sniper or Atomic Fire.

[Meme Man]

I feel we need something to punish people charging weapons for so long. People spam so much pharaoh shot in a map where it has it. Maybe ammo consumes itself for charging for too long

[DoomManFTW]

Though I like it the way it is originally,how about making it so after too long you "get tired" and the charging stops for 2 seconds and then you have to charge again,and this takes no ammo unless you release it yourself of course.

[MusashiAA]

In FPS games, overcharging usually implies some punishment after some time. There is no punishment for charging weapons in this game because there wasn't any in the original source to begin with.

You'd also have to think of the game mode the weapons were mainly designed for: a multiplayer deathmatch enviroment, where players easily, infinitely and rapidly respawn after death, with everyone having access to every weapon on the map. In such enviroment, charging weapons are not that much of a threat given both the option of countering with the same charging weapon, using a rapid fire, long range weapon to prevent getting caught up with meatshots, or dodging/blocking if possible. There are options to deal against charging weapons in the game mode they were designed for (and arguably in other game modes), so this sounds like a non-issue.

Messatsu already pointed this, but charge weapons also have implied general weaknesses by design: it makes players loud and visible, thus can be easily spotted and avoided/flanked. There is also the charge time it takes to achieve maximum damage, with delays after firing included, so the risk in missing shots is higher, which is also in accordance to the reward of higher damage. Hitbox size and ammo consumption is also a factor that must be taken into account, since the bigger the hitbox, the more likely you'll hit, and the less ammo you consume, the more room you have to miss shots. Given these base weaknesses, let's compare with the weapons that have been mentioned here:

(click to show/hide)

Atomic Fire: Absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, absurdly long charge time, very little afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, high ammo consumption.

Pharaoh Shot: Really high damage, silent charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, low ammo consumption.

Noise Crush: Really high damage, really loud charge noise, very little charge time, very little afterfire delay, big hitbox size, low ammo consumption.

Homing Sniper: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, really long charge time, 6 normal-sized homing hitboxes, high ammo consumption.

Proto Buster: Moderately high damage, moderately loud charge noise that becomes silent, very little charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately big hitbox size, no ammo consumption.

Super Adaptor: Normal damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, 1 normal-sized homing hitbox, no ammo consumption (cannot fire until projectile returns to player).

Laser Buster: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, multiple moderate-sized ripping hitboxes, no ammo consumption.

Arrow Buster: Moderately high to absurdly high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, 1 moderately-sized hitbox that splits into 6 normal-sized hitboxes, no ammo consumption.

Duo Fist: Really high damage, really loud charge noise, moderately long charge time, moderately long afterfire delay, moderately-sized hitbox, no ammo consumption.

So my comments:

In terms of damage, Atomic Fire is in its own league. Stupid 1HKO power balanced by a stupid long charge time, and a stupid loud charge noise. The closest thing to Atomic Fire in terms of power (god tier 2HKO, potentially 1HKOs) are Homing Sniper (which is highly dependant on homing mechanics, all shots must connect to deal close to 100 damage), Arrow Buster and Laser Buster (again, all shots must connect to pretty much instakill, potentially dealing more damage than Homing Sniper meatshot). Other charge weapons are within the 2HKO range, save for Super Adaptor, which deals a pretty underwhelming amount of damage for being pretty similar to other buster upgrades in other terms.

Charge noise award goes to Pharaoh Shot: a high tier 2HKO weapon, with as much power as Noise Crush and Duo Fist, without the sound penalty, and low consumption ammo. Honestly, this weapon is essentially better than the previously mentioned weapons, and is perhaps only an alternative to Proto Buster, with its fast projectile movement and charge noise that does not loop and is also pretty discrete. The explosion on Pharaoh Shot is just extra icing.

Afterfire delay is a strange one. Nothing beats Atomic Fire in this (despite it being pretty pointless since the charge time is so long), save for Noise Crush. Afterfire delay is supposed to be a gateway that prevents reaching charge state inmediately after firing a charged shot: since Noise Crush charges to max inmediately after the player absorbs one of the small shots (which in turn makes charging this weapon a gimmicky process), this gateway is negated. Couple that with a 2HKO damage and a bigger-than-average hitbox size, and Noise Crush is pretty damn good...if it wasn't so damn noisy.

Charge time, easily Proto Buster is the fastest, if we exclude Noise Crush's inmediate but gimmicky charging method. Couple that with a fast projectile movement speed and a shield, and it's a pretty good deal. Thankfully, Proto Buster deals the 2nd least damage of all the charge weapons, only second to poor Super Adaptor. The rest have a pretty moderate charge time, although it becomes relevant to mention that weapons like Arrow Buster, Laser Buster and Homing Sniper have the same charge time as others, despite being capable of dealing a fuck ton of more damage than them; especially the MM8 buster upgrades, that consume no ammo.

In terms of hitbox sizes, none of them are way too big to always hit, or too small to barely hit at all. Special mention goes to Laser Buster: lots of ripping hitboxes, in a straight line, all of which are bigger than average.

Buster upgrades are the kings of ammo consumption. Duo Fist, and the MM8 buster upgrades are specially good with this, because of their really high to absurdly high damage output coupled with no ammo consumption and moderate afterfire delay makes them more efficient than special weapons. Of the special weapons, Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush consume very little ammo in comparison to others.

Now, after that analysis, we can tackle on the reason to suggest auto-release on charge weapons: they can pack too much power infinitely, with little consequence. From what I've seen, charge weapons with a lot of power usually have either a really long charge time, or have a really loud charge noise. Since we're focusing on POWER being the main factor here, let's look at the most powerful ones: Atomic Fire, Homing Sniper, and the MM8 buster upgrades.

Atomic Fire is loud and takes a long time to charge up, so enforcing a penalty on overcharge like the ones suggested is pretty bad: auto-fire and ammo drain would imply reducing the ammo consumption on max charge shot...which probably could be the way to tackle this weapon for being "too strong", by increasing the consumption on the max charge shot, and thus being a one time 1HKO that, if missed, needs to be manually filled with ammo, and thus making the penalty of missing even bigger. Another approach at this weapon would be a gimmick that existed in the original games: if the player is hit while charging Atomic Fire, the charge level is affected, either by completely resetting the charge, or by reducing it to mid charge. Other charge weapons such as Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush could also have this same principle applied to it: either losing or firing their shots on hit.

Homing Sniper is loud, but doesn't take that long to charge. Plus, it fires a barrage of homing missiles that, if they all connect, deal close to 1HKO damage. That is, if they all connect: a meatshot (firing a spread gun at close range) would be deadly, but at long range it can be easily dodged and blocked by walls. Ammo consumption also leaves enough room for another god tier 2HKO barrage. Same case as Atomic Fire here: ammo drain on max charge state would have to be balanced by ammo reduction, which is bad. Auto-fire on Homing Sniper COULD be added in, if reaching max charge state would trigger a very fast overcharge countdown that, when finished, would make the weapon fire 3 missiles instead of 5 on release.

The MM8 buster upgrades, in my opinion, should just have their damage nerfed instead of messing with their charge states: when they hit, they overkill, and Atomic Fire should be the only one weapon doing this.













TL;DR, you could make Atomic Fire, Pharaoh Shot and Noise Crush have their charge states affected when the player is hit, and you could add an overcharge to Homing Sniper that forces the weapon to fire 3 missiles instead of 5. Nerf the damn MM8 buster upgrades, they should not be supposed to be as good or better than Atomic Fire/Homing Sniper.

[Bikdark]

This topic legit deserves more coverage. Musashi made some extremely good points that have been completely untouched.

Charge weapons stagnate gameplay and remove diversity from games, effectively creating a boring whoever-hits-their-pharaoh-shot-first-when-we-meet in-a-hall-wins metagame. Rather than having high high risk/high reward and requiring good timing, charge weapons reign supreme as artificial pressure and skirmish openers.

This hasn't been an issue for 4 full releases of MM8BDM, I'm not sure I understand why it suddenly needs to be changed if game balance isn't the concern.

This "if it doesn't look broken, don't fix it" mentality is one of the things holding this game back. If you're not actively looking for ways to shake up the game and promote new ways to play besides adding 10 new weapons an update, you're not really doing a good job.

[Russel]

While I'm not 100% fond of Bikdark's attitude, I do agree with his logic in that charge weapons provide an obscene amount of pressure in most non-deathmatch settings.
The problems I have with charge weapons, specifically atomic fire, is that once they reach a full charge, they provide a large amount of pressure to nearby targets due to the punch they pack when they reach said level. And sure they take some time to charge, but the instant they reach full charge, their biggest weakness instantly disappears.
No amount of charge time or flashing lights or loud noises will circumvent this.
In the instance of Atomic Fire, they now have a shot that if they land is a guaranteed OHKO. In the instance of Duo Fist, they have a hard knuckle that fires instantly that can be instantly followed up upon. Pharaoh Shot? ...That's a monster in its own right, there's more wrong with it than just pressure. Wild Coil- okay let's face facts Wild Coil is actually pretty weak I think its spread should get brought back to v2a levels but that's beside the point.
These weapons provide a lot of pressure in environments where life matters and, like I said, no amount of flashing lights or loud noises is going to resolve that.

If you really want to think about this in a deathmatch-centric mentality, which seems to be the case, it would actually be buffing weapons that use charge times as it would promote releasing the weapon on a target early rather than holding onto it.

...And to be frank, I would consider balancing the game specifically around deathmatch and only deathmatch a tad foolish as the most played game mode has never been deathmatch and I don't feel I can respect that as a viable counter-argument based on that prospect.

[Messatsu]

While I'm not 100% fond of Bikdark's attitude, I do agree with his logic in that charge weapons provide an obscene amount of pressure in most non-deathmatch settings.

Don't feed the Bikdark

The problems I have with charge weapons, specifically atomic fire, is that once they reach a full charge, they provide a large amount of pressure to nearby targets due to the punch they pack when they reach said level. And sure they take some time to charge, but the instant they reach full charge, their biggest weakness instantly disappears.  No amount of charge time or flashing lights or loud noises will circumvent this.  In the instance of Atomic Fire, they now have a shot that if they land is a guaranteed OHKO. In the instance of Duo Fist, they have a hard knuckle that fires instantly that can be instantly followed up upon.

I disagree with this.  Once a weapon reaches full charge the strategy changes based on the weapon they have.  Duo and Atomic Fire both have slow projectiles.  Switch to a fast projectile and backpedal.  If they reach full charge and are right on top of you, then props to them for out maneuvering you.  Hell, Hard Knuckle has a far faster RoF than Duo Fist and is on the same relative level of power, so I'm a bit perplexed why that was used as a comparison point at all.  Even looking at fast shots like Laser Buster, you still have the ability to make them miss by firing at them and jumping/strafing.  If they hit you through all that, they deserve the hit.  

Pharaoh Shot? ...That's a monster in its own right, there's more wrong with it than just pressure.

I don't think many folks will argue that Pharaoh needs a few tweaks, but that has less to do with the charging and more to do with the explosion radius.

Wild Coil- okay let's face facts Wild Coil is actually pretty weak I think its spread should get brought back to v2a levels but that's beside the point.

Wild Coil was kinda OP in it's 2a level.  With the spread so narrow it became very difficult to dodge in any reasonably closed area.  Obviously it's power was nerfed, but this is something that could be debated in it's own right I suppose.

These weapons provide a lot of pressure in environments where life matters and, like I said, no amount of flashing lights or loud noises is going to resolve that.

If you really want to think about this in a deathmatch-centric mentality, which seems to be the case, it would actually be buffing weapons that use charge times as it would promote releasing the weapon on a target early rather than holding onto it.

...And to be frank, I would consider balancing the game specifically around deathmatch and only deathmatch a tad foolish as the most played game mode has never been deathmatch and I don't feel I can respect that as a viable counter-argument based on that prospect.

The pressure argument makes no sense to me. If the opposing player has Duo Fist charged or Hard Knuckle, then the strategy is not really all that different.  Power weapons require a different approach than rapid weapons. Mostly, don't try to block with your face as much.

 The name of the mod literally includes the word DEATHMATCH.  I'm not saying weapons should ONLY be balanced for DM, but they should be VIABLE in DM.  In addition, it's implausible to balance every weapon in the game so that it's equally viable in every mode.  If there are outliers such as Pharaoh Shot's explosive radius, then they need to be addressed.  IMO charge weapons do not fit into that category.

[Bikdark]

Mess, when was the last time you played a vanilla gamemode outside of testing/release parties?

[Messatsu]

Charge weapons have been been in the game since v1a.  Your question is irrelevant.  If you disagree with one of my points, please explain why.