Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch V5B - 22/05/17!

[Draconic13]

I understand the complaints of the shields. every weapon should be able to damage the opponent 1 on 1.

[Messatsu]

I made a promise to myself that I wouldn't comment any further on this forum unless someone brought up the very issues that I had complained about repeatedly.  As a note on the below, I'm NOT saying that changes weren't warranted on the weapons.  What I AM saying is that the changes for the most part were so piss poorly thought out that it's just inexcusable.

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Proto Buster - The change goes against the very design of the weapon.  This is a charge weapon.  There is almost NO scenario where you aren't going to be charging it.  The shield is now rendered entirely pointless.  Why is it even there?  No player is ever going to walk around uncharged with an unreliable shield.  There was literally NO thought put into this change at all, just a slap dash hack.  The only reason it was altered was because of concerns with duel and that's just sad if that's the entire reason for a change like this.  Look, if the problem is that the shield gives it too much defense combined with a great offense, then there are other ways to mitigate it.  Make the shield fly off or something when too much damage is taken, or have more weapons that can pierce the shield.  Changes that require both players to use more tactics.  If you're just going to apply a lazy "fix" like this, don't do it.  This isn't fun, or interesting.  It's just taking a nerf bat to something that was only an issue in one mode that could easily be patched around anyway.

Atomic Fire - Another weapon that has a foolish change.  Sure this one had community feedback, but the rational behind the change was equally stupid.  That complaint about being OHKO'd from across the map? Yea, this doesn't even remotely address that problem.  It just makes the weapon harder to hit with and that's fun right?  That will solves ALL the problems!   The only thing this change does is remove skill from the weapon and just make it more luck based.  The EXACT OPPOSITE of what should be done.  This weapon was not even off the power scale either.  It has a horrible firing rate for the big shot, abysmal ammo and the projectile travels slow.  Aside from the OHKO potential, just about every other charge weapon is better from a power scale standpoint.  There was absolutely no reason to take a nerf bat to this weapon. Instead, other weapons should have been taken into account to help mitigate it the OHKO potential.  The fact that this wasn't done or even considered really highlights a massive failing in the design of this weapon.

Leaf Shield -  I can totally understand this not being an easy weapon to work with so I won't be as hard here.  However, the end result is basically just a variation on Mirror Buster.  The biggest issue is that the effect of the weapon is almost nothing like the canon Leaf Shield.  While not horrible, it just doesn't feel right for the weapon it's supposed to be. 

Skull Barrier - This is another one I can understand not being easy to work with.  The problem here is inconsistency as it's the only weapon you can switch off of.  If you're going to have shields be switchable, then just fucking do that.  This half-way bullshit is confusing!  There's no communication to the player about this being a feature unless the person accidentally stumbles across it.  The lack of conveyance here is an issue.  It's also functionally useless if activated in the proximity of players at all.  By the time you activate it and switch off of it, you've probably already taken the 1 hit needed to take it down.  As Mega had also pointed it, the protection against 1 hit also overlaps with Leaf Shield as well, so while there are differences between the weapons, having both revamps share that trait is lame as fuck.

Mirror Buster - Again changes that are just straight up so idiotic that it's baffling.  Primarily the strong shot.  Previously it could OHKO the opponent, but here it caps out at 45 damage.  So yes, if someone shot at you with a Proto Buster shot that deals 50 damage, the most you can fire back with is 45.  How in the hell does that make any sense to anybody?  This weapon requires you to be in the line of fire, not have the weapon cool down on you, have enough ammo AND aim at the player correctly to score a hit and SOMEHOW this weapon is so OP that it needs to be nerfed that hard?  I know the argument put forth was that when someone had mirror buster out it ground the flow of combat to a halt.  Problem being this, ONCE AGAIN, doesn't address that issue.  It only makes the weapon less desirable to use by reducing it's viability against powerful weapons.  The very nature of this weapon is to COUNTER power weapons like Atomic Fire for god's sake.  Like I mentioned in the Atomic Fire commentary, you NEED to have something that can mitigate threats like that.  You're removing them in favor of just making everything crappier.  That's a horrible design philosophy.

Final Thoughts:
Pick a mode and focus on it.  This wishy-washy crap where changes are made for specific modes only is creating some lazy and idiotic nerfs.  Every attempt at this has resulted in changes that just make weapons less fun to use.  You could easily have weapons play off each other and counter one another to deal with balance issues, but nobody seems to want to give the attention needed to rectify this problem.  I would like to think that ZDR v3 will allow for more creativity in the future, but given how these changes were handled, I have absolutely no faith in the future of this game.  By this, I mean that the time and attention to address serious game design problems are being ignored in favor of "Look at the new shiny!" I hope I'm wrong, but at this point, I'm not holding my breath.

There's so much more I could comment upon, but I'm done.
Messatsu out.

Edit: I've modified this post to tone down the vitriol as that was not my intention.

[King Dumb]

If Messatsu (or anyone really) wants to see my response to specific points, just check out the spoiler.

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The point I want to address most of yours is regarding Proto Buster, because while in certain vacuums your point makes some sense - like a Duel where one person can only use Proto Buster or something - if you consider the change in broader contexts the shield is still very relevant. It can serve a purpose similar to Mirror Buster, quickly switching into it to avoid some damage. If the situation you're in calls for using the uncharged shots (which do 20 damage), you can incorporate the shield into the battle. If you're charging the weapon, you have a safety net to fall back on after you release your shot. If you're engaging someone in a more drawn-out battle, you can use the weapon to give yourself some time to breathe, collect health and ammo (w/ Energy Balancer), and plan your next moves. If you're playing TDM, you can be an asset to your team with a shield, and if you're crossing a battlefield, having the shield up will save you some health in the long run.

The most common complaint about Atomic Fire was not about the across-the-map random OHKOs, but rather "Atomic bullfighting."

I'm actually with you on wanting to stay close to canon where feasible for many reasons, but with the history of Leaf Shield in this game I think the current iteration was worth presenting in a complete version of the game. As always, monitoring the reaction (both immediate and long-term) to changes such as that is the best way to arrive at a good final product, because in matters of principle, like canon vs. not, it's important to remember that the game is not just for the creators but for the players, too.

I actually agree with you about the switching weapons with Skull Barrier business, but again this was an otherwise good change that was worth presenting in a complete version of the game. It takes time for tradition-breaking things to catch on and become the new norm, so I'm okay with this inconsistency with the knowledge that it's now a dynamic we can explore in the future, one way or another. What I don't agree with is your argument that the change is functionally useless. Just from playing with the weapon I can tell you that's not true.

I understand that from a certain moral perspective it's expected that counters should deal more damage than the move they're countering, but I think it's more than okay to violate that potential expectation when the utility of the weapon is so high regardless. Importantly, changing the damage accomplishes a nerf without changing how the weapon feels to use (except in rare circumstances in Duel, but it's fair to alter those specific circumstances if the change is good for the rest of the game).

I don't believe in picking one mode and sticking with it. That undersells the developers that work their hardest to make a game that everyone can enjoy, and of course it's not fair to the players themselves, who enjoy a variety of game modes. Just because it's harder doesn't mean it shouldn't be done. And I think, just as a first example, v5 has been enjoyed in a huge variety of ways so far.

Also, faith in the future of the game should not be decided by the ideology of changes nor by the mode those changes seem to be made for nor by scrutinizing a design philosophy that may not be consistent with your own. Faith in the future of the game should be placed in the individuals that are making maps, art, weapons, new gameplay experiences, and events, and in the playerbase that enjoys these things and keeps the community alive. If you truly have no faith in the future of MM8BDM, then you're telling every modder, developer, and player that you don't believe in their work and in their enjoyment.

Personally, looking at all the hard work that's already been put in and enjoyed and that will continue to be put in and enjoyed, I'm very optimistic about the future of the game.

P.S.: I don't want to bloat this thread up with emotionally charged discussion so if anyone feels the need to maintain the level of... passion(?) of Mess's post please at least start it somewhere else. Criticism is fine in here but emotional escalation belongs elsewhere.

[NES Boy]

So, we're in December now, and the 17th is the 29th anniversary of the first Mega Man game's release in Japan. Do you have anything special to announce or show for MM8BDM by then?

[CutmanMike]

Probably not. We're still a little ways away from being able to show the goods. We really need the new version of Zandronum to come out first!

[MusashiAA]

Should probably change the topic title to "Waiting for Zandronum 3.0 release". Though v5b is probably still being worked on, so this is not a situation of "it's complete, we're waiting for Zand 3.0 and then we inmediately release".

[NemZ]

I know I've been awol for a while, but shouldn't I get a badge for the use of some of my tiles in the Quint fight?  Just saying.

[CutmanMike]

Oops. There you go!

[NemZ]

Yay!

[CHAOS_FANTAZY]

I don't really have any good way to get in contact with the devteam, but I suppose this topic will do--since the objective of v5b is a story overhaul, I figured someone ought to point out the plot hole that v5a introduced*, one I feel could have easily gone unnoticed by the higher-ups.

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5va "replaced" the battle against the ever-infamous Wily Capsule 7 with a battle against Bass, who utilizes his Super Adaptor to fuse with Treble in his second form.  In the canon timeline, he got this by being activated at the start of MM7, posing as an ally to Mega Man and infiltrating Light Laboratories, such that he could ransack it and make off with the Super Adaptor technology that Dr. Light intended to be utilized by Mega Man.
However, in MM8BDM's timeline, not only does Dr. Wily release Bass before the events of MM7, to enter him in Mr. X's Robot World Tournament (thus meaning Maestro would know him to be created by Dr. Wily, and likely be weary to trust him), but Bass never even appears at Light's Laboratory (Except to challenge Maestro), let alone ransack it and steal stuff.
How, then, could Bass have the Super Adaptor technology?

* Technically, this plot hole has existed since v4 introduced the Treble Boost adaptor weapon, but I failed to notice it until now.

[CutmanMike]

Well the super adapter tech and all the other crazy weapons are available on the field of battle in the tournament, ready for the taking. Also Bass will no longer be appearing as a bot in the Robot Master Tournament arc.

[CutmanMike]

Here is the new intro for the game!

This will be replacing the Mega Man 2 introduction sequence where the camera spins around the building.

As for V5B progress, we're getting there. We still don't have Zandronum 3.0 yet but a new beta was released so hopefully this means development is almost over on their end.

Note: This is not the V5B trailer. That will come later and will highlight the story update. 

[The_Broker]

Very good! I especially like the robot master flashing up from each chapter. I noticed that each third robot master flashing up segued into some game play from their respective map, except for Pluto. Will game play for his map be inserted once the MMV chapter is released?

[Endymion]

Terra, come on! My second favorite game from the series after the Wily Tower's secret game. I read you're waiting for the Zandronum to update 3.0, I'm doing the same. That will be the moment when I doesn't have to keep two separate copies of the game for the mods that uses 3.0. I'm looking forward for this.

[NES Boy]

I noticed you used 8-bit versions of Geno's fanmade MM&B database images for Galaxy Man and Solar Man: