MM8BDM v5b - Weapon Tuning (New Weapons)

[Dr. Freeman]

Hey all you mega fans! Welcome back to one of these topics!

We had one of these for V5a but I figured with all of the new weapons/weapon reworks done in that version, it would be more beneficial to make a brand new topic.

So here's that time where we reach out to the community and ask what do you think of the current weapon set in 8 Bit Deathmatch. Are there some weapons that are too strong? Are there some weapons that are too weak? What about all those reworks and new ones, are those good weapons in themselves? We're here to listen to your opinion! We want to hear what the community thinks as a whole!
For the time being we're gonna keep the discussion a bit more open than the last topic. We're gonna focus specifically on the new and changed weapons for this discussion. Which I will quickly list below.

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New Weapons-
Laser Trident
Magma Bazooka
Black Hole Bomb
Tornado Blow
Concrete Shot
Jewel Satellite
Hornet Chaser
Plug Ball

Reworked Weapons-
Leaf Shield
Skull Barrier (V5b has already added a timer to this weapon)
Centaur Flash

Tweaked Weapons (that are more than just a number or two)-
Proto Buster
Atomic Fire
Plant Barrier
Copy Vision
Mirror Buster

 

We just want to hear what you think on these changed weapons! Are any of them still problems? Are they good? Idunno let's hear some OPINIONS! And if you think a weapon is a problem, how would you elect to change it? Our only request is that you make it clear which weapon you're talking about, just for easier organization down the road.

Thank you all very much and we look forward to hearing your thoughts!

[Bikdark]

I'm gonna be blunt when I say you're not going to get any proper feedback. People don't play nearly enough vanilla to warrant having an opinion on ANY weapons, let alone these ones in particular. I'm not gonna get into the Classes vs Vanilla topic too much, but that's unfortunately the core problem. Maybe a "real talk" thread regarding making the vanilla game more enjoyable would be a better option, because I'm not sure this thread is going to do much good.

Oh, and threads like this should probably get @everyone'd on discord due to the massive drop in CS participation.

[CutmanMike]

Vanilla weapons make their way into other game modes too, including CBM. I know it's a different beast but when all the weapons are available you can still give your thoughts on which ones are over/under performing or just aren't fun to use. We can't just turn a blind eye to vanilla weapon balance if people have thoughts on them, so I'll do that everyone ping.

[SaviorSword]

Vanilla weapons make their way into other game modes too, including CBM. I know it's a different beast but when all the weapons are available you can still give your thoughts on which ones are over/under performing or just aren't fun to use. We can't just turn a blind eye to vanilla weapon balance if people have thoughts on them, so I'll do that everyone ping.

Can't disagree with that sentiment. Without vanilla, none of today would be the way it is now.

[Bikdark]

Oh yeah totally I agree, CBM is reliant on vanilla, but I'm not sure you're going to get what you want (more people to play vanilla) with just balancing weapons alone. To be honest, vanilla is a lot more fair than people make it out to be, but the sheer lack of gameplay stems from a burden of knowledge and burden of mechanics, among other "unfun" attributes. I mean... you might get closer to a "truly balanced" game with this thread, which I commend you all on, (because even through said lack of gameplay, you strive for quality,) but I don't know if it's going to amount to very much.

There's a particular term referred to in a video discussing competitive game balance, called "medium maximization", described as "The propensity to forget all about the end goal one wants to achieve, and to pursue instead, the means or mediums to that end goal." I think it has some relevance in this context, with the end goal being "fun and competition", and the medium being "balance".

Just some food for thought.

[Soundwave02]

I am just going to talk about the weapons i have serious comments on them and i might be also wrong about some points i am about to rise so i don't mind if my stuff doesn't get considered, or to an extend, get taken seriously.

-Tornado Blow

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This weapon just reflects a complaint i have with mm8bdm, the fact that some weapons are just not good in combat despite being WEAPONS, instead they're just secondary tools (either mobility or defensive capabilities), however Tornado Blow actually does nice damage and can juggle people in the sky but its just not exactly as good as its AoE weapon brothers. This weapon is fucking hilarious on a (stupid) server that enabled Fall damage on.

-Hornet Chaser

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Compared to the other homing weapons, this one could be called the lesser of evils, magnet missile and dive missile can be cheese mode sometimes, Homing Sniper is a super shotgun of death but hornet chaser doesn't do anything deadly, ...and that's exactly my problem. You can juke the bees, outrun the bees, kill the bee user before his bees kill you and the bee user can only backpedal from you anyways. I don't like this kite happy weapon but at least it could work (once we get zan 3.0) on CTF.

-Skull Barrier

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While the comment on getting a timer for it to wear off sounds good because right now, this shit makes Pharaoh Shot and Atomic Fire and just about any charge shot weapon useless in duel/1v1 situations the moment skull barrier is on the map or everyone rolled it on (T)LMS. Also it didn't fixed the "hotkey for invuln" detail, this thing is what a friend of mine calls, pocket invuln. My only suggestion for this weapon is that the timer for it to wear off should come in with a delay before you can set another S.Barrier, so you can have a large vulnerability window to throw in your charge shot, and knowing A.Fire duelism, people are patient enough to time a good A.Fire shot well enough to kill you. Speaking of...

-Atomic Fire

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I like the nerf it got, it made it so that using A.Fire (in my opinion) is all about bluffing your opponent into either jumping or cornering himself or just shooting it JUST RIGHT, it also pulled the whole "projectile-that-gains-speed-over-distance" gimmick better than Laser Trident just by the fact that if you hit it, you get a reward of instagib damage for your opponent.
HOWEVER, fuck the ammo, it should be 2 full charge shots for the entire ammo bar, not just one, this makes this weapon fucking painful to use in (T)LMS because if you miss, you are fucked. Just give it enough ammo for a second MAX power shot, that's all i have to say about the magic ball of fire.

-Centaur Flash

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BUT THIS IS WHERE I AM GOING TO GET FUCKING REALISTIC ABOUT THIS MOD'S PROBLEM OF MAKING WEAPONS BE JUST TOOLS.
I mean i know Centaur Flash was horribly overpowered but this thing is just garbage and here's why.

The invisibility doesn't last enough for you to escape or trick your opponent, it also doesn't give you +ghost or whatever shit that'd make you run THROUGH people, IT DOES NO ABSOLUTE DAMAGE, it also doesn't reflect shots back, it SHOULD give you the ability swap weapons during the invisibility, so the EXACT moment you become visibile, you can shoot your opponent with whatever, like "surprise slash claw/flame sword/tengublade, bitch". And the Flash itself should do more supportive things like getting you immediately out of timeslow/sparkshock/cconcreteshot/Homing sniper tags and if possible, reflect homing shots back to its original user (by also resetting the timer on the homing projectiles in the case of hornet chaser, get chaser by a bunch of bees, flash them and you have them swarm his owner) and maybe combat side, since in canon, Centaur Flash is Centaurman manipulating reality, you could make it so that getting pony flashed, your opponent's vision turns 45° to the left or right, making the short invis better.

This weapon doesn't really need a TOTAL rework again but it does need some tuning.

And lastly

-Mirror Buster

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This thing is powercreeped by leaf shield in every way, it doesn't protect you a lot, the ammo lasts so short and the reflected shots aren't exactly easy to aim and also unrewarding since they do like 40 something max, compared to other projectiles that can do more, it feels like Mirror Buster doesn't reflect equal or better damage than its user is (potentially) taking, it should just get secondary capabilities like being also a reflecting shield so if you get shot by dive missiles, this thing can bounce them back and maybe edit the way it works, holding it makes the shield stay for a couple of seconds then die and then you rise it again like, what if you could just hold it and the ammo sloooowly drains out unless you're getting shot? I'd make it better imo.

And that's all i have to say about this topic.

[Gumballtoid]

Would like to pop in to say that Laser Trident is a complete chore of a weapon and is simply too unwieldy to see much success with. Too much effort is required for too little payoff, if you ask me.

It would be neat if, as Soundwave said, Centaur Flash either lasted a little longer, let you switch weapons while invisible, or did away with the effects of weapons like Spark Shock or Time Slow. Not sure how possible the last two are, but just my thoughts.

I'll probably give some more substantial opinions once I'm not on mobile.

[Endymion]

I not used the MM9 weapons that much but totally agree on Centaur Flash. At its current state is is like a "fake warp, in-warp fight included". It is useful in complex maps but doesn't really gives you any option to actually do anything that helps you. If you ask me it is like removing the the character light-ups in UT2004: enough to evade a rush once but this won't bother anyone with a weapon.

However I have to say I doesn't like the idea to give the ability to switch and use different weapons while the Flash is active. It would be better if it deals little more damage but also stops the user a little (much like the copy weapon from the NES game). If it become an effective weapon from its own, not even the invisibility is required. It will looks more like the original counterpart.

... hmmm maybe it should destroy the projectiles near to you for some extra usability.

[Xhatahx]

Would like to pop in to say that Laser Trident is a complete chore of a weapon and is simply too unwieldy to see much success with. Too much effort is required for too little payoff, if you ask me.

Couldn't have said it better. Maybe shorten the acceleration time.

-Hornet Chaser

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Compared to the other homing weapons, this one could be called the lesser of evils, magnet missile and dive missile can be cheese mode sometimes, Homing Sniper is a super shotgun of death but hornet chaser doesn't do anything deadly, ...and that's exactly my problem. You can juke the bees, outrun the bees, kill the bee user before his bees kill you and the bee user can only backpedal from you anyways. I don't like this kite happy weapon but at least it could work (once we get zan 3.0) on CTF.

Seconded, except for using it in CTF. Maybe speed up the bees so you'll have to strafe-run from them.

-Atomic Fire

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I like the nerf it got, it made it so that using A.Fire (in my opinion) is all about bluffing your opponent into either jumping or cornering himself or just shooting it JUST RIGHT, it also pulled the whole "projectile-that-gains-speed-over-distance" gimmick better than Laser Trident just by the fact that if you hit it, you get a reward of instagib damage for your opponent.
HOWEVER, fuck the ammo, it should be 2 full charge shots for the entire ammo bar, not just one, this makes this weapon fucking painful to use in (T)LMS because if you miss, you are fucked. Just give it enough ammo for a second MAX power shot, that's all i have to say about the magic ball of fire.

Also seconded.

-Mirror Buster

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This thing is powercreeped by leaf shield in every way, it doesn't protect you a lot, the ammo lasts so short and the reflected shots aren't exactly easy to aim and also unrewarding since they do like 40 something max, compared to other projectiles that can do more, it feels like Mirror Buster doesn't reflect equal or better damage than its user is (potentially) taking, it should just get secondary capabilities like being also a reflecting shield so if you get shot by dive missiles, this thing can bounce them back and maybe edit the way it works, holding it makes the shield stay for a couple of seconds then die and then you rise it again like, what if you could just hold it and the ammo sloooowly drains out unless you're getting shot? I'd make it better imo.

Also seconded, except for the reflecting shield thing.
one day i'll get to talk about time stopper without being an asshole

[chuggaafan1]

Would like to pop in to say that Laser Trident is a complete chore of a weapon and is simply too unwieldy to see much success with. Too much effort is required for too little payoff, if you ask me.

Third-ed.

Hornets could use some kind of buff, but it's hard to think of one that's both substantial and not-overpowering.