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Author Topic: Ghouls vs Humans NES  (Read 51960 times)

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November 03, 2012, 03:02:37 AM
Reply #30

Offline xColdxFusionx

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 03:02:37 AM »
Quote from: "Korby"
-snip-

Okay, a couple of my suggestions were a bit hasty, but it's annoying that the whole game just feels completely unbalanced. Everything feels like it should be different.

Also, the comment about Choke being durable was because I remembered reading that Choke had 150 HP. Might have had him mixed up with someone else.

Sjas, Yurei, and Cacodemon comments still stand. Sjas needs to be toned down somehow, Yurei needs to be made something other than just a more powerful Creeper, and Cacodemon needs to be able to actually do something other than sit there and eat lead.

November 03, 2012, 03:21:03 AM
Reply #31

Offline TheDoc

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2012, 03:21:03 AM »
Cacodemon needs a buff. That is all on that.

Sjas doesn't seem horribly bad damage-wise, but that uber-fast flight problem is just stupid. I was in a game where there were 3 humans all firing at a Sjas flying around and not hitting him. HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Yurei. DAT FLAMIN VORTEX A TERROR! Is that instakill? Because every time I see him, he pulls that out and I don't even try to run. :|

November 03, 2012, 03:55:59 AM
Reply #32

Offline Giantmega

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2012, 03:55:59 AM »
I Got A Problem when trying to join the Deathwind's GvH Nes Server, After The Skulltag loads, It Says Im Not Using The Same Pk3's As The Server When I Already Got The GvH8BDM.pk3

November 03, 2012, 03:58:54 AM
Reply #33

Offline Korby

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2012, 03:58:54 AM »
Do you have the mappacks loaded as well?

November 03, 2012, 04:17:32 AM
Reply #34

Offline Giantmega

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2012, 04:17:32 AM »
Yes, I have them loaded, and get the same thing, "Make sure ur using the same pk3's as the server"

Other Problem is that its doing this to every server i try to join now ^.

November 03, 2012, 04:34:28 AM
Reply #35

Offline Laggy Blazko

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2012, 04:34:28 AM »
Make sure you don't have anything wrong in the skins folder. Just skins and music/taunt packs.

November 03, 2012, 04:49:56 AM
Reply #36

Offline xColdxFusionx

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2012, 04:49:56 AM »
Quote from: "TheDoc"
Sjas doesn't seem horribly bad damage-wise, but that uber-fast flight problem is just stupid. I was in a game where there were 3 humans all firing at a Sjas flying around and not hitting him. HNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG

Sjas can do up 105 damage if he's on top of you. One-shots on a lightning-fast death machine is kind of scary. My opinion: Nerf his damage so that he becomes the "evasion tank" who draws attention and gunfire.

Quote from: "TheDoc"
Yurei. DAT FLAMIN VORTEX A TERROR! Is that instakill? Because every time I see him, he pulls that out and I don't even try to run. :|

Flame Vortex does 20 damage per ball iirc. Which is obnoxiously powerful at close range.
I originally designed the thing for a glass cannon. They made it into a death machine.

November 03, 2012, 07:02:35 AM
Reply #37

Offline Hilman170499

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2012, 07:02:35 AM »
Should Frostbite be weak to something that beats ice?

It kind of makes sense. Furthermore, Frostbite "shatters" upon death.

November 03, 2012, 07:04:28 AM
Reply #38

Offline Korby

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #38 on: November 03, 2012, 07:04:28 AM »
I think someone mentioned Frostbite was weak to fire.

I don't see how that shattering thing really makes sense but ok.

November 03, 2012, 07:27:54 AM
Reply #39

Offline MusashiAA

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #39 on: November 03, 2012, 07:27:54 AM »
So my thoughts:

Regarding humans:
Spoiler for Hiden:
Marine: His skin looks awful. The weapons are very cool, but he seems rather standard. The best weapon all around is the machine gun, which ends up being effective enough to outshine the other weapons...but he's mostly OK.

NERFS: None.

BUFFS: None.

Hunter: For a class with lots of 2-4HKO attacks with blinding-fast projectiles, he way a lot of ammo. 30 arrows, to be precise, and no penalty usage for the elemental arrows. And the altfire attacks don't even consume ammo.

His gameplay is OK, but the way it's executed is very forgiving. I know, ghouls are a very bad thing as they stand right now: but I'll get to that later on.

NERFS: I'd suggest a second ammo bar that acts as "mana", where the altfires and the elemental arrows get their magic from. Each elemental arrow would consume its own amount of mana: a full mana bar would allow for 7 lightning arrows, 12 fire arrows, 15 ice arrows. This will end up being rather pointless, but when combined with altfire magic, where each magic should use half the mana bar, you'll want to think when to shoot your elemental arrows.

BUFFS: I'd also like the Hunter to slow down a little bit when "holding" an arrow, but the more you hold it, the faster the arrow will go, up to 1 and 1/2 faster than the current projectile speed. I'd also like some elemental arrows to have a special added effect on hit: lightning stuns ghouls, and ice slows them down.

Cyborg: Everyone says that old YD Wily is pretty much a copy of this...THIS is not old Wily at all, but I can see the resemblance. You have over 100 shots that are literally 6HKOs, and a very rapid rate of fire. You also are very mobile, and can fly (not a reliable flight, but good enough.

I can see the role here, but some aspects are missing:

NERFS: Reduce his movement speed by 20%. Decrease the mainfire's rate of fire AND reduce his total ammo by 50%, because he has way too much more than he'll ever need.

BUFFS: Increase his HP to 150.

GHOSTBUSTER!: The only thing I have to complain about this class is that his proton beam has enough ammo to last for 16 seconds non-stop. That's too much, and to put it in perspective, I can kill 10 Megamen in a row and still keep half of my ammo. Despite this, it's a very good class. The ghost trap is very ingenious, and I like that it does go away after a long, long while, when it's needed the least. I'm gonna leave the copy weapons alone: if they're OP, the Ghostbuster well deserves it for killing a ghoul...not because it took much effort in killing it, but rather surviving the fight:

NERFS: Increase the proton beam's ammo usage by 50%.

BUFFS: None.

Engineer: His nailgun is a 7HKO with infinite ammo, his "Meteor Launcher" is a 3HKO, and the buzzsaws are broken as hell.

NERFS: Nerf the nailgun to a 9HKO. Fix the buzzsaws.

BUFFS:None.

Arthur: To put it in perspective: Hunter's normal arrow is a 4HKO, Arthur's Spear is a 5HKO. The Sword&Shield makes him pretty much a ghoul (1HKO melee attack) with Proto Shield, and the shield bash would be the most griefing weapon ever devised since Magnet Push...if it weren't for flying ghouls, but we'll get to that later on. The Fire weapon is broken as hell: 7 of those columns at a time makes it a really good area denial weapon (fire a column, switch to Sword&Shield, hold altfire while looking down, get hit by the fire: pro)...which is good given the circumstances, I guess. The Axe is a subpar Screw Crusher, but he has more interesting weapons.

NERFS: Make the Spear a 6HKO. Nerf the Sword's ripping damage by at least 2 damage; reduce the Shield's range, the damage AND the pushing force by 50%. Speed up the Fire Column's life duration by 30%.

BUFFS: I was thinking maybe have him gain invincibility frames a-la Choke only when he reaches less than 25 HP. That is, if his HP is reduced to less than 25 HP, invis frames kick in after every hit.

Regarding ghouls (in general):
Spoiler for Hiden:
Ahem...INFINITE FLIGHT?! WHAT KIND OF A BRAIN DEAD DEVELOPER GIVES A PLAYER INFINITE FLIGHT TO A CLASS IN A TEAM-BASED MOD?!. Well, the kind of developer that misses the huge billboard written with shit that spells "STALLING" all in caps.

I'm sorry for being such an asshole, but I have to manifest my frustration over such a miss. You can't blame the map OR the player for permitting stallers to stall: the map was not made in mind with a player capable of using a part of its layout that is unreachable through normal (read: vanilla) means as a stalling spot, and the player should not be blamed for using an ability that allows him to escape harm for as long as he desires thanks to using a previously unreachable spot to hide. You can say votekicks remove the staller, but it does not fix the issue: it only solves the consequences of a design flaw.

Fixes: I have currently two ways of dealing with this abysmally bad design flaw:

1.- Item flight. You give the ghoul an ammo bar if it didn't have one. Itemfire triggers the flight, it consumes either the brand new fligh ammo, or his default ammo. Once it's entirely consumed, you start falling, and it only regenerates if you're on the ground. YOU'RE WELCOME.

2.- If by some sad, disgusting and stubborn fate, you decide that these ghouls should be able to lolligag all over the sky with no limitations or gameplay penalizations whatsoever, with the wonderful ability of hiding in out-of-reach spots for as long as they want until the players have to resort to votekicking (proud of you, son), here's another idea: if a ghoul doesn't KILL a player for 1 minute, they start losing health at a fantastic rate of 1 HP per second. So stallers either go out and kill somebody, or they starve to death.

OK. Now that's out of the road...

Regarding ghouls (one by one):
Spoiler for Hiden:
Sjashow do you pronounce this: Your average ghoul with a 90 damage ripper melee attack, really fast movement speed, 100 HP and a subpar reflect ability. OK, that's about it:

NERFS: Nerf his melee attack so it does 80 damage. Reduce his initial HP to 50.

BUFFS: Make the reflect ability better, or last a bit longer.

Jitterskull: He's pretty solid as a ghoul class. The jittery movement is rather unreliable and unpredictable if you lag a bit, but it's not too bad.

NERFS: None.

BUFFS: None.

Creeper: The OHKO ghoul that nobody can see OR know how to harm at first. Why do I have to shoot right under him to harm him? He's clearly not underground, he's just part of the floor.

NERFS: The damn thing should be easier to shoot.

BUFFS: None.

Choke: Grab Sjas' already OP mainfire, and give it a faster RoF PLUS TWO medium range 1HKO attacks, while keeping the same movement speed and removing flight. That's Choke. OK, let's see:

NERFS: Reduce the ripper melee attack so it does 75 damage tops and for God's sake, reduce the rate of fire by 30%. Nerf the Blood Ball shot to do 90 damage, nerf the blood puke attack to not 1HKO on a single spew.

BUFFS: None.

Frostbiteor Slash, whatever: Bearing the most fearful ripper melee attack out of the normal ghouls (does over 95 damage at point blank), and a very deadly über Icy Breeze with projectiles that bounce. Doesn't seem at bad as it looks, though. Your average ghoul.

NERFS: Reduce his initial HP to 90. Yup, that's it.

BUFFS: None.

Cacodemonor a mutant meatwad, whatever: Dat bite, dat HP, dat...pathetic pea shooter? And slow to boot? What, no.

NERFS: None.

BUFFS: Increase his movement speed by 10%. Make his altfire shot either a 6HKO or with an added explosion a-la Hunter's fire arrow.

Yureior Goatse, seems more appropiate: That silent 1HKO, that overly compensating, Touhou-esque barrage of deadly fireballs (each sporting 8 damage, mind you), that cheap and unreliable invisibility...not as bad as it sounds after you see Choke, unless I'm the one that's killed by a Yurei. I gotta say, fucking genius, you literally make human players pay a whole lot more attention to their surroundings.

NERFS: None.

BUFFS: None.

I have to admit: I have no experience with the original game. It's just not something I was attracted to try for a number of reasons. This is the first public release, everything's virtually done. An amazing job at getting this done, I have to congratulate the developers of this for bringing this to fruition. It really is amazing.

That doesn't stop me from glancing the numerous design flaws and balance issues that this mod has. Maybe they aren't issues in the original game, given that perhaps maps were designed around these abilities and classes. Sadly, this is not the case for MM8BM and as such, measures must be taken. I don't want to bring the developers of this port or anyone down because of such balancing issues: this is by no means a bad modification. It is, in fact, one of the most interesting mods for MM8BDM, and I can see this becoming overplayed in a while. But as this is the first release, issues and bugs are bound to surface, no matter how much it was tested or discussed or who did.

November 03, 2012, 07:44:39 AM
Reply #40

Offline Korby

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #40 on: November 03, 2012, 07:44:39 AM »
Spoiler for Hiden:
Quote from: "MusashiAA"
Ahem...INFINITE FLIGHT?! WHAT KIND OF A BRAIN DEAD DEVELOPER GIVES A PLAYER INFINITE FLIGHT TO A CLASS IN A TEAM-BASED MOD?!
astroman

Quote from: "MusashiAA"
Choke: Grab Sjas' already OP mainfire, and give it a faster RoF PLUS TWO medium range 1HKO attacks, while keeping the same movement speed and removing flight. That's Choke. OK, let's see:

NERFS: Reduce the ripper melee attack so it does 75 damage tops and for God's sake, reduce the rate of fire by 30%. Nerf the Blood Ball shot to do 90 damage, nerf the blood puke attack to not 1HKO on a single spew.

two mid-range ohkos

what the heck are you talking about

choke's blood vomit is only "useful" close range, and even then, it's just so you can run away and not die from things. you basically have to be right next to choke for that thing to kill anything, and if you're right next to choke, you're doing it wrong.

blood ball is hard to aim, and if you're hit up close, again, you got too close to a ghoul and it's your fault.



do keep in mind my posts are usually my thoughts and not the developer's

November 03, 2012, 08:26:02 AM
Reply #41

Offline MusashiAA

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2012, 08:26:02 AM »
Quote from: "Korby"
Spoiler for Hiden:
Quote from: "MusashiAA"
Ahem...INFINITE FLIGHT?! WHAT KIND OF A BRAIN DEAD DEVELOPER GIVES A PLAYER INFINITE FLIGHT TO A CLASS IN A TEAM-BASED MOD?!
astroman

You damn well know better than anybody that Astroman has flight limitations. Astroman wishes that he could fly like the free bird that is Cacodemon.

Quote from: "Korby"
Quote from: "MusashiAA"
Choke: Grab Sjas' already OP mainfire, and give it a faster RoF PLUS TWO medium range 1HKO attacks, while keeping the same movement speed and removing flight. That's Choke. OK, let's see:

NERFS: Reduce the ripper melee attack so it does 75 damage tops and for God's sake, reduce the rate of fire by 30%. Nerf the Blood Ball shot to do 90 damage, nerf the blood puke attack to not 1HKO on a single spew.

two mid-range ohkos

what the heck are you talking about

choke's blood vomit is only "useful" close range, and even then, it's just so you can run away and not die from things. you basically have to be right next to choke for that thing to kill anything, and if you're right next to choke, you're doing it wrong.

blood ball is hard to aim, and if you're hit up close, again, you got too close to a ghoul and it's your fault.



do keep in mind my posts are usually my thoughts and not the developer's

Yeah, there was all of that. Blood ball is hard to aim, and you're forced to stop for it to charge. It is still a very good projectile weapon for a class with a theme that involves mostly very powerful melee attacks. Blood vomit is medium range in the sense that, as Choke, close range is the range his mainfire attack can cover...which isn't much. But yeah, I give you those.

But not fucking Astroman, come on, I swear to God you better be messing with me.

November 03, 2012, 08:30:58 AM
Reply #42

Offline Ivory

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It's like Kappak all over again.
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2012, 08:30:58 AM »
I should mention that (one of the many) the biggest flaw with this mod is that where the real GvH is played on with its own mappack which is tailored to its gameplay, MM8BDM maps are in no way designed with this in mind. So yes, Sjas having infinite flight is problematic here.

But I will say this. I still don't like this mod. I'll take the real GvH over this any day. Mega asked me for help a long time ago, and it absolutely annoys me to see problems I mentioned almost a year ago STILL exist.
Basically, this entire mod takes the balance of GvH, and throws it away without any regard. What's left this horrible mess that puts a shame to the GvH name. Except that Nordic Saga is still exists. But this is pretty darn awful.

November 03, 2012, 08:35:48 AM
Reply #43

Offline SmashBroPlusB

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #43 on: November 03, 2012, 08:35:48 AM »
way to piss on everyone's parade Ivory


yes balance problems exist
yes Sjas can go suck on a lemon
but does EVERYTHING need to be changed
and why does Mush want the Humans to have all dem nerfs


I'm working on a (somewhat lengthy) post with lots of smart guy details so wait for that

November 03, 2012, 08:47:48 AM
Reply #44

Offline Ivory

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Re: Ghouls vs Humans NES
« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2012, 08:47:48 AM »
Oh, I'm sorry for not finding this to be amazing like everyone else Smashbro. I didn't realize that it was mandatory to have to like it. But you know, a good whack of these balance problems like Choke and his invulnerability frames was crap I already mentioned like a year ago. And they still exist today. Then they get complained about during the actual release.

This is exactly what happened in Kappak. Kapus asked for my feedback. I gave it. He barely acted on anything I said when it got released, everyone was complaining about the things I brought up. I must be the Cassandra of feedback or something. I don't really have too much to say that hasn't already been mentioned in this thread already. So I'll leave it at that.

I would also appreciate if you would stop trying to call me out on every possible opportunity Smashbro. I know pretty damn well if anyone else had said this, you would have been far less likely to call the person out like you just did.