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Author Topic: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball  (Read 3156 times)

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December 15, 2014, 05:27:33 PM
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Offline King Dumb

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["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« on: December 15, 2014, 05:27:33 PM »
(@Mess, Copy, and Dev Team: As a note, these are only going to get more numerous and less clear-cut as the days go on, so if there's a better medium to do this please let me know. Personally I don't like discussing things like balance publicly except when it's very necessary. This case is slightly different because I don't consider this a balance issue as much as I consider it something broken that needs to be fixed.)

So if you play MM8BDM, you've probably (hopefully) noticed Mega Ball OHKOing people. Contrary to what some believe, this is actually not random. Michael and I did some testing in a server and lot of digging through source code, and we concluded that it has to do with hitting players in such a way that the collision is detected in a certain way (and then bouncing comes into play). Not only that, but after lots of testing we knew pretty much exactly where to hit players to cause this to happen. Note that, at the moment, I am purposely being vague, because I don't want to join servers today and just to see everyone OHKOing with Mega Ball. If you want more details on this I'd be happy to provide via PM.

I've heard arguments that since this OHKO potential adds depth and "fun" to Mega Ball, it shouldn't be removed. My response is that while this may add depth to Mega Ball, it can only remove depth from gameplay overall because once I master Mega Ball I don't have to use anything else. Also, there are plenty of ways to make the game "fun" for everyone, whereas this is "fun" for the Mega Ball user and "not fun" for any victims of this OHKO.

As for suggested fixes, I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of preserving functionality. I only briefly spoke to Lego about this a few months ago(?) and he had some doubts about trying to replicate the bouncing off of players without actually using the bouncing property (which would solve the problem, I think). That's part of why I'm posting this publicly, because I want to see what other people suggest. Of course, I think getting rid of the OHKO is worth removing the bounce off of players entirely, but I know there are many who do not share that view. Options would be to kill the projectile once it hits a player, or to make it a ripper*. The point is that unless you can replicate the bouncing (on players) without using the bounce property, this issue is engine-based.

In addition to all of this, I was talking with Zhade and he suggested a mechanic where holding fire would cause you to automatically kick the ball after it's placed, instead of having to (awkwardly sometimes, I might add) run into it. I think this would be a good addition to this weapon (but it would also make OHKOing even easier).

*pls no

EDIT: Oh I forgot to mention, through similar peculiarities in the collision code, sometimes Mega Ball will connect and do no damage whatsoever!

December 15, 2014, 05:37:43 PM
Reply #1

Offline Ceridran

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2014, 05:37:43 PM »
Quote from: "King Dumb"
As for suggested fixes, I'm afraid I don't have much in the way of preserving functionality. I only briefly spoke to Lego about this a few months ago(?) and he had some doubts about trying to replicate the bouncing off of players without actually using the bouncing property (which would solve the problem, I think). That's part of why I'm posting this publicly, because I want to see what other people suggest. Of course, I think getting rid of the OHKO is worth removing the bounce off of players entirely, but I know there are many who do not share that view. Options would be to kill the projectile once it hits a player, or to make it a ripper*. The point is that unless you can replicate the bouncing (on players) without using the bounce property, this issue is engine-based.

Would a knockback effect on the player that was hit by the Mega Ball prevent this, or make it even easier?

Quote from: "King Dumb"
In addition to all of this, I was talking with Zhade and he suggested a mechanic where holding fire would cause you to automatically kick the ball after it's placed, instead of having to (awkwardly sometimes, I might add) run into it. I think this would be a good addition to this weapon (but it would also make OHKOing even easier).

Please. Mega Ball is such an interesting weapon but using it is so weird with how it is currently used.

December 15, 2014, 05:52:54 PM
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Offline King Dumb

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2014, 05:52:54 PM »
Quote
Would a knockback effect on the player that was hit by the Mega Ball prevent this, or make it even easier?
At first this sounded somewhat appealing, but then I thought about it more and no, I don't think it would help too much. Aside from being a pretty cumbersome thing to deal with in a game, the knockback (assuming you mean knockback in the direction the ball was moving) could actually get messed up for the same reasons the OHKOs occur. If you meant simple recoil, then that would make matters worse depending on where someone was hit with the Mega Ball.

Of course, this is all speculation, and while I'm confident in this answer, someone more adept at coding than I could make a sample and see what happens. If anyone does that (for this concept or any other), just PM me so we can talk about testing for OHKOability.

December 15, 2014, 08:10:29 PM
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Offline SmashTheEchidna

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2014, 08:10:29 PM »
What about having the Mega Ball be destroyed upon contact with a player, while spawning another ball that shoots away from them in order to prevent multi-hits?

On second thought, I can already see a number of problems coming from this idea, and it might end up being too convoluted to code without bugs.

December 15, 2014, 11:31:58 PM
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Offline Bikdark

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2014, 11:31:58 PM »
There are two conflicting factors that make Megaball an issue: canon and the general integrity of an arena shooter. Canon states that Megaman needs to lay down a ball, run into it (or jump on it), and it'll fly in whichever direction, possibly hitting an enemy. FPS games don't tend to like seemingly random movement (bouncy bouncy) or damage (XD I OHKO U IM SKILL).

To fix Megaball to make it suitable for an FPS environment, you'll have to give up some game accuracy in favor of making the weapon more reliable, less clunky, and giving it more counterplay. This could include drastically changing how bounce mechanics work in comparison to MM8, or completely removing the ball-spawning mechanic.

Or you could just nerf it into oblivion so that no one ever complains about it ever again, but that's just me. :^)

December 16, 2014, 12:25:35 AM
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Offline fortegigasgospel

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2014, 12:25:35 AM »
Well, in Megaman 8 the Megaball went through enemies (after kicked) if I remember correctly, I know it goes through the one boss. That or that was the only enemy it did go through and it just went away after hitting anything else.

December 16, 2014, 01:55:09 AM
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Offline Lego

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2014, 01:55:09 AM »
Actually, I might have an idea...
The ball gets stuck, right? Like, it completely loses all of its momentum upon hitting the player's collision just right?

If this is true, why not preserve the current functionality, but make it so if the ball falls below a certain momentum on all axes, it just dies. An additional thing that could be done is making the player immune to Mega Ball damage for a very short period after getting struck. I'm talking one to two tics, enough time for the momentum check to go through.

Alternatively, make the ball die after a single bounce using the heretic bounce type, then transfer its momentum to a separate projectile, up to a cap of however many bounces is has at the moment.

On the point of the ball doing no damage on impact...I unfortunately can't think of a good fix for that off hand.

December 16, 2014, 03:16:37 AM
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Offline Magnet Dood

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2014, 03:16:37 AM »
How about the ball just dies when it hits someone once :/

December 16, 2014, 03:17:28 AM
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Offline Messatsu

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2014, 03:17:28 AM »
Some good ideas at play here that need more testing I think.  Only problem with the heretic bounce is that, last I knew, you can't spawn a bouncing projectile from another one without causing desync problems.  Given how close v4b is to completion, I would expect a fix in the next version based on what we find works best.

December 16, 2014, 07:10:40 PM
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Offline Fyone

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2014, 07:10:40 PM »
Quote from: "Bikdark"
Canon states that Megaman needs to lay down a ball, run into it (or jump on it), and it'll fly in whichever direction, possibly hitting an enemy. FPS games don't tend to like seemingly random movement (bouncy bouncy) or damage (XD I OHKO U IM SKILL).
Quote from: "fortegigasgospel"
Well, in Megaman 8 the Megaball went through enemies (after kicked) if I remember correctly, I know it goes through the one boss. That or that was the only enemy it did go through and it just went away after hitting anything else.
Just to let y'all know, the canon Megaball is a ripper and when you place the Megaball down your attack is a kick that doesn't do damage but if you're near the ball you kick it. If you jump on the Megaball it'll destroy and you'll be sprung up. (Not saying you have to or should do this, just clarifying how it worked in game.)

December 16, 2014, 09:38:15 PM
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Offline King Dumb

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2014, 09:38:15 PM »
Quote
If this is true, why not preserve the current functionality, but make it so if the ball falls below a certain momentum on all axes, it just dies. An additional thing that could be done is making the player immune to Mega Ball damage for a very short period after getting struck. I'm talking one to two tics, enough time for the momentum check to go through.

The Mega Ball will not lose all momentum - it will actually get stuck inside of you and continue bouncing. Nonetheless, I think this idea will still work. I've talked to Messatsu on the specifics of the OHKO and hopefully testing will begin on things like this.

March 21, 2017, 05:26:37 PM
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Offline CutmanMike

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Re: ["Bug"/Suggestion] Alterations to Mega Ball
« Reply #11 on: March 21, 2017, 05:26:37 PM »
Fixed. I've made it so upon impact with an actor it will ignore collision with other actors for 5 tics and also be forced back into it's original velocity (40 speed) so it should be nigh impossible to get it stuck in a player unless they're locked in a box with it somehow.