Justified Classes v4b Beta 14

[Trillster]

So recently the MM8BDM Discord shameless plug has been discussing their issues and complaints with JC, and I figured I might as well try to sum all them up here. This is going to probably be quite a hefty post so I'm just going to split it up into different spoiler boxes in order of most to least important.

Flow:

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This here is the biggest issue that most people have with Justified Classes, complaints of clunky game-play and the pace being too slow. To fully understand this issue, I've broken it down a bit. I think this clunky game-play is caused by three main things, attacks that stop, attacks that slow, and a poor ammo system. I'll elaborate on this ammo system and why it doesn't work in Ammo Management, so for now let's focus on the other two. A lot of classes in Justified Classes suffer from the issue of being stopped or slowed while attacking. Star Man's got it, Cloud Man is mostly a sitting target from it, and even the pyromaniac Burner Man isn't even safe from the issue. To understand the sheer number of classes that suffer from this issue in comparison to YD Classes, I'm just going to copy Jax's list from the previous post.      

Stops
YD Classes:
Guts
Magnet
Hard
Bright
Toad
Stone
Napalm
Blizzard
Freeze
Cloud
Spring
Turbo
Astro
Ground
Magma
Burner
Hyper Storm H
Enker
Punk
Quint

Justified:
Elec
Guts
Time
Enker
Heat
Flash
Quint
DocRobot
Hard
Top
Magnet
Needle
Buster Rod G
Punk
Skull
Dive
Drill
Toad
Crystal
Stone
Mercury
Uranus
Centaur
Wind
Cloud
Turbo
Duo
Clown
Frost
Sword
Ground
Burner

Slows (No Stops)
YD Classes:
Needle
Dynamo

Justified:
Bomb
Wood
Bright
Wave
Star
Venus
Jupiter
Saturn
Flame
Blizzard
Spring
Grenade
Pirate
Dynamo
King

So uh, obviously that's an issue. To elaborate, no player wants to be slowed down especially in the heat of combat. Being halted to a stop just makes you feel like a sitting duck getting pelted at while you're doing your attack. It becomes less of a game in those short moments and becomes more of an animation that you're just watching. Although that may seem like a bit of an exaggeration, constantly being stopped just to occasionally hold down a button then release it only to be frozen in place once again is not engaging game-play. That's what most classes such as Duo boil down to. Not only does this make playing certain characters feel non-engaging to play, but it makes actual combat feel awkward whenever both players are being constantly stopped. It creates a stop, go, stop, go type of flow, meaning at times both players are just sitting there staring at each other while doing nothing. Certain things stopping the player like King changing form is entirely understandable but some attacks are just made way more awkward than they should be such as Burner Man's Bear Traps.  To wrap up Flow here, I'd suggest removing some of the unnecessary stops and slows, keep stuff like Guts Man picking up a Guts Rock but definitely remove the stops of Burner Man's Bear Traps.

Ammo Management:

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Looks like Jax beat me to the punch on this one but I'd still like to expand on this point. Feel free to consider this a continuation of Flow as all of this does contribute to why Justified Classes can feel clunky at times. I'd like to start this segment with just another comparison list, once again copied from Jax's previous post. These are all of the classes that have attacks that require a full ammo bar.

YD Classes:
Wily
Fire
Time
Quick
Flash
Hard
Bright
Skull
Gravity
Blizzard
Flame
Knight
Freeze
Cold
Pirate
Punk

Justified:
Cut
Elec
Ice
Fire
Bomb
Oil
Time
Heat
Flash
Quick
Hard
Hyper Storm H
Mega Water S
Buster Rod G
Punk
Skull
Bright
Charge
Darkman3
Mercury
Terra
Uranus
Neptune
Centaur
Blizzard
Freeze
Burst
Junk
Slash
Clown
Grenade
Sword
Astro
Tengu
Ground
Pirate
Burner
Cold
King

Now, you may be thinking, why exactly is this relevant or an issue? It's not an issue on its own, but rather it stands out more because of the "ammo-lock" Jax mentioned before. This ammo-lock is caused by attacking or just holding alt-fire when not at full ammo, causing all ammo regeneration to stop. Because this exists, whether intentionally or not, there's no actual incentive to stay in combat once you're out of ammo. This means at any time, someone will just run away because they can't restore ammo and fight at the same time. With certain characters already being difficult to kill with such as Hyper Storm H, this really makes the game feel slow and tedious. It's a simple fix though, I'd just suggest removing this ammo lock and letting classes restore alt-fire ammo without needing to stop firing entirely.

Class Diversity:

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This is a pretty simple one, which could possibly tie in with Canonity. Put simply, most classes have very similar attacks or are just a buster with an extra attack. Some examples of classes seeming similar include Jupiter and Shade Man, Guts Man and Uranus, and Drill Man and Ground Man. Both following canon and just robot masters being similar could be causing this, but I would suggest making classes feel a bit more distinct. Giving Shade Man the ability to pick people up was a step in the right direction for making his swoop different from Jupiter, but they're still rather similar as are many classes.

Canonity:

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Next, you're going to say "But wait, JC's whole idea is to follow canon as close as possible!" On a serious note though, even though you guys do twist canon to make certain classes better, there's some spots where you fail at that. Bringing up Burner Man's Bear Traps again, in the canon battle he jumps into the sky to lay them everywhere, and he follows this exact pattern in JC as well. Although it looks hilarious and silly to see Burner Man suddenly fly high into the sky (or spikes if you're that unlucky guy in MM2BUB), it doesn't really work that well in an FPS. I guess my suggestion for this one would just let class movement's be a bit more free to the player, not forcing players upwards just because the boss jumped in that one boss fight. I'll say I'm pretty glad that Guts Man can actually walk though. Feel free to completely also shrug this off though, because after all, JC's goal is to follow canon.

Chances are I missed a few things and could've worded certain sections better so if anyone else wants to, feel free to expand on this huge post of mine.

[RageBurner]

I'm not part of the dev team for JC, but I'd like to pitch in on this saying that I agree with Sonicfam1122 especially on the issue of ammo management. It can be frustrating to run out of juice at the worst possible time, and even though I don't play online, this issue is even more apparent when fighting bots since they don't bother with ammo limits.

On the point of class similarity I'm less inclined to see it as a problem outright: the way I see it, JC is not team based focused, and while archetypes exist (Burner Man is a striker, Frost Man would be a tank), team roles shouldn't be enforced, and classes shouldn't be changed outside of something they could conceivably do. While canonicity and gameplay are both important, both need to walk hand in hand (in other words, classes shouldn't be different just for the sake of being different, or to fill a perceived team role that would be lacking otherwise).

Also, it is not always that canon drives similarity, but the class styles. A good example is Slash Man: in canon, he is modeled after Pluto, but both play nothing alike besides the focus on agility and positioning. What I'm trying to say is that following canon doesn't necessarily make for boring classes.

Lastly, I do agree enforced pauses can be problematic. Perhaps a few invincibility frames could be awarded on these cases (Burner Man is actually my main, so I know how costly a misplaced trap can be. Forest Diver also exposes him a lot due to having a similarly high positioning.

[RageBurner]

Bass have a bug.when i use pluto or jupiter fought with bass of the other player.i was shot  by bass buster and died  at that time the game window close quickly and the server shut down.sometimes when i nearly die and bass shot me and hit me can also make that bug appeared.i do not know that whether  other character was killed by bass can make the bug appear again...Hope it can be fixed……

Hm... I tried, but I couldn't reproduce this, even with a server filled with Bass bots, or a player controlling Bass killing me (on LAN at least).

[Zeroprime]

Bass have a bug.when i use pluto or jupiter fought with bass of the other player.i was shot  by bass buster and died  at that time the game window close quickly and the server shut down.sometimes when i nearly die and bass shot me and hit me can also make that bug appeared.i do not know that whether  other character was killed by bass can make the bug appear again...Hope it can be fixed……

Hm... I tried, but I couldn't reproduce this, even with a server filled with Bass bots, or a player controlling Bass killing me (on LAN at least).

Er......i try it again.in a word ,i found that if someone use bass,megaman or protoman and kill one of the bosses from megaman world 5 ?boss can be a bot or be controlled by player) the game or the game with server and the server will close itself……but if one of bass,megaman,and protoman is bot and kill the bosses from megaman world 5 (boss can be a bot or  controlled by someone). that error will not appear.the game can work normally.

[Fyone]

@Sonicfam1102

In response to a lot of classes stopping when using their attacks, we have seen some players complain about this issue and thus we have tried to cut down on some of these classes that stop when using their attacks in v3e. I assume you did not update your list to the most recent version but some examples of these include Crystalman, Starman, and Swordman where they no longer stop when using their class-specific aerial attacks. And for example you listed Springman under slows however he is no longer slowed when firing his Spring Punch but is instead stopped due to the recent improvements to the move as a whole.

It is hard for me personally to pinpoint which classes you would like to see stopping removed on so it would really help if you could post what classes you would like to see the stop removed on rather than all classes that stop when attacking since this really only helps very little on actually fixing the problem. From what you named I like the idea of Burnerman no longer stopping when setting up his traps or Slashman and will definitely make this change for next version. I also could see us lowering how long Gutsman stops to ready his Super Arm.

In terms of a lot of classes slowing down when using their attacks we decided to take this approach rather than just lowering the base movement speed to a specific amount akin to YD. We felt this would help the classes as a whole in combat because instead of being easily kited by faster classes they can somewhat hold up rather than giving them a whole bunch of armour to compensate. However one thing we could do is maybe make the classes who have slows not slow as much if this really comes down to be a big issue. We could for example make Gutsman only slow down to the base movement speed value of YD Gutsman and maybe we could do this for all the classes with slows that work similar to Gutsman.

As for the 'ammo-lock' thing you mentioned, we felt that this wasn't very detrimental to gameplay at least in our point of view and therefore balanced a lot classes with it in the past. We have it so that some classes get their normal ammo regeneration rate when they attack, some at a decreased rate, and some with no gain at all. If you find that this really ruins the flow we could have it so that all attacks regain their ammo at a normal rate while holding fire however we compensate by nerfing a lot of the attacks in various ways. For example, either lowering ammo regeneration rate as a whole for some classes that have this or nerfing the attacks themselves mostly the former though. So I can see us doing this for the next version.

As for class diversity, I'm gonna assume based on your previous lists that you haven't played v3e to its entirety. Because right now every class is very diverse in how their moves are used and the type of different moves each class has. This is again where a generalization helps very little if at all. From the examples you gave me Drillman and Groundman's only similarity is that they both dig at least from what I can perceive. Shademan and Jupiter only share their swoop (which like you said work differently to begin with) and flight. Gutsman and Uranus only both share moves with start ups. I see that you like to compare YD and Justified Classes with a lot of these but if you look at YD they have many classes which have similar mechanics that are shared between classes like Drillman and Groundman as you said, Megaman and Protoman, Gyroman and Windman, and many more.

If you want classes made more unique or improved please post in this thread with the ideas and suggestions that you want to see happen so we can put them into fruition instead of just posting some generalized opinion because we can't make changes if we don't know what you want. Post the resolution that you want to see happen instead of just posting the problem!

In terms of canon we try to include all or close to all the moves that the class had in their original game and then build upon it to make the class fun and entertaining by a gameplay standpoint. If you had brought up for example Burnerman as a suggestion in the past I would have seen your complaint and fixed it accordingly but if you don't post we can only do what we see fit.

I really appreciate these suggestions guys and I hope more suggestions can be given so we can make this mod even better!

EDIT: @Zeroprime I'll look into that bug and try my best to fix it, thanks!

[RageBurner]

In terms of a lot of classes slowing down when using their attacks we decided to take this approach rather than just lowering the base movement...

Personally I agree with this. In a game as frantic as MM8BDM having low base movement is dire, hence why
staying in motion whenever possible is a must. After playing Burner Man on the new version I felt the reduced base speed
wasn't as bad as I thought it would be, so I guess it is worthwhile to be able to use Forest Diver without self-stun.

As for the relative slowdown of attacks, it wouldn't make much sense to make them uniform, IMO, although "heavies" do suffer a lot, their masses are far from the same (Hard Man has a much heavier body than Stone Man, and Stone Man is probably actually a little lighter than Dive Man despite their height difference, at least that's the impression I get.

We compensate by nerfing a lot of the attacks in various ways. For example, either lowering ammo regeneration rate as a whole for some classes that have this or nerfing the attacks themselves mostly the former though. So I can see us doing this for the next version.

I'm against nerfing power in general, except in a few glaring cases, such as Aqua Man's water cannon (I'm not sure if it's a ripper or not, but maybe the duration or reach of the water stream could stand to be reduced.

[Trillster]

I'd like to start off this post by actually quoting Jax here, not sure if you saw this as you didn't acknowledge these bugs. This post is also where those two lists came from, which I believe were made before v3e so I apologize for that.

Bug: performing Astro Crush once allows Astro Man to perform Astro Crush at any ammo level.
Bug: was able to move a MM1FIR pillar somehow. Still trying to determine cause...

Suggestion: Prevent "ammo lock"- holding main or altfire to do nothing and stop ammo gain.
(Example: Holding alt with FireMan in CBM will have him still gain ammo and do his overdrive asap. Holding alt with FireMan in Justi will stop his ammo gain, you would never want this.)
CBM has had this for a while. All ammo-locks do is enforce execution skill in an online fps prone to lag and desync.

Some class property lists I made (don't get too caught up in semantics and if everything is right):

(click to show/hide)

Classes that stop when performing an action:

YD
Guts
Magnet
Hard
Bright
Toad
Stone
Napalm
Blizzard
Freeze
Cloud
Spring
Turbo
Astro
Ground
Magma
Burner
Hyper Storm H
Enker
Punk
Quint

Justi
Elec
Guts
Time
Enker
Heat
Flash
Quint
DocRobot
Hard
Top
Magnet
Needle
Buster Rod G
Punk
Skull
Dive
Drill
Toad
Crystal
Stone
Mercury
Uranus
Centaur
Wind
Cloud
Turbo
Duo
Clown
Frost
Sword
Ground
Burner

Classes that slow when performing an action (and not in Stop):

YD
Needle
Dynamo

Justi
Bomb
Wood
Bright
Wave
star
Venus
Jupiter
Saturn
Flame
Blizzard
Spring
Grenade
Pirate
Dynamo
King

(click to show/hide)

Classes possessing an overdrive
Requiring and using a full bar for a single action

YD
Wily
Fire
Time
Quick
Flash
Hard
Bright
Skull
Gravity
Blizzard
Flame
Knight
Freeze
Cold
Pirate
Punk

justi
Cut
Elec
Ice
Fire
Bomb
Oil
Time
Heat
Flash
Quick
Hard
Hyper Storm H
Mega Water S
Buster Rod G
Punk
Skull
Bright
Charge
Darkman3
Mercury
Terra
Uranus
Neptune
Centaur
Blizzard
Freeze
Burst
Junk
Slash
Clown
Grenade
Sword
Astro
Tengu
Ground
Pirate
Burner
Cold
King

(click to show/hide)

Justi classes that avoid "ammo lock"
Classes without timed ammo regen
Mega
Proto
Bass
Rock
Roll
Sniper Joe
Toad
Darkman1
Darkman2
Darkman4
Knight
Frost
Dynamo
Magic

Classes with timed ammo regen
Time
Bubble
Gemini
Mega Water S
Bright
Darkman3
Jupiter
Uranus
Yamato
Cloud
Duo

Anyway, with that over, I'd also like to say that my last post was made from the complaints of a ~50 person Discord server, meaning many different opinions of what should be changed and what shouldn't be changed. In fact, I invite you to join it so that you can hear everyone's opinion and reply instantly for quicker discussion Found right here. I swear this isn't meant to be just a shameless plug. With that being said though, I will post my own opinions here on what classes should be changed in regard to slowing and stopping attacks.

Heat Man:

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I'd change Heat Man's Heat Tackle charge to a simple slow, for how long it takes to charge it, he's REALLY a sitting target. Even with that high armor, it leaves him a complete victim to ripping attacks like Frost Man's deadly punch.

Flash Man:

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Pretty simple one, whenever Flash Man is preparing for a time skip (I have no idea what it's actually called so I'll just be calling it this) it halts him completely, which is sort of counter-productive for teleporting elsewhere, it also makes it quite obvious that you will be teleporting if you're not fast enough. I'd say either slow him or just keep full speed.

Needle Man:

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This might just be missing the point of his grapple, but if his grapple is meant to make Needle faster in general as a class, having it stop him beforehand isn't really helping. Possibly just slowing Needle so he's able to get momentum into his grapple so that it's more of a Thunder Claw swing would be better for this.

Snake Man: (Not a stop/slow suggestion but just a bug I found, woops)

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So this is actually not a suggestion but rather a simple bug, using his jump-variation alt-fire directly into a corner has some weird results.

Napalm Man:

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I wouldn't really call this one a forced stop/slow but rather a control-lock. Why have Napalm Man be forced to go straight forward with his rocket jump? I think it possibly might be more interesting if he went in the direction he was holding, or straight up if nothing.

Venus:

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I honestly just don't see why Venus's alt-fire stops him, it's more so just an unnecessary thing that hinders him.

Cloud Man:

(click to show/hide)

Another simple one, have Cloud Man get slowed while firing, not entirely stopped. Needing to stop every time you fire just feels super awkward.

Duo:

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Not exactly a stop/slow suggestion but a suggestion in general, if Duo is aiming low near his feet, make it do his shock-wave attack in place. It's just a convenience thing, rather than just flying around locked in place like an idiot.

Grenade Man:

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I see Grenade Man's Crazy Destroyer as a desperation attack to get people off of him in a pinch... so why does it stop him in place so he's just an easier target? Slow-down for this one.

Burner Man:

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I already mentioned Burner Man's Bear Traps stopping him in my last post, but I do want to say I think it shouldn't hinder his movement at all. Keeping Burner Man locked in that same place really kills its effectiveness as a "get off me" move whenever he'll just fall down to the same spot where everyone is waiting for him.

[Fyone]

Sorry I did read JaxOf7's post but completely forgot to mention it in my post since I had to leave to do something when I was in the middle of writing, my mistake I'll fix those bugs thanks! (Not sure about the MM1FIR pillar one though.)

Also I prefer to just respond to any suggestions here rather than on a chat since it's personally much easier for me, I hope you understand.

All of your suggestions sound great though so I'll try my best to implement all of them, thanks for your suggestions SonicFam1102!

[Zeroprime]

@Sonicfam1102

In response to a lot of classes stopping when using their attacks, we have seen some players complain about this issue and thus we have tried to cut down on some of these classes that stop when using their attacks in v3e. I assume you did not update your list to the most recent version but some examples of these include Crystalman, Starman, and Swordman where they no longer stop when using their class-specific aerial attacks. And for example you listed Springman under slows however he is no longer slowed when firing his Spring Punch but is instead stopped due to the recent improvements to the move as a whole.

It is hard for me personally to pinpoint which classes you would like to see stopping removed on so it would really help if you could post what classes you would like to see the stop removed on rather than all classes that stop when attacking since this really only helps very little on actually fixing the problem. From what you named I like the idea of Burnerman no longer stopping when setting up his traps or Slashman and will definitely make this change for next version. I also could see us lowering how long Gutsman stops to ready his Super Arm.

In terms of a lot of classes slowing down when using their attacks we decided to take this approach rather than just lowering the base movement speed to a specific amount akin to YD. We felt this would help the classes as a whole in combat because instead of being easily kited by faster classes they can somewhat hold up rather than giving them a whole bunch of armour to compensate. However one thing we could do is maybe make the classes who have slows not slow as much if this really comes down to be a big issue. We could for example make Gutsman only slow down to the base movement speed value of YD Gutsman and maybe we could do this for all the classes with slows that work similar to Gutsman.

As for the 'ammo-lock' thing you mentioned, we felt that this wasn't very detrimental to gameplay at least in our point of view and therefore balanced a lot classes with it in the past. We have it so that some classes get their normal ammo regeneration rate when they attack, some at a decreased rate, and some with no gain at all. If you find that this really ruins the flow we could have it so that all attacks regain their ammo at a normal rate while holding fire however we compensate by nerfing a lot of the attacks in various ways. For example, either lowering ammo regeneration rate as a whole for some classes that have this or nerfing the attacks themselves mostly the former though. So I can see us doing this for the next version.

As for class diversity, I'm gonna assume based on your previous lists that you haven't played v3e to its entirety. Because right now every class is very diverse in how their moves are used and the type of different moves each class has. This is again where a generalization helps very little if at all. From the examples you gave me Drillman and Groundman's only similarity is that they both dig at least from what I can perceive. Shademan and Jupiter only share their swoop (which like you said work differently to begin with) and flight. Gutsman and Uranus only both share moves with start ups. I see that you like to compare YD and Justified Classes with a lot of these but if you look at YD they have many classes which have similar mechanics that are shared between classes like Drillman and Groundman as you said, Megaman and Protoman, Gyroman and Windman, and many more.

If you want classes made more unique or improved please post in this thread with the ideas and suggestions that you want to see happen so we can put them into fruition instead of just posting some generalized opinion because we can't make changes if we don't know what you want. Post the resolution that you want to see happen instead of just posting the problem!

In terms of canon we try to include all or close to all the moves that the class had in their original game and then build upon it to make the class fun and entertaining by a gameplay standpoint. If you had brought up for example Burnerman as a suggestion in the past I would have seen your complaint and fixed it accordingly but if you don't post we can only do what we see fit.

I really appreciate these suggestions guys and I hope more suggestions can be given so we can make this mod even better!

EDIT: @Zeroprime I'll look into that bug and try my best to fix it, thanks!

You're welcome! It is my honor to do that.Thanks for your hard work! I really like it!

[RageBurner]

I'm a bit confused about Mercury's new mechanics. Sometimes I snap to another location, and I can't pin down exactly what it's all about.

Also, can we maybe get some sort of info on what kinds of robot masters give Sniper Joe which weapons?

I don't know about Joe, but as far as I've tested with Mercury, if you manage to score hits with at least two mercury blobs, then you can move to a new location yourself while you reform. Otherwise all four blobs will coalesce in one place and the camera will snap before Mercury's body reforms.

[RageBurner]

By the way, there is something I'd like to suggest about Pirate Man. The way remote mines are controlled and detonated feels awkward, at least to me. Instead of holding mainfire to keep it flying and letting go for it to attach (pressing it and again to explode), it should work more like the copywep variants (fire, let it fly on its own, it attaches, then fire again to detonate).

[Fyone]

Pirateman's Remote Mines are done like that so that you can stop it in mid air easier (copywep Remote Mines cannot be stopped in midair), I've heard from a lot of people they preferred hold and release as opposed to double click when it comes to detonation in mid air (Dustman, Drillman, and Gyroman all follow this) but if more people presently prefer double click I have no problem with swapping it.

Also, can we maybe get some sort of info on what kinds of robot masters give Sniper Joe which weapons?

Here is a rough list:

(click to show/hide)

Sniper joe assigned weapons:
Megaman: electric
Protoman: crystal
Bass: gun
Rock: bone
Roll: bone
Auto: grenade
Sniperjoe: gun
Cutman: bone
Elecman: electric
Iceman: crystal
Fireman: gun
Bombman: grenade
Gutsman: hammer
Oilman: bone
Timeman: crystal
Enker: crystal
Metalman: bone
Bubbleman: gun
Heatman: electric
Woodman: crystal
Airman: hammer
Crashman: grenade
Flashman: gun
Quickman: bone
Docrobot: gun
Quint: hammer
Hardman: hammer
Topman: hammer
Shadowman: bone
Sparkman: electric
Magnetman: grenade
Snakeman: bone
Geminiman: crystal
Needleman: gun
Busterrod: bone
Megawater: crystal
Hyperstorm: hammer
Punk: bone
Pharoahman: electric
Ringman: bone
Dustman: crystal
Skullman: bone
Diveman: hammer
Drillman: grenade
Toadman: gun
Brightman: electric
Ballade: grenade
Gravityman: electric
Gyroman: hammer
Crystalman: crystal
Napalmman: grenade
Stoneman: hammer
Chargeman: gun
Waveman: bone
Starman: crystal
Darkman4: electric
Darkman3: gun
Darkman2: crystal
Darkman1: hammer
Mercury: crystal
Venus: grenade
Terra: bone
Mars: gun
Jupiter: electric
Saturn: hammer
Uranus: hammer
Neptune: grenade
Pluto: bone
Knightman: hammer
Centaurman: electric
Windman: hammer
Flameman: grenade
Blizzardman: crystal
Plantman: crystal
Tomahawkman: bone
Yamatoman: gun
Freezeman: crystal
Burstman: grenade
Cloudman: electric
Junkman: hammer
Slashman: bone
Springman: bone
Shademan: electric
Turboman: gun
Duo: hammer
Clownman: electric
Grenademan: grenade
Frostman: crystal
Swordman: hammer
Searchman: gun
Aquaman: gun
Astroman: electric
Tenguman: bone
Groundman: hammer
Pirateman: grenade
Burnerman: gun
Coldman: crystal
Dynamoman: electric
Magicman: bone
King: bone

[RageBurner]

I have a question not directly related to the mod, but that I feel is worth asking: it seems the wiki for MM8BDM is no longer maintained and that includes the article about JC. Will there be a different repository of information for JC classes and strategy?

Also, I believe someone mentioned before that Snake Man gets stuck when jumping into corners. Uranus does also, when using altfire.

Another thing I noticed: In Gemini Man's stage, every time Proto Man dies, a  completely immobile Proto Man that does nothing and stays stuck in place. It seems to happen every time and many "Proto Ghosts" get created. I don't know if this happens in other maps where Proto Man spawns yet. I have a screenshot if needed.

Edit: the "Proto Ghosts happen on any map Proto Man is present, it seems, at least to me, and don't happen if the game is played without the mod active.

[RageBurner]

I've been considering a few thoughts on some of the robot masters that I'd like to share:

Crash Man

(click to show/hide)

First, and most importantly, his jump height has been probably nerfed a bit too much considering how high he jumps in MM2 (half a screen of height). I see two solutions for this:

1) Make his jump adjustable - the longer you hold the jump button the higher he goes. If this approach is used,
an ammo bar could be tied to his jumping for balance.

2) Make his high jump an item, even if it takes a while to regenerate.

In a sprite montage I made for reference, I'd say Crash Man can jump about as high as 4 Mega Men piled on top of each other.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiAf4eOFaXU

Secondly, his armor is probably of the semi-strong class (but not higher) according to here:

http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Crash_Man

That said, the armor is said to be designed to withstand explosions, so maybe buff his defense a bit against other bomb users, primarily?

Aqua Man:

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I probably mentioned this before, but his Water Cannon is way too damaging for what it is. I can understand Water Wave being a ripper weapon due to pressure and speed, but Water Cannon is none of that.

Gyro Man:

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Flyers seem to have gotten the short end of the stick, and Gyro Man more than any other flyer, I feel.
Since he depends so much on his mobility to survive (and Gyro Attack isn't anything to write home about) he probably deserves a secondary bar for flight, at least, like Tengu Man has.

Turbo Man:

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I find the firing mechanic of the Scorch Wheel to be unnecessarily awkward since I'm forced to time my charges. Scorch Wheel does no hugging damage (and that is fine), so wouldn't it be okay for me to be able to hold a charged wheel for as long as I need to before releasing it?

Centaur Man:

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The galloping noise is honestly quite bothersome over long periods of time for whoever is using the class. Is it possible to mute the gallop sound for the user? (other players should still be able to hear it fine of course).

That's all I can think of at the moment, sorry for the long post and thanks for hearing me out, JC team.

[Fyone]

I'll fix those bugs you mentioned for Snakeman, Uranus, and Protoman for next version. Thanks for reporting them.


We will most likely just increase Crashman's jump height for next version, however I can't see us buffing his armour because that would be too big of a buff even if he is supposed to have higher armour.

Water Cannon may feel strong against bots, but in online play it's very easy to avoid so it needs to do good damage to catch people off guard/zone.

Turboman gains a speed boost when he has his Scorch Wheel up so we can't have him be able to hold it indefinitely.

For Centaurman's galloping I'm not 100% sure if you can mute it for the player using the class only but I personally feel the galloping noise isn't that annoying especially considering when you use your item use you won't hear it all. However if more people find that it's bothersome we can see about doing something to it.

EDIT: I forgot about Gyroman; when flying your Gyro Attacks don't consume any ammo so I don't feel like ammo should be an issue for him.