"Playing to win" in 8BDM

[Tesseractal]

This is an article written quite some time ago titled "playing to win". I've known about this article for a long time but forgotten the exact source, until someone reminded me today. I think it helps tremendously in understanding gaming in general, and what it means to win. A shorter version of this article as an excerpt can be found here.

This issue has been some what of a contention among older players of the game. Various people have, in this game, declared certain things to be "cheap" or unfair - which, as the article would say, is the hallmark of being a scrub. So that's why I'm curious to ask you: Do you think certain things in this game are "cheap"? Is anything cheap? Why do you think so? (and if you read the article, would you change your mind about it?)

[Knux]

I think Noise Crush should get a nerf. When you think about it, it's Hard Knuckle without the drawbacks. Now that is cheap (and I mean special price cheap, not "asdf don't use that shit" cheap). Don't know if you guys follow, but it's 4am.

I'll get back to this when I'm not tired.

[Kapus]

Noise Crush does have drawbacks. To do the full damage, you have to bounce it off of a surface and charge it to do the full damage. Hard Knuckle does not require that; you can just keep shooting it and do all the damage repeatedly.

[Hallan Parva]

Noise Crush also moves faster, has over twice the ammo to charge it, uses nothing when charged, and doesn't recoil you backward.

Besides the need to charge it, I see nothing but free bonuses for a ridiculous 70-damage shot.

[*Alice]

Yamato Spear is still very strong, almost too much so.
But there is no weapon I would really call cheap.

But nobody even plays this competitively anymore, just look at all those Saxton Hale servers. (Correct me if I am wrong)
And I have just been playing this for barely over 18 months, so it's not like I have any right to complain or criticize.

[Hallan Parva]

Yamato Spear's sort of supposed to be stupidly strong. It's only a real monster up close; try killing anything effectively at a range. You'll run out of ammo before you can even break off half of someone's health in chip damage.

Noise Crush, on the other hand, is an improved Hard Knuckle you get for free. :I



Also, there are a few people who exist to "play to win" and don't care about what's fun or not, though with v3's changes it's mostly in Jax Classes. Go on, try to look me in the eyes and say you haven't see "MLG pro Skull Man" on a server.

[PressStart]

There's some good points in there concerning competitive gaming, but as you can tell with his "Akuma exception" and the replies to the article (where he refuses to hear anyone out and edits comments to insert his responses), even "top players" cry foul about cheap factors. Programmed games help make sure players go along for the most part, but there will always be problem cases where someone will see a tactic as unfair (for example, one person could see crashing a server as them winning the game, while everyone else I'm sure would disagree).

It all comes down to playing by the rules, in-game and "made-up", that are relative to where you are. If you're playing with a friend, you should both be playing in a way that is comfortable and fair to you both. If they see something as overly cheap and can't get past it, you should either stop using the tactic or stop playing because they're not going to have any fun if they're up against a brick wall (I'm not saying you should quit out as soon as someone cries cheap... just to watch out for an extreme situation). If you're playing in a server or a tournament, you have to go by the rules set there... no picking banned characters, using tactics that are banned, etc... otherwise you'll get kicked out.

Just use common sense and don't be a jerk about what it absolutely right or wrong to do.

[Messatsu]

I think a good indication on whether a weapon is too powerful or not is whether players can and do use a weapon almost exclusively to win.  A good example is Drill Man's stage and Power Stone in v2c.  That was the weapon to get, and generally whomever spammed that the most, won. With the slight changes to Power Stone in v3a, it's still a very powerful weapon, but it's not 'quite' as bad in that stage.

In regard to Noise Crush, I gotta ask, did anyone honestly use it in v2c? As far as I saw, it was one of the most ignored weapons due to it's difficulty of use and low payoff.  If you ask me, the buff was needed to bring it back into the folder of powerful weapons with drawbacks.  NC definitely is powerful, but it's more useful as a surprise weapon than something you use fighting players as your only weapon.

[LlamaHombre]

I wouldn't call it cheap necessarily but Centaur Flash can be downright frustrating if the opponent can build up ammo and keep firing as most projectiles you fire in retaliation decide they simply don't want to be a part of the banter anymore and fly away, never to be seen again. It's also rather disorienting with your screen flashing each time you're hit, making it even harder to aim at the opponent. It does minimal damage, sure, but with a W-Tank or two, the opponent's only option would be somehow landing enough hits to get the opponent to either freak out and leave or blow up. It deals hit stun, which makes running unavailable unless your opponent loses you out of his range.

I'd like to play this game more seriously, but my aim is downright atrocious and while I like to believe I have decent footwork, it doesn't really matter if you can't aim worth shit.

Rather interesting read, though. I admire those in the competitive metagame more than certain others because they've found a different, more intense way to play this game. Strategies in the competitive metagame are often pretty neat to pull off, and some pretty funny antics can come out of it. I remember a match on Needle Man with Magnet Dood where I spent a minute stalking him, somehow unnoticed, until he decided to go for Gravity Hold. He jumps on Rush Coil, and I respond with a Gravity Hold of my own. The server was in uproar.

[Magnet Dood]

I remember a match on Needle Man with Magnet Dood where I spent a minute stalking him, somehow unnoticed, until he decided to go for Gravity Hold. He jumps on Rush Coil, and I respond with a Gravity Hold of my own. The server was in uproar.

The scars are still there

I don't remember whether they were laughing at me or criticizing you, but to be honest any one going for Gravity Hold usually has to look out for others with Gravity Hold due to its placement on most maps (Needle being one of the most prominent). It's still unbelievably hilarious, of course, and not as cheap as many might think. It's got low ammo and pretty small damage output when on the ground, not to mention it's pretty noticeable when out. I mean, anyone who decides to jump up a far distance when a player has Gravity Hold out isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

One weapon I'd often consider cheap is Flash Stopper, but it had a huge turn-around from v2 to v3. Before, those that took out the flash sprite were cheap since they were just abusing Slade, but now those using it can be awfully annoying. It's mainly because of the effect- it actually really hurts my eyes, and often I have to close them and wipe them while holding fire and blindly wheeling around in an attempt to ward off the attacker.

Most of the other AoE attacks are fair game, besides people complaing that "ur cheap bcuz u don't aim, cheater"

[Orange juice :l]

Yamato Spear's sort of supposed to be stupidly strong. It's only a real monster up close; try killing anything effectively at a range. You'll run out of ammo before you can even break off half of someone's health in chip damage.

Ammo is never
EVER
an issue in MM8BDM. It's typically played on Nightmare, which means double ammo, and there is ammo everywhere. Add in three Wtanks and it's GG.
Besides that, a single Yamato Spear does about 15 damage [hurr hurr rippers], and considering the projectiles are reasonably quick, have an insane RoF, and spread out, you're going to be doing plenty of damage from any range that's not across the map. Besides, if the enemy needs to outrange yamato spear, what exactly CAN they do from that far away?

Also, there are a few people who exist to "play to win" and don't care about what's fun or not, though with v3's changes it's mostly in Jax Classes. Go on, try to look me in the eyes and say you haven't see "MLG pro Skull Man" on a server.
Well I'm sorry some people find competitive gameplay fun
We would be playing tournaments but they tend to die off a lot here in Cutstuff cough cough DND3 Smash cough cough

[Laggy Blazko]

Huh, I always thought Deathmatch was about getting the right weapons/items and using them. EDIT: Unless you're playing classes. Then just pick the right class.

[fabledfrostbrand]

Homing sniper could stand to use a nerf or two...

[Magnet Dood]

Reading through this thing made me say "hey that's just like me" quite a few times.

I still don't really support the idea of Playing to Win all too much, but at least it makes a little more sense. From my point of view, though, I'd really say "cheap" is another way of saying "frustrating". I mean, getting killed by the same tactic over and over would be frustrating to most, I'd imagine. I doubt they spend time looking for counters, though. Most of the people who call cheap on tactics either:
1. Win all the time against mediocre opponents, who usually have basic skills
2. Lose all the time to good opponents, who usually use the same tactics, or
3. are just sore losers.

I was (and still pretty much am) part of the number 2 catergory, and I'll admit that I've called stuff cheap or unfair multiple times. What I don't get is people who win and STILL call things cheap. I've seen it happen before.

Then there's just crap like abusing bugs to teamkill, which is definitely not playing to win.

does this mean that playing to have fun doesn't exist

EDIT: By the way, if you call anything cheap, does that make you a scrub?

[Knux]

Noise Crush does have drawbacks. To do the full damage, you have to bounce it off of a surface and charge it to do the full damage. Hard Knuckle does not require that; you can just keep shooting it and do all the damage repeatedly.

Or just run forward looking down and fire on Software. Even easier on OpenGL.

And yes Mess. It was used in v2c more than most people think. As it is right now, I'd take it over the buster upgrades and of course, Hard Knuckle, because of that advantage. Unless it's Proto Upgrade because of the shield.