MM8BDM v4 What maps do you feel need work?

[Emmanuelf06]

Flashman map can be maybe more interesting, but it can be good if somebody work on a packmap for DUEL (little map then).

MM2FLA is good as MM4DRI, i think, anyways, if nobody try to make a packmap for duel, we need to keep those maps....
Cutman map is maybe TOO SHORT i think, and a lot of regen. :/

Sorry I didnt read the beginning of the threat.

Anyways, we need good "short map" and good" large map".

[Mendez]

I frankly don't like the new version of Heat Man and I feel that it should it be taken back to the drawing board. I'm gonna post screenshots of specific parts of the map and try to explain why I don't consider this map to be as good as it should be. I'm mainly looking for answers to certain design choices, but there are some parts of the map that I feel are simply not designed well. Let's begin.
Energy all around

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The entire map feels littered with energy capsules that are usually off to the side but simple to walk over and pick up. While it can be argued that the loads of capsules help in large deathmatch games, that only leaves me to ponder why there is so few health capsules as well. Coupled with the energy balance, I would simply have to run around for a few seconds before refilling most of my weapons. If this is intended, then I don't understand what the need is for so much energy in the first place.

Mirror Buster vs. Skull Barrier

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I find Skull Barrier quite useless when compared to the defensive+offensive capabilities of a weapon like Mirror Buster. This is especially true when Mirror Buster is incredibly easy to attain in the first place. All you need to do to get Mirror Buster in this map is strafe run towards it from almost any angle, rendering the Yoku Blocks around the weapon utterly useless.

Even if Skull Barrier offers full protection and time for healing, the abundant amount of energy provides the opportunity to continuously use Skull Barrier to your heart's content. The time for healing seems to be Skull Barrier's only benefit too, considering that you could still navigate the stage just fine without having to cross the lava as a shortcut. At least in the original Heat Man, there were also opportunities to snag good items in the lava. I'm disappointed that no such opportunities appeared in this map.

Yoku Blocks vs. the Ladder

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What exactly is the advantage of navigating Yoku Blocks out in the open where you're practically a sitting duck for a few seconds? Is it that significant of a shortcut? I think not, considering there's a ladder about two seconds away from it.

The ladder is just about as fast as waiting for the block and jumping up. Also, the ladder is much closer to the power items than the Yoku Blocks are. This leads me to my next point.

Almost all the items in this map are far too easy to acquire

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As I climbed up the more-convenient-to-use-than-yoku-block-ish ladder, I was confronted with three useful items in the map. I was one turn or jump away from most of these items, and they're practically scattered across the map. This includes Treble Sentry, which requires one small jump to reach. While none of these items are incredibly powerful, it baffles me to think that in the old Heat Man, it was much harder to get Treble Sentry, while this map makes is incredibly easy. The only item that requires much effort is the e-tank. It requires that you aim item-2 accurately toward the tank and stay on the platform for about 5-7 seconds as it slowly moves toward the platform. You could use Skull Barrier to make the trip easier, but wouldn't it be faster to use Skull Barrier and reach toward the large health capsules scattered across the map? And if you wanted to just stay safe, wouldn't it be easier to quickly grab Mirror Buster and stay on the first floor, where you have no risk of falling into the lava all around you? This leads me to my next point.

Flash Stopper and the rails that appear to make Flash Stopper almost useless

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There is Flash Stopper, located in an corner of the map, in an indoor area where nobody can fall into lava after being blinded by Flash Stopper. You'd think that outside would be where Flash Stopper is incredibly useful, but there are rails that say otherwise.



I assume this small pit is useful for people with Flash Stopper, but it's so small that I think it's an easily avoidable obstacle.
Why bother to make Flash Stopper difficult to acquire and then place rails all over the map to reduce its effectiveness?

Some parts of the layout in general feel odd to me

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There are a lot of paths converging in this section, meaning that there will be a lot of people who will be fighting in this section. However, this section is incredibly narrow compared to the rest of the open areas in the map, where less routes converge but there's more space for fighting.

Please note that I'm only doing this to set an example for certain people who feel that they can just say "you just make confusing maps with crappy weapon layouts" and think that it will automatically make the mappers know better. You need examples. Evidence. Time and effort to explain what makes these maps so flawed. I'm sick and tired of hearing such criticism of the team without any specific solution in mind, thinking that enough bitching and moaning will make a damn difference in this world. It won't. We're human. We don't know everything, and have never claimed so. We're more than willing to hear people out if they actually trusted us, but they seem so intent on thinking we're so evil and corrupt that they think we'll just magically topple over some day and leave them with the opportunity to take the helm and call the shots. That isn't happening, and you can stop wishing. You either help us or stay in the shadows and act like a bitter bastard while we churn out new versions. Again, I'm only talking to certain people when I say this. Everyone else in the community is just fine.

[TheDoc]

Imo, MM2BUB needs a change.
1.) How hard is it to find people in MM2BUB, especially in a duel?
2.) The spikes are so annoying. SO ANNOYING. In trying to run away from an enemy or just rushing to a particular spot in the map, more often then not you'll run straight into the spikes. Bots run into them, too, but that's really not as important.
3.) I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

[Ceridran]

MM2FLA is one of the few small maps that really feel good, especially for dueling purpose.

If you feel it is needed, add yoku blocks or a staircase to get up to the teleporter exit, to the right of the bars.

[Linnie]

Imo, MM2BUB needs a change.
1.) How hard is it to find people in MM2BUB, especially in a duel?
2.) The spikes are so annoying. SO ANNOYING. In trying to run away from an enemy or just rushing to a particular spot in the map, more often then not you'll run straight into the spikes. Bots run into them, too, but that's really not as important.
3.) I agree that a section above water in front of the big waterfall would be so cool. My best memory of Bubbleman's stage (for whatever reason) is starting out in front of that waterfall and then re-entering the waterfall section to before facing Bubbleman, and it'd be very nostalgic to add to the map.

It sounds like you want MM2BUB to be replaced by MM2BUBX.


As to the idea of a Duel pack, I'm all for it, I'd love to see some more maps catering to Duel. Maybe we could even get smaller versions of the large maps like Swordman and Mr. X.

[Beed28]

It sounds like you want MM2BUB to be replaced by MM2BUBX.

MM2BUBX will need to be rebuilt from the ground up sometime in the future, as it uses a teleporter trick that would not be suitable for the core because it would be easy to telefrag opponents upon entering/leaving the water, especially in the shafts above the bubble bouncers.

[VGS2]

The only change I can think of is that a few more aesthetic changes to ol' Aqua Man's stage might be nice.
At the moment it just doesn't feel very Aqua Manish, save for the part of of the stage where the wall's all green/blue and wire-meshy.

Not really all that important, but if you're interested, I'd suggest putting those strange water towers from the start of Aqua Man's stage in the background somewhere, or maybe the cave where you fight Aqua Nan instead, or something like that. That should make things more handsome!

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Like putting it in here, for example.

Also, the area with the waterfall as a background might be better with a bit of a brush up too.

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Like adding the logs and a bit of foliage as seen beow, maybe?

I dunno man. Maybe it's fine the way it is. 'Tis up to you guys.

And gee Mendez, is it ok to be showing off so much of the new Heat Man and other stuff at once without Ivory here?  
Not that I'm complaining, of course...

[Ivory]

To be technical, nope. He never asked me beforehand if it was alright. But what's done is done, it wasn't a MMB map.

[Kapus]

The water towers were actually used in the old beta version of the map. I could not figure out how to implement them properly at the time, though, so they were eventually removed.

They could work in that little window area, though. That's entirely possible.

[Gumballtoid]

It only recently occurred to me, but Gyroman's skybox burns my retinas. I feel like it would be much more bearable if the clouds were raised drastically.

It counts.

[Beed28]

It only recently occurred to me, but Gyroman's skybox burns my retinas. I feel like it would be much more bearable if the clouds were raised drastically.

It counts.

I think the skybox is like that because the giant fan up above is actually opaque; if the sky was moved up the white of the "ceiling" would cut off the blue and the cloud edges.

[Lagman]

YES. YOU CAN FINALLY GO OUTSIDE IN CUTMAN'S STAGE. HNNNNG

[cybersavior]

I don't have anything to say about total redesigns, I would like to see alternate versions of the smaller maps, don't remove them just give us alternate versions with a similar feel that support a larger amount of players.

Elecman's stage could use a couple blocks in the air connecting one side to the other in the big open area. The biggest offender here though is too many of the deathmatch starts are in the main area and there aren't many in other areas, instead there are numerous player 1 starts all over the outlying areas instead, WTF??? (perhaps an oversight?)

Slashman's stage needs the speed of the rivers in it to be reduced, significantly, as it currently stands the rivers are too much of a pain and most everyone I play with avoids them altogether(which isn't hard), because of this, the rivers themselves become pointless. Not to mention the travel speed does not match the animation of the water either, not even close.

Gutsman's stage has one area in the lower cave where the ceiling is too low for Gutsman to use his weapon, he cannot currently throw his weapon without it hitting the roof most of the time (I mean COME ON!!! Its his level after all, his own weapon should not be rendered useless anywhere in the level) A simple increase for the raising the lowest part of cave ceiling height by 32, Especially when playing classes mod as Gutsman.

Skullman's stage needs a major dialing down of the Skeleton Joes (I know we can turn them off, but I don't want that) I just would like to see their number reduced by a lot, I mean 25 Skeleton Joes for such a small level is a bit much.  I understand we are going for a spectator theme, but they're a scourge.

[*Alice]

I object against making Gutsman's corridor taller.

I feel like the general roughness of the terrain that keeps getting in your way gives the map an unique personality.
Yes, it often get somewhat annoying, but being forced to make situational use of the weapons and not just Super Arm everything to death is in my eyes a good thing.
I, personally think that Hyper Bomb is maybe a little too spammable and I'd totally be in favor of replacing it with Napalm Bomb (if it doesn't break the gameplay).
But Gutsman is a really fun map because of how much it works against the player for once, unlike many of the newer maps where you get all the space in the world to do whatever you want.

[Knux]

You can use the currents in MM7SLA to your advantage, you know? Run with them, and as soon as you're about to exit through the waterfall, jump and hug a wall. You'll end up in higher ground much quicker.