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February 28, 2011, 05:18:59 AM
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Offline SickSadWorld

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Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« on: February 28, 2011, 05:18:59 AM »
A discussion came up in a duel server as to honorable and dishonorable stages for duels. I am beginning to understand this but I think it should be a longer lasting dialog. So here is the deal.

On a scale from 1-7, 1 behind "most dishonorable" and 7 being "most honorable" how do you rate the stages that are available?

Please feel free to include I-Pack or CSCM or whatever maps as well but specifically I'm interested in thoughts on the stock maps.

For example; Quick Man is seen by some as a 1 because of the possibility to use Time Stopper + Item-1 + Top Spin for easy kills. By contrast Flash Man might be seen as a 7 because of its lack of E-/ M- tanks or G. Hold or otherwise "cheap" or "dishonorable" methods for killing the opponent.

Your thoughts?

February 28, 2011, 05:22:51 AM
Reply #1

Offline Kapus

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2011, 05:22:51 AM »
I always thought Hard Man was a good place to duel.

That's all I can think of off hand.

February 28, 2011, 05:25:03 AM
Reply #2

Offline SickSadWorld

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2011, 05:25:03 AM »
Quote from: "Kapus"
I always thought Hard Man was a good place to duel.

Any specific reason?

February 28, 2011, 05:27:04 AM
Reply #3

Offline Korby

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2011, 05:27:04 AM »
Because it's small and fun.
Plus, it's where I beat Cutman, so therefore it is the best duel map.

February 28, 2011, 05:28:07 AM
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Offline Kapus

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2011, 05:28:07 AM »
Well..

There's no E tank, M tank or Eddie
There's a Proto Upgrade there, but it can still be easily countered with Pharaoh Shot or Magnet Missile.
The overall weapon selection feels just right.

And, as Korby said, its small. I think smaller stages are better for duels.

February 28, 2011, 06:16:52 AM
Reply #5

Offline rtist

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2011, 06:16:52 AM »
We talked about this to some extent, sicksadworld, so I'll throw in some of what was discussed:

The biggest thing about some of these "dishonorable" tactics is that some things are easily exploited, or some situations easily abused. E/W/M tanks being hoarded in duels are obviously dishonorable, but there are some situations that do call for that in terms of strategy. Logically, therefore, there isn't anything wrong with these sort of tactics, but I find that they don't tend to be aesthetically pleasing (and being an [a]rtist, I tend to be an authority on what is [a]rtistry in battle and what is not).

Here are some examples of legal, though "dishonorable" combat:

E/W/M tank hoarding: A form of camping where it is difficult to dislodge an opponent from the position since he in essence has two or more lives to work with via tanks. I've found that striking hard and fast with quick weapons or power weapons seems to work best here, but it depends on the weapons that are available, because the opponent will typically have access to the same weapons that the challenger does.

Spamming certain weapons: Magnets, Gravity, and a few other weapons are subject to spamming. Defeating spamming depends on the weapon. In terms of magnets, strafe-running and close combat tend to be best. In terms of gravity, I've found that quick-killing weapons (such as atomic fire) work best. It varies a lot, but some spammed weapons are tough to beat.

Weapon abuse: Different from spamming, these are weapons that are so powerful and/or useful that an opponent will always tend to use them. Pharaoh and Top comes to mind most here. Lots of players use Pharaoh since its a power-charging weapon. Mid-to-long range weapons tend to be best against a Pharaoh user. Wave in particular is extremely effective Pharaoh and Top both.

Weapon exploits: Needs no explanation. I don't think I have to mention the exploits in wave man's stage. Mirror in particular also comes to mind. It can be hard to beat a mirror buster when exploits are used (like with tango in mm3dw1, which can produce a chain-mirror buster blast). Instead of aiming at the target head-on, aim slightly off target to effectively land shots. Hit-and-run tactics tend to work against mirror exploiters, too, but...

Hit-and-run: These tactics can be abused, too. Some people will just fire a few shots and run for more life when hurt. It makes sense in some situations to do this, but it can be frustrating to fight a person who always fights in this manner. Quick weapons (like Bass) or power weapons (like Crash) tend to work best, especially at close range.

Shield weapons: On some maps, shields are all but broken. Take the skull barrier on heat man's stage; you can get the skull barrier, trigger it, and live forever grabbing weapon energy as you go. Granted, you can't win if you do that, but it's still annoying. Also, Leaf Shield on wind man's stage is neigh-unbeatable without the use of Bass or Eddie. Speaking of which....

Eddie: He makes some levels broken when you get particular items/weapons. G-hold on just about any level is broken, and Eddie is the ticket to that. He occasionally gives other special weapons (shields) that break maps in duels. At Wily's Other Kastle, I once got G-hold here in a duel. I used it not to kill the opponent, but to force the opponent out into the water currents, which caused a suicide on the opponent. I eventually stopped (you still have to get frags to win!) but the damage was done at that point; the opponent needed several more kills to just get back to 0 points!

Geographic traps: Not nearly as common as one would think, but can still be annoying. I'm thinking of flame man's stage, and burning the oil pools. Repeated stuff like this can put an opponent beyond any capacity to win a match.

Item-1 trap: this also gets abused at times, but it can be hard to pull off. It's much easier when you have time stopper, and can stop an opponent that's not moving at all (a la quick man or Eddie). An immobile player is a dead player.

Rush Jet/Beat: Common enough items, they allow you to move along three axises more freely, since they let you fly. Flying opponents automatically have the higher position, making them harder to hit. A few players will abuse these items, since they're occasionally plentiful (ring man). Careful aim can beat them, or just fly with them and try to attack that way. Quick weapons can help land shots, too.

With this knowledge of "cheap" tactics (I may have left some out; if so, just add them), we can judge which maps are "honorable" and "dishonorable". It should be mentioned that some situations can't help be taken advantage of with one or more of these; it just happens at times. So, the maps should be judged on a case-by-case basis or even a player-by-player basis.

A player that combines some or all of these tactics can be extremely difficult to beat without using the same tactics in kind. So, I've made the point that I'll generally copy to an extent what the opponent in a duel will do or try to do. If (s)he uses a few of these, I'll generally use a few. If an opponent uses all of these tactics, I will (try to) as well.

That's why the items/weapons available on a map are so important. Terrain matters a lot in FPS and strategy games, but in most FPS's, the weapon availability is far more important, since most of the maps have similar geographic features anyway (high ground, middle ground, low ground, narrow corridors, open areas). Then again, in most FPS's, the maps aren't that different in terms of weaponry, since there's only 7-8 or so weapons in any particular game. Mm8bdm is different in the fact that it features a far greater number of weapons. That's why, in duels, I'll choose maps more for the weapons and less for the terrain itself.

Choice of map = choice of weapons. Simple as that.

February 28, 2011, 06:20:08 AM
Reply #6

Offline Mr. X

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2011, 06:20:08 AM »
Quite frankly, a lot of those are valid tactics.  If somebody is spamming a weapon, it's up to you to both dodge it and come up with a counter strategy.  Also, I assumed being smart and grabbing W and E tanks was the name of the game.  Exploits, however, are pretty dang stupid because most aren't intended.

February 28, 2011, 07:42:09 AM
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Offline SickSadWorld

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2011, 07:42:09 AM »
It definitely seems to be a finer and finer line between good tactics and "exploits". I personally believe there's no such thing as exploits, as long as there's no modification to the client program or packet data... such strategies and tactics are available to all players. Like rtist said, if you see it you can adapt and learn from it - and after all isn't that the spirit of Megaman?

Anyway, this discussion opens my eyes in a number of ways. I had not previously thought of it in this great detail, but this discussion leads to a number of important considerations in map making and specifically item placement for Deathmatch/ Duel modes.

I would be interested in keeping this discussion going. I really appreciate your thoughts.


After dueling someone on Wood Man after posting this it seems like it is quite an "honorable" stage. I would rate it definitely a 6 or 7. It has an E-tank but it's not so easily accessed so as to be abused frequently. The choice of weapons is interesting but not overpowering. There's no Rush Jet and frequent Leaf Shield users can be countered by Rolling Cutters but there's also a nice variety of weapons effective at various ranges.

February 28, 2011, 06:05:24 PM
Reply #8

Offline Asd967

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2011, 06:05:24 PM »
This topic I pretty much talked about with mostly everyone on the chats or on games.

I won't say much because I bet most people already know my opinion on this.

On Weapon Choice, It's just common sense to go for the best weapon(s) that are easily spammable/offer high hit rating, because on this game it's hard to hit, even more so if you aren't server or isn't near it.

Most weapons that are commonly used are:
Pharaoh Shot/Drill Bomb/Ballade Cracker (Hit Rating on Explosion)
Star Crash/Top Spin (Melee High Damaging)
Centaur Flash/Gravity Hold/Rain Flush (Area of effect)
Rolling Cutter/Knight Crush/Atomic Fire (One Hit Kills)
Leaf Shield/Proto Upgrade/Skull Barrier/Mirror Buster (Survival)
Dive Missle/Magnet Missle (Trackers)
Napalm Bomb/Screw Crusher/Charge Kick (Running)
Gyro Attack/Super Arm/Mirror Buster (Cancelling)

(Mirror is listed twice because of its use among the players)
This is in no way a tier list, just listing the most frequently used weapons.
After grabbing the weapons they go off to camp on health and E-Tanks.
Mainly with Charge Kick, you can run off forever, as pellets of health and weapon energy are plenty on the maps.

Another easily abusable tactic is getting in fight with someone then running away, shooting backwards (mainly on small corridors), making it impossible to be chased. Then just heal up and repeat, making the battle pure stalling.

March 01, 2011, 06:47:43 AM
Reply #9

Offline Mr. Sean Nelson

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2011, 06:47:43 AM »
Quote from: "rtist"
We talked about this to some extent, sicksadworld, so I'll throw in some of what was discussed:

The biggest thing about some of these "dishonorable" tactics is that some things are easily exploited, or some situations easily abused. E/W/M tanks being hoarded in duels are obviously dishonorable, but there are some situations that do call for that in terms of strategy. Logically, therefore, there isn't anything wrong with these sort of tactics, but I find that they don't tend to be aesthetically pleasing (and being an [a]rtist, I tend to be an authority on what is [a]rtistry in battle and what is not).

Here are some examples of legal, though "dishonorable" combat:

E/W/M tank hoarding: A form of camping where it is difficult to dislodge an opponent from the position since he in essence has two or more lives to work with via tanks. I've found that striking hard and fast with quick weapons or power weapons seems to work best here, but it depends on the weapons that are available, because the opponent will typically have access to the same weapons that the challenger does.

Spamming certain weapons: Magnets, Gravity, and a few other weapons are subject to spamming. Defeating spamming depends on the weapon. In terms of magnets, strafe-running and close combat tend to be best. In terms of gravity, I've found that quick-killing weapons (such as atomic fire) work best. It varies a lot, but some spammed weapons are tough to beat.

Weapon abuse: Different from spamming, these are weapons that are so powerful and/or useful that an opponent will always tend to use them. Pharaoh and Top comes to mind most here. Lots of players use Pharaoh since its a power-charging weapon. Mid-to-long range weapons tend to be best against a Pharaoh user. Wave in particular is extremely effective Pharaoh and Top both.

Weapon exploits: Needs no explanation. I don't think I have to mention the exploits in wave man's stage. Mirror in particular also comes to mind. It can be hard to beat a mirror buster when exploits are used (like with tango in mm3dw1, which can produce a chain-mirror buster blast). Instead of aiming at the target head-on, aim slightly off target to effectively land shots. Hit-and-run tactics tend to work against mirror exploiters, too, but...

Hit-and-run: These tactics can be abused, too. Some people will just fire a few shots and run for more life when hurt. It makes sense in some situations to do this, but it can be frustrating to fight a person who always fights in this manner. Quick weapons (like Bass) or power weapons (like Crash) tend to work best, especially at close range.

Shield weapons: On some maps, shields are all but broken. Take the skull barrier on heat man's stage; you can get the skull barrier, trigger it, and live forever grabbing weapon energy as you go. Granted, you can't win if you do that, but it's still annoying. Also, Leaf Shield on wind man's stage is neigh-unbeatable without the use of Bass or Eddie. Speaking of which....

Eddie: He makes some levels broken when you get particular items/weapons. G-hold on just about any level is broken, and Eddie is the ticket to that. He occasionally gives other special weapons (shields) that break maps in duels. At Wily's Other Kastle, I once got G-hold here in a duel. I used it not to kill the opponent, but to force the opponent out into the water currents, which caused a suicide on the opponent. I eventually stopped (you still have to get frags to win!) but the damage was done at that point; the opponent needed several more kills to just get back to 0 points!

Geographic traps: Not nearly as common as one would think, but can still be annoying. I'm thinking of flame man's stage, and burning the oil pools. Repeated stuff like this can put an opponent beyond any capacity to win a match.

Item-1 trap: this also gets abused at times, but it can be hard to pull off. It's much easier when you have time stopper, and can stop an opponent that's not moving at all (a la quick man or Eddie). An immobile player is a dead player.

Rush Jet/Beat: Common enough items, they allow you to move along three axises more freely, since they let you fly. Flying opponents automatically have the higher position, making them harder to hit. A few players will abuse these items, since they're occasionally plentiful (ring man). Careful aim can beat them, or just fly with them and try to attack that way. Quick weapons can help land shots, too.

With this knowledge of "cheap" tactics (I may have left some out; if so, just add them), we can judge which maps are "honorable" and "dishonorable". It should be mentioned that some situations can't help be taken advantage of with one or more of these; it just happens at times. So, the maps should be judged on a case-by-case basis or even a player-by-player basis.

A player that combines some or all of these tactics can be extremely difficult to beat without using the same tactics in kind. So, I've made the point that I'll generally copy to an extent what the opponent in a duel will do or try to do. If (s)he uses a few of these, I'll generally use a few. If an opponent uses all of these tactics, I will (try to) as well.

That's why the items/weapons available on a map are so important. Terrain matters a lot in FPS and strategy games, but in most FPS's, the weapon availability is far more important, since most of the maps have similar geographic features anyway (high ground, middle ground, low ground, narrow corridors, open areas). Then again, in most FPS's, the maps aren't that different in terms of weaponry, since there's only 7-8 or so weapons in any particular game. Mm8bdm is different in the fact that it features a far greater number of weapons. That's why, in duels, I'll choose maps more for the weapons and less for the terrain itself.

Choice of map = choice of weapons. Simple as that.

I liked how you basically described any strategy one can use in any game mode. While I don't like duels, and there are players who grievously abuse levels, this all comes down to subjective value and taste. Since at least one of these dishonorable actions can be employed on any map, we would need to call all maps dishonorable. But the more realistic route would be to admit that maps are not honorable or dishonorable, and that people are.

March 01, 2011, 07:52:49 AM
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Offline TERRORsphere

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2011, 07:52:49 AM »
Winning is winning.

March 02, 2011, 10:23:12 PM
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Offline Mr. Sean Nelson

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2011, 10:23:12 PM »
That is trivially true.
Winning is winning, but winning is not everything.
If winning were the one and only goal of a player, I would pity them greatly.
Games are for fun, and doing anything to win makes a serious thing out of something which is not.
Winning is winning isn't even an excuse in major league sports, much less a little game like MM8BDM.

March 03, 2011, 12:53:35 AM
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Offline TERRORsphere

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #12 on: March 03, 2011, 12:53:35 AM »
Quote from: "Sean Nelson"
but winning is not everything.
If winning were the one and only goal of a player, I would pity them greatly.
Games are for fun, and doing anything to win makes a serious thing out of something which is not.
Doing anything to win? Do you mean, being good at the game or cheating. There's no such thing as "cheap" because you can be "cheap" too. This game is completely balanced. You have access to the same weapons, and you start with the same weapons.

This is a lot like Doom. I like to call Doom Deathmatch "Capture The BFG". Once you get it and be a "BFG lamer" you win the game. If you don't someone else will and getting wound up over it is dumb.

Also, why would you pity someone over winning a game? Games are for fun but the actual point of the game is to win. A game with no way of winning is pointless.

March 03, 2011, 01:04:40 AM
Reply #13

Offline Messatsu

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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #13 on: March 03, 2011, 01:04:40 AM »
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
... Games are for fun but the actual point of the game is to win. A game with no way of winning is pointless.
I disagree with this statement DTD.  I believe the point of games are to have fun.  There do exist games with no winner and they are not pointless, they are fun.  I'd like to point that you cannot win at many Atari games as they have no ending.  You can merely achieve a high score, but you will always lose.  There also exist societies (3rd world I believe) where the entire concept of a winner is foreign to them as the social games that children play do not have such a thing.  Granted I'm recanting that last bit from someone else, so take it with a large grain of salt.
Then again, this is just my opinion, and well, we all know what they say.

March 03, 2011, 02:32:29 AM
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Re: Category Rating of Stages: Honorable/ Dishonorable
« Reply #14 on: March 03, 2011, 02:32:29 AM »
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
A game with no way of winning is pointless.
Don't you play Minecraft?