GVH: Nordic Saga, and the GVH forking

[Watermelon]

To all of you who have played on GVH recently, you'll have noticed a new wad came out with 4 classes that put some unique balance into the game. It's called the Nordic Saga (by Tor-Bjorn), and some of us have been helping him with the beta.

Thus far it's been really good, V3 is coming out soon and will fix some of the slightly OP things and add new features, but my thread has a different direction.



In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't. I tried adding ghostbuster weapons and alternate things to the game to enhance the experience but I found out that it's locked up with ACS. In addition, the code is a complete mess and I found some really retarded bugs and ACS spam that just shouldn't be happening (especially with santa). I don't know if this is intentional or not.

The mod needs to be available to have additions to it, and in the current state it just can't take it. The ACS is quite limited, and just reading it gives a headache due to the lack of indentation. I actually found it easier to decompile it from bytecode and read that.


Therefore, this mod will be forking GVH in the future. V3 is in the works (I handle the advanced stuff but I seem to have caught the flu or something, hopefully it's coming out this weekend). In GVH the test of forking it has begun with success. What this means in basic terms: None of the GVH updates will be applicable at all with each other. GVH3b4 and on will not have any effect on the Nordic Saga due to all the actors being replaced and patched accordingly. For V4, instead of using a patch wad to do this, the entire game and it's glitches (like the one that has prevented it from running on Linux that have been around for ages... why was this not fixed immediately and left to linger for months?!) will be patched among other things.
In addition, if the maps aren't in UDMF they will be converted and ensure that 32 start points are available for each team.

In a further addition, Tor-Bjorn is a very active player for the time being. If you want something changed after V3 and V4, a hotfix can get it patched within the same day. There's no waiting anymore.


New features that are in the works are:
- Modifications for all the new four classes to continue making them more balanced. Remember, Nordic Saga is in the beta, it is not yet optimized as it should be. The community has been very good (especially in the 27+ people Nordic Saga servers!). As soon as the new version comes out hopefully this weekend we can get another massive GVH:NS server going.
- Anything else you want
- New ideas that people thought were limited but probably aren't after a complete ACS re-write
- Fancy stuff that will make you shiver in game

All our source code for the game will be open source and never obfuscated. Our classes though won't be able to be mixed with Meepy's add on classes (though that wad needs some major touching up if Meepy is still around/not aliasing another name/hasn't outright given up on it). Despite that, I'm using my previous programming language knowledge to expand ACS so that people can easily make their own classes and effects if need be. Thus far it's been a complete bitch to add stuff and basically requires a complete re-write anyways.

All constructive criticism is welcome.

[Tor-Bjorn]

Hopefully we don't have to exceed past v4 for the Nordic Saga beta. I notice IvanDobrovski & Hellstorm Haven't been credited. They played a role in testing, while helping balance out the game.



Anyways, it's nice to see you working so hard on this Watermelon, looking forward to your revisions for the ACS. Cheers.

[CutmanMike]

In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't.

Speak to Carthief, he's pretty much in charge of it now and his updates seem to be pretty balanced from what I've heard.

[Tor-Bjorn]

In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't.

Speak to Carthief, he's pretty much in charge of it now and his updates seem to be pretty balanced from what I've heard.

Statistically speaking, the odds of human teaming winning on, say GVH11 are next to 0% when the ghouls reach past 5 players. On tight maps, Jitterskull's and frostbite's simply overwhelm the humans resulting in a quick 5-0. The same happens for Ghouls on a big map (like strikebeam), Because most of the ghouls are melee based and a team of marines simple removes them from the map before they even get close.


Since the release of my wad, the balance between the teams have come increasingly closer. It's no longer a case of the map determining which team wins, but the skill level of the player, which was my goal all along. Watermelon has taken on the job of cleaning up/ patching the wad as he has found it to be very messy; something Carthief has still not tackled. I've found looking through the wad that he has redundant code that put's excessive stress on the server.

[CutmanMike]

Well, do what you want. It's all good open source. I haven't played since forever so I could just be talking nonsense, but last time I did it seemed like good ol GVH to me!

[Tor-Bjorn]

I would recommend you see the Nordic Saga addon for yourself. it does bring some fun new elements to the table while adding more balance to the game.

The Grandvoid server I hosted it on reached an all time high (just shy of 30 people) on a Friday night since the release of our wad. GvH hasn't seen that kind of activity for years until now. More recently I've seen other servers top out around 16 people, and that's on a good day. We double that.

With Watermelon and me working on the main wad, the productivity & maintenance is almost quadrupled.

[CarThief]

Hmm... Well, being basically a one-man team doesnt make large scale changes such as map conversion any easier (though i'll note the 32 start position for later fixing), but i'm trying.

Those mentioned scenarios about balance are currently quite map dependant, and rehauling all the maps is a gigantic pain and effort to do in one go, i mean, even Cutman back in the day didnt do much about the maps, its hard to make them more balanced yet still as the author atleast visually intended the map to be, even harder if the map is complex and has little to no space for improvements or widening, such as GVH11.

I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more addon-friendly ACS myself but you'll have to make some suggestions on what you exactly want, as for me it isnt too hard to make entirely new scripts to work around such limitations. I typically write a new script and let any other already handled parts refer to other scripts in the main GVH.

As for feedback on the actual classes, most people find the ice path rather... uh, abusable. It goes on till it hits the end of the map(or a really solid area), it apparently hurts more then intended, especially up close, and multiple times as well as just being neverending, no ammo limitation, no recharging it, or anything.

Most people also find the barbarian's hammer a bit overkill with the magic attack, especially versus Creepers where they just might as well kill themselves, its that effecient versus them.
Not much heard about the worm and the mage (though that mage does remind me ALOT of the oldschool mage from really early GVH, when it was hosted on stlms3 or so maps).

Oh, you could also join the GVH dev team or invite someone to join in, though dont ask me to let you in, though i technically can its all technical stuff and you're better off asking Euranna. Last time i heard she's around in Skulltag's IRC channel as Rachel, or PM her in the Skulltag forums for more, though its probaly good to have IRC available in case she asks for it.
Heh, its just too much to sign in for, to set up, and a program to install, im no good at that paperwork. :P

Edit: Hm, too much non-usefull code stressing servers? Would be nice if you made a list of that, either here or in PM, preferabaly mentioning script number, function and what acs file they're in. Reminds me i should find a lag-free way for GVH11's skycar explosion, but i'm really busy as is with all the GVH changes.

Edit2: Oh, is the Linux glitch fixed yet? Last time i heard someone had an issue with something in GVH's mapinfo, i hope v3b4 will fix that.

[Watermelon]

I'm just going go through these point by point, hopefully that makes it easier on you CarThief for forming a reply instead of me just making a huge post with many points in them

Hmm... Well, being basically a one-man team doesnt make large scale changes such as map conversion any easier (though i'll note the 32 start position for later fixing), but i'm trying.

For making the changes, I could do it in about a minute or so per map. I'd say at most it takes 40 minutes for a complete conversion of all the maps to UDMF and ensuring that all the start points are there.

Those mentioned scenarios about balance are currently quite map dependant, and rehauling all the maps is a gigantic pain and effort to do in one go, i mean, even Cutman back in the day didnt do much about the maps, its hard to make them more balanced yet still as the author atleast visually intended the map to be, even harder if the map is complex and has little to no space for improvements or widening, such as GVH11.

Making the map balanced would be really hard, the nice thing about GVH:NS is it brings to the table balance in a different sort of way. If the icefiend or any ghoul can camp in a certain spot and kill with 95%+ guarantee, I'd say it's poor map design and unrelated to us (or something we should fix).

I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more addon-friendly ACS myself but you'll have to make some suggestions on what you exactly want, as for me it isnt too hard to make entirely new scripts to work around such limitations. I typically write a new script and let any other already handled parts refer to other scripts in the main GVH.

As for more friendly ACS,
1) It would need to be indented and readable properly
2) Compose certain scripts together and maybe make them function on a switch state to reduce the amount of scripts
3) Use switches or for loops instead of a lot of if/elses
...etc

As for feedback on the actual classes, most people find the ice path rather... uh, abusable. It goes on till it hits the end of the map(or a really solid area), it apparently hurts more then intended, especially up close, and multiple times as well as just being neverending, no ammo limitation, no recharging it, or anything.

I agree, the icefiend is fixed (nerfed) in Beta V3.

Most people also find the barbarian's hammer a bit overkill with the magic attack, especially versus Creepers where they just might as well kill themselves, its that effecient versus them.
Not much heard about the worm and the mage (though that mage does remind me ALOT of the oldschool mage from really early GVH, when it was hosted on stlms3 or so maps).

I agree as well, the barbarian hammer is nuts when in the hands of someone who is an expert at playing, but it was beatable (but either way to make it fair, his hammer damage was reduced).
I was still able to lure people and kill them though with other classes even against better people. I'd say the problem is people in GVH just rush and expect things to work, and in this version it requires more 'skill' or less 'one dimensional playing' if you know what I mean.

Oh, you could also join the GVH dev team or invite someone to join in, though dont ask me to let you in, though i technically can its all technical stuff and you're better off asking Euranna. Last time i heard she's around in Skulltag's IRC channel as Rachel, or PM her in the Skulltag forums for more, though its probaly good to have IRC available in case she asks for it.
Heh, its just too much to sign in for, to set up, and a program to install, im no good at that paperwork. :P

If I was to join the dev team, I'd want the new classes to be added and a huge re-write of things done to make it readable

Is Eruanna even contributing anymore?

Edit: Hm, too much non-usefull code stressing servers? Would be nice if you made a list of that, either here or in PM, preferabaly mentioning script number, function and what acs file they're in. Reminds me i should find a lag-free way for GVH11's skycar explosion, but i'm really busy as is with all the GVH changes.

Edit2: Oh, is the Linux glitch fixed yet? Last time i heard someone had an issue with something in GVH's mapinfo, i hope v3b4 will fix that.

To begin:
Who oversaw Santa3b3.pk3?




EDIT:
BTW since you're the lead dev, why haven't you indented all the decorate/ACS code and made it readable? Open source was a great first step, but it's pretty much unreadable unless you're ready to sit down and go through everything.

[CarThief]

Hm, i dont think she's currently doing anything except the upkeep of various sites and the online sharing program for all developers (quite handy, actually), so basically its all paperwork, while i'm doing all the updates, atleast its more amusing then paying server bills, i guess.

Hm, GVH's ACS can get somewhat complicated, but moving it around makes for too much hazard of things breaking, i can know, i've messed with various things alot, though i can add comments of what stuff does, i suppose.
And whats this overseeing of GVHv3b3-santa.pk3 anyway? I am aware of a bug with the reflect scream shoving away traps now, though anything else, no idea...

Never really tried converting maps to another format, i'm personally fine with them as is, im assuming it would save space?

Hm... People always want more classes, more classes, more classes, i dont know about having those classes added, but if you ask me you're welcome to sort out stuff, there's always something that can use improvement, just ask Euranna as she's better at giving people acces and the program that allows everyone to keep the GVH files up to date online. Hm, still plenty of stuff to do before v3b4 is finished, such as fixing the various addons, it seems.

[Tor-Bjorn]

Since the release of V3 for the Beta NS_classes, we have essentially reached the epitome of balance to which it will then rely solely on the number of players per teams, rather than the map itself. Except for a few minor tweaks, and the addition of GB upgrades, this wad will certainly not exceed past v4 and will soon be seeing it's final release. Also with the entire re-write of GvH coming along as anticipated, we hope to integrate the addon classes into the revised wad and have all the servers hosting our new optimized Ghouls Vs Humans (maybe with some new maps )

[CarThief]

Meh, the obscene damage from the barbarian's weapon, the cheap invulnerability, the fact that storms do like 75 damage and more if you happen to be stuck or in a bad spot, its got a long way to reach actual balance. Classic superpowerfull Humans vs nerfed/weak(er) Ghouls scenario that used to present itself alot.

And i cannot lean the balance of GVH on this addon what still has a long way to go, either, no matter how you insist on doing some things yourself. Not to mention not everyone wants to play with such classes possibily, so it cant just be relied on, and you might want to cough up that possible linux error anyway.

Oh, and stop trying to hijack the whole thing, not everything is as compatible nor freely moddable, though speaking of the subject i did add some stuff making it more addon-friendly. Aside making hotfixes just shove any errors into the usual topic and it'll go into the internal GVH files.

[Tor-Bjorn]

Meh, the obscene damage from the barbarian's weapon, the cheap invulnerability, the fact that storms do like 75 damage and more if you happen to be stuck or in a bad spot, its got a long way to reach actual balance. Classic superpowerfull Humans vs nerfed/weak(er) Ghouls scenario that used to present itself alot.

It has been pointed out many times, the berserk invulnerability comes at cost. At the end of the berserk, you're health drops to 25 (or stays whatever your health was if it's < 25). My point being that the berserk is a last resort and can waste your turn should you use it improperly. When used however the ghouls quickly run away so to add a cool down that you were so aggressive about adding in would virtually render the berserk useless.

As for the sword, I think it's fine as it is, but to rule out a slight nerf would be asinine. It already does a random between 22-35 dmg, in which case I would consider lowering it to 20-27; The Berserk sword however will go unchanged. IvanDobrovski has proven as a skilled player that the Barbarian class is a force to be reckoned with, but the same results can not easily be anticipated with every other player as skill levels play a role.

I have also clearly stated in the Readme (and soon the be posted on the forum in final release) the barbarians main role was to excel in "Close Quarters Battle", something the humans lacked in rather tight maps where a jitter can make a mess. To reiterate this point to an even simpler level: the Barbarian does best on small maps, and does moderately okay on big open maps.

And i cannot lean the balance of GVH on this addon what still has a long way to go, either, no matter how you insist on doing some things yourself. Not to mention not everyone wants to play with such classes possibily, so it cant just be relied on, and you might want to cough up that possible linux error anyway.

I assure you this addon does not "have a long way to go" (If that is what you're implying), other than a few touch ups and SNDINFO modification, this wad nears it's final release. Having near 30 players in the Grandvoid server has proven to be the ultimate test of balance. With a well rounded mix of classes, I can yet again assure you that we've been through the balancing phase many times.

Oh, and stop trying to hijack the whole thing, not everything is as compatible nor freely moddable, though speaking of the subject i did add some stuff making it more addon-friendly. Aside making hotfixes just shove any errors into the usual topic and it'll go into the internal GVH files.

Stop "trying" to hijack? Well I'll play along with this game, but I'm sorry to inform you that it *HAS* been forked (I wonder what gave it away). Without trying to sound redundant, no other server hosting ghouls vs humans sees the attention we do at Grandvoid, and it will continue to increase. Since we came along and began fixing things, the consensus seems rather pleased (most credit goes to Watermelon for that dept.)

 I noticed since this addon-wad really starting picking up, you've managed to pick up the pace as well (Glad to see our wad is acting as motivation for you). I didn't like waiting months on end for an update; I'm a fix it now guy.

[CarThief]

Ah, things dont last forever, dont see meepy's classes being hosted much either, these days. I really wouldnt rely on the wad itself to fix everything if i where you, but oh well.

The beserk might be... Bearable, if not a tad over the top, possibily, though the normal ranged attack is just outright... barbaric, heh. And now it seems the new ghouls are doing much less decently then the humans. Just make the damn bezerk more obvious, though i think that was stated often enough on the server. Perhaps doomsphere-style red sprites.

Well i'd say, just because it gets 30 people a day doesnt mean it'll last, new classes get all the attention but not forever. Wonder if Grandvoid is able to update this time... Dont be too proud to update, it tends to have critical balance changes and bugfixes even if you insist on having this little rivalry of sorts, if anything giving people good and non-broken content is above that. Hmm... And GVH is just very large scale compared to the addon, dont be suprised if it takes weeks to update with all the changes that need considering, implementing and testing, especially if they refuse to work properly at first...

[Tor-Bjorn]

Ah, things dont last forever, dont see meepy's classes being hosted much either, these days. I really wouldnt rely on the wad itself to fix everything if i where you, but oh well.

I don't know if you noticed, but meepy's classes were poorly coded, generic, and imbalanced, 3 things I so desperately spent avoiding. All the while I've received many complements stating that my classes are new, original and fresh. But enough boasting, I've made it very clear that unlike meepy, I made the classes attacking the problems that GvH had: which is that the original ghouls did horrible on big open maps, and humans didn't stand a chance on small maps.

I can't say this without being blunt, but your choice of comparing our wads in an attempt to make a point was poorly executed.

The beserk might be... Bearable, if not a tad over the top, possibily, though the normal ranged attack is just outright... barbaric, heh. And now it seems the new ghouls are doing much less decently then the humans. Just make the damn bezerk more obvious, though i think that was stated often enough on the server. Perhaps doomsphere-style red sprites.

As I've stated in my previous post, the contemplation of nerfing it slightly is there, But it wouldn't be much of a nerf. It was stated in the server while you were there that the Barbarian would be receiving much "eye candy" with the V4 update on the way. The Berserk will certainly be perceptible with the ideas we are having implemented.

Well i'd say, just because it gets 30 people a day doesnt mean it'll last, new classes get all the attention but not forever. Wonder if Grandvoid is able to update this time... Dont be too proud to update, it tends to have critical balance changes and bugfixes even if you insist on having this little rivalry of sorts, if anything giving people good and non-broken content is above that. Hmm... And GVH is just very large scale compared to the addon, dont be suprised if it takes weeks to update with all the changes that need considering, implementing and testing, especially if they refuse to work properly at first...

I'm not looking for bringing attention to the new classes, the whole concept of these classes were to bring balance to the game, and luckly with the direction things are heading in, the will be integrated with the *forked* GvH pk3 instead of being just a stand alone wad. I am not quite sure why you are implying when you say "don't be too proud do update"? We do all our testing in private servers instead of blindly releasing the wad, so we know our updates are solid, This severely cuts down on the constant need to release hotfixes.  





I got a little chuckle out of your "rivalry" comment, because from where I stand - I see no rivalry. I only see a sinking ship being replaced by a superior vessel.

[Gummywormz]

Firstly, coming in with a "my classes are perfect and better than anything ever" attitude will not get you very far at all. Secondly, CarThief is right. After a few weeks the shinyness will die down and everyone will go back to their usual servers.