Bad Map Design (Discussion on what makes some of the current maps bad)

[PinjewIsHere]

So I was sitting there, swagging like a true gamer, when I realized some of these maps are kinda dog water. So, instead of making empty complaints on the Unofficial MM8BDM server, I'm starting a thread where I'll be hand picking the maps that I have qualms with.

How am I gonna criticize these maps? Simple. Using this swagger "Bad Map Design Sin list" I've created with a few people (Mendez and Lil Gibton mainly), I will go into details onto how they break some of the rules and commit the sins I've listed. The Sin list can be found in this link:
https://pastebin.com/XXfyLwmQ
It goes over the sins of mapping, as well as what maps avoid the sins.

I'll most likely be using Pastebin for a majority of my posts too, just to make it easier on me when writing up my complaints.
If you got problems with my opinions on the maps, I'm open to discussion about these maps. That is to say, you don't also do empty complaints on my opinions (Such as: Just adapt, It was only made for deathmatch, etc. If you wanna prove that a map is good, please give a logical explanation and reasoning behind it).

[Pr. Gibberoni]

dis gon b gud

dont fuck with lil gibton's mapping advice bro

[CutmanMike]

That is to say, you don't also do empty complaints on my opinions (Such as: Just adapt, It was only made for deathmatch, etc. If you wanna prove that a map is good, please give a logical explanation and reasoning behind it).

Opinions are fine but I don't think "It was only made for deathmatch" is an invalid counterpoint since every map in the game (sans ctf) is designed around that mode first, and it's clear from the pastebin the gameplay you're basing the critique rules on LMS/TLMS (I assume ccbm). If the complaint focuses around stalling or one point of the map being too controlling, that probably just makes it a bad LMS map and not necessarily a bad deathmatch map, for example. Though I'm sure there's plenty of complaints to be had that effect any game mode (i.e bad textures/item layouts/dead ends), so go nuts.

[PinjewIsHere]

I do believe in the idea that if it's good in a non-objective based team mode (tlms, tdm, the likes), it's good for lms and dm. It's why I don't like the talk about a map only being based on dm, especially in a game like this where team modes correlate good maps (MM9DW1 MM7DW1 MM8DUO MM5DAR are all great for team modes and deathmatch).

[Laggy Blazko]

I think "megaman stairs" are fine if there's other alternatives nearby. Like you could have a elevated area and the shortest way to go up is a megaman stair, but there can be other stairs/jump pads/whatever as well. Taking the "megaman stair" could make players save time with the cost of being an easy target or something. Like a middle point between regular stairs and ladders.
Nothing wrong with having to jump in a Megaman fangame. :v

[fortegigasgospel]

I kinda personally stopped taking this seriously when it said that MM3MAG has an oppressive gimmick.
Magflys, are somehow an oppressive gimmick. There are 6, 4 of which are stationary, acting not much more differently then a ladder, only faster and slows your horizontal movement slightly.
The other 2 rotate around the central platform and are the only ones that can somewhat catch you off guard, but will only do so if you are right next to the wall they rotate around. These are hardly a "gimmick that control your fate"

[LlamaHombre]

Did you intend on following up on this? Harsh, strong rhetoric put aside I think you would find that most mappers agree with most of your points. No one intends to make a bad map, and few maps are beyond redemption if they are given proper, specific feedback and a clear direction for how to address certain issues.

I have my own disagreements with some of your points, which I will lay out quickly here, but I am in general always wanting for feedback on my maps in core and elsewhere.
- Done tastefully, I don't think 5 is an issue for base movement speed, and that mods with higher movement speeds should feel free to up stepheights accordingly. Obviously no map should strive to make you jump like eight times in a row constantly, but one or two sets on the map can create chokepoints without sacrificing other important aspects of the map like sightlines etc. I see this as more a case of specific staircases being a problem rather than something that can be tied to an umbrella term. I think MM1GUT has a pretty overbearing set along the cliff face, for example.
- For 12, I would sooner see a stage hazard toggle than a full removal of damaging stage hazards across all modes. As an duelist back in the v4 days I know for damn sure how obnoxious some of these can be in a more competitive setting (opponent deliberately commits suicide to lose a frag but regain all their health, adding to stall, etc), but some of them can be a fair amount of fun in casual environments and add additional spice and things to laugh about. Obviously there are cases that can stand to be toned down some (I'm not all too thrilled about them on MM1ELE, for example), but I would not say that they impact maps like MM7SHA, MM7DW1, MM7TUR, or MM10NIT in a dramatic way.

My maps in core are MM2BUB, MM2DW2, MM7STR, MM7DW4, MMBBUR, MM9TOR, MM10COM, MM10DW3, and MMCTF24. I've always been open to critique on my maps, but seldom receive it. I would prefer if that changed.

[Mendez]

I agree with Llama, most vanilla mappers don't want to make a bad map. I also agree that a lot of maps in vanilla are not good for competitive play, but that's because a lot of maps in vanilla are designed for... vanilla deathmatch. V6 vanilla is more fun than V5 vanilla because the pace has been increased and a lot of the maps seem to have these crazy gimmicks that change up the way a match is played. If you want to shut off your brain for a half hour, and get your friends, you can have a decent amount of fun on some of the maps. But this doesn't feel like we're talking about maps for casual play. It feels like we're talking about maps strictly for competitive play.

Rising sand, breakable ice, lifters, pools, teleporters, and M E G A M A N S T A I R S are painful for competitive because a lot of competitive play is based on map control and navigation. In a very competitive game based on pixels and milliseconds, the average competitive player is much more sensitive to map impediments and that's why a lot of the discussion these days is about "smoothing out" the maps. Even something as simple as pits and ledges are enough to make competitive players frustrated. PRIV15 says hi.

Overall, I like the points, but I think applying these points to casual vanilla deathmatch maps doesn't really work. It would make more sense to apply these points to maps made SPECIFICALLY for competitive play, which is why I launched CMCP to kickstart the competitive mapping scene. Pushing competitive mappers to make better competitive maps would lead to a scene that understands exactly what it wants and how to create it, instead of pushing the burden onto the developers who don't really connect with the competitive scene.

Shoutouts to everyone who has the courage, passion, and creativity to contribute to the mapping scene. I hope we're all able to learn from the past decade and push toward a decade of specialized map design.

[MusashiAA]

This is a bad starting point.

Most of these so-called "sins", if "purged" from map design overall, would stiffle their design overall and make most maps excessively similar and standarized. And you don't want 100+ same-y maps.

These bullet points are really individual, judgmental and single-tracked. They don't consider other aspects of the game outside online competitive play. These aspects are less so bad, and moreso inadequate when put under this very specific context and when used in their very specific current ways, but if they are adequate within the context they were meant to be played on (casual vanilla deathmatch), then I don't see any reason to call them "bad" or "sins". That approach only makes it look petty and one-sided.

I do believe in the idea that if it's good in a non-objective based team mode (tlms, tdm, the likes), it's good for lms and dm. It's why I don't like the talk about a map only being based on dm, especially in a game like this where team modes correlate good maps (MM9DW1 MM7DW1 MM8DUO MM5DAR are all great for team modes and deathmatch).

That idea is true and I agree with it, but using certain maps as examples of this is not appropiate: they are unintentionally accesible. The fact that they're good in a different context is an accident because they were designed individually and separately from online competitive play or non-"casual deathmatch play", and were actually made with the exact same intention and context as the "bad" maps with "sins" were made for. Some maps probabilistically will fare much better than others in non-intended gameplay because there's so many and some have approached map layout in a different way than just plain deathmatch arenas. This doesn't mean all maps must follow their specific example so we have 100+ MM5DAR lookalikes, but their "accesibility" on other game modes would greatly help in paving the way for other maps to become compatible.

A much more helpful and attractive discussion would be to pinpoint exactly what makes a map "accesible" for all game modes (something I think should be the goal of 8BDM maps, despite the main focus of the base game, which yes its a strong argument), instead of starting from "map sins" and putting very specific examples of maps that flow well in a very specific environment. The smart play is to play around the "sins" and solidify "pillars of good map design" that encompass more than just one specific playstyle, rather than "purge" these details as if their very existence is a toll on the experience of the game, which is assumed to be just online competitive play.

If a map designed for casual vanilla deathmatch doesn't flow well in online competitive play, that doesn't mean it's bad. Put it on a banlist (which is also not bad, BTW) and bring forward a helpful discussion on how you can make some maps better based on good examples rather than by labelling "sins". None of these are "sins" if they are added properly and mindfully.

This is a baaaaad starting point, and would honestly recommend you to change the title of this topic and rethink your approach and rhetoric. Your intentions are good, but this is not a good way to start.

also hi

[souxd]

Thanks for the discussion y'all  i learned some more about ccbm map meta and what are good maps for casual play