Teamspawn feedback

[sh4dowpik4chu]

Gonna give feedback on a few map's teamspawns real quick, sorta informal but you'll soon get what i mean as i list what i believe to be teamspawns that need improvement in hopes that they can be fixed.

General complaints preceded by a minus, suggestions preceded by a plus, equals means it probably requires a layout change which is not what im trying to give feedback on.

These are only the ones i've noticed in the maps i have edited for PlusPack so far, which is specifically made for classes LMS so some feedback may be taken with a grain of salt due to how i see the game.

MM4BRI
- Literally just the random pit in the map only exists to screw over light teams potential rollouts
+ Move spawns to be more towards the corners of the map
= Mess with the pit.

MM7CLO
- Literally bullfacing the enemy on spawn.
+ Move spawns to above the ladder next to spawns.
= Add sight blockers, not a bad idea as highground in mid is abit whacky unfightable strong compared to most highgrounds, so something to play around there is good.

MM7JUN
- One spawn is a small platform that can be shot into from a decently safe area.
- The other is literally a hangback and camp nothing area above the lava.
= Very little can be done without proper sightline blockers or a general map jumble, changing the spawns slightly will make people crawl into these areas like rat nests anyways.

MM8SWO
- One team spawns literally in the best room in the map AND gets a window to freely shoot at the other team
+ Give the other team a equal spawn.
+ move both teamspawns to different corners at the map so the best room on the map becomes something to fight over.

MM9CON
+ This was improved with v6a but i think wily should spawn simply a few feet back above the first small set of stairs just so where they meet with the enemy is cleaner and helps immediate rollouts.

MMVURA
- The spawns are all over the opening rooms
- Your spawn dictates your optimal rollout, which is different for every player on the supposed team you are on
+ Centralizing spawns to be on the corner/front of the stairs on wily and between the pillars on light.

MMVMER
- Spawn facing the enemy team in a sightline. (not to mention you just dont want to fight in that corner either)
+ Move light team to the side room with the duofist.

[Nxbulaa_]

I'd like to add on to this with one other map that comes to mind when teamspawns come up, and that's MMKENK.

All things considered, MMKENK is a completely fine map, outside of the fact that (I believe) Light Team spawns right next to a teleporter that leads directly into the back of Wily Team's spawn. This causes games with teamspawns to basically devolve entirely at round start, as Light Team pours into Wily's Backline, while they have to scramble to figure out counterplay.

Really the only thing I'd do is move the teamspawns around so either

A. Dr. Light Team no longer spawns near that teleporter entrance.
B. Dr. Wily Team no longer spawns in front of the exit.

Thank you for listening, as I do wish to improve this game as much as possible. I'll come back if I can find any other funky instances of team spawns. 

[LlamaHombre]

On-off topic, I remember toying around with team spawns a little on v6a MM7SHA so that teams don't "spawn with a crosshair over a player" and while that's true, I stopped that, there really doesn't have to be much effort placed on either team to recreate that same effect.

Worth possibly looking into rotating Wily around the side of the building, that way they start in about the same spot but avoid immediate sightlines on spawn easier.

(click to show/hide)

[Mendez]

I think the only two rules that should matter for teamspawns are "keep teams as separated as possible" and "keep teams out of each other's sightlines upon spawning". When placing team spawns in my maps, I ask myself "what's the best position on the map? How far will both teams be from that position? What's.a fair position for both teams so they have the same chance of reaching that position first?" It's easy to slap both teams on opposite sides of the map, but if one team is closer to a higher/better position than another team, that can quickly create an imbalance. Sometimes that imbalance is fun, but I usually find it annoying like on MM6KNI where I have to find a way to reach the top of the map or the top of the green wall

[LlamaHombre]

MMBKIN remains untouched as of v6b, so I'm going to put down in writing that the team spawns here are pretty one-sided towards Wily.

(click to show/hide)

Light's only reliable path forward is down into the lowest elevation area onto the entire map, which they are unable to escape from without passing by at least some of Wily team by taking the stairs near Ice Wall. Their access to mid is either through the sightline-blocked drop down near Proto Buster, or down the hall and through the narrow door on the north side. If they want any sort of high ground, they must go north through mid/low ground, jump up a staircase to reach Flame Blast, then go through another chokepoint (either the one they are likely being shot from through, or the one closer to Remote Mine). Since the map is small, it is likely an aggressive Wily player will already be there and ready to punish their approach.

Wily spawns on the highest point on the map, and can easily reach as far forward as Pharaoh Shot and Remote Mine in the time it takes Light Team to gain any ground. Map control becomes effortless for Wily because they already have access to the largest sightlines on the map.

(click to show/hide)

This is a proposed solution that would rotate both teams around the center, putting Light closer to Flame Blast and Wily closer to Dust Crusher. This is a slight nerf to Wily and a big buff to Light, but should put them in relatively better playing fields. Wily now has to jump up to reach and claim their previous highest point (but still have access to all the perks that area comes with!), but Light has more immediate access to both the higher and lower layers of mid as well as a safer room to play from in the Remote Mine area. If Light puts up an amazing offensive front however, Wily will have way more room to duck and leave than Light does currently, as they can safely move through not only the lowest channel but through lower mid as well.

Cossack and King spawns are sort of an afterthought here. Adjust as needed.
And since MM7SHA also remains untouched, I've gone ahead and added a visual to that post as well detailing what I'd do for a v6c edit.

[LlamaHombre]

I'll keep this brief to reduce the amount of salt and vitriol I can possibly put in this post (and reduce the number of times I have to edit my own wording), but the Light Team spawns on MM3TOP could be better.

(click to show/hide)

The room you spawn in is one of the most dangerous, easily exploitable rooms on the entire map, with a (campable) ladder being your only way out that leads to high ground, with your only way out to low ground being this thin hallway towards the staircase setpiece with Water Wave. Wily Spawn's high ground has multiple clear vantage points over this area, and as you can see from the diagram above, Cossack Spawns here. Holding this room is nigh-impossible, and your routes out are treacherous, so players are forced to leave basically immediately.

In addition, vanilla players are starved of resources from this spawn. They have immediate access to Shadow Blade, but Wily is not too far from retrieving it either. Wily, however, gets Spark Shock, Water Wave, Drill Bomb, and Bass Buster all just within their warehouse. Since the spawns line the entire warehouse, the entire enemy team is likely to have a diverse set of ranged options to deal with people fleeing from Light spawn, even if Light members are heading towards desirable weapons like Top Spin in the middle or their own Drill Bomb near the northwest building. Light may be able to make it to these high and central areas faster, but these areas are extremely open and their paths to reach them are significantly less safe than Wily's paths.

I believe this is a bandaid solution with no true resolution to the problem (I do not believe this map with its current layout is capable of having "balanced" team spawns) but here's my best shot at making Light team less completely miserable.

(click to show/hide)

This gives Light a multitude of options for where to go, and gives them a spot to actually hold for some time since it overlooks mid. I still consider it somewhat treacherous and exploitable, since this high ground is a straight line and most of their surroundings is pit, but it is undeniably stronger high ground from mid's perspective than Wily's is.

This is my least favorite map in the game, so I'm open to some pushback or some "with a grain of salt" thinking, but I do believe I have some observable and actionable critiques here.