MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)

[Korby]

Personally, I'm fond of three changes that would aim to remove extraneous power from the weapon.

Increase Lvl3 Shot ammo cost to more than half. Reduces dominance in LMS-based game-modes while not really impacting its use in DM.
 Add a short delay before firing. Reduces dominance in point blank scenarios and requires a bit more foresight in order to use the weapon.
 Add a range limit. Removes cases where you get free kills for no reason whatsoever by hitting someone on the other side of the map.

I don't like the idea of removing the instakill because it gives Atomic Fire a unique niche among pretty much every other weapon in the game.
I'm also hesitant on removing its ripping properties because it allows for some really cool highs when you manage to snag multiple frags with it at once, although it's possible we'll have to remove it to balance the weapon.

Much like Gumball said, I'd prefer if the changes we end up putting in were on the simpler side, or changes made are intuitive enough that you can figure it out without being told.

[Gumballtoid]

Yeah, that's my biggest concern. In a fast-paced arena shooter like this, knowing exactly what you're getting into when you grab the weapon is super important in keeping pace.

I like those first two changes there a lot, but I'm partial on the third if only because accidental cross-map kills are stupidly funny.

[MusashiAA]

I agree with the argument on how accessible the OHKO charge weapon is on most maps, even despite its large destructive power. The thing is that, if I wanted a good charge weapon, I'd pick every other charge weapon instead of Atomic Fire simply because charging times are faster/almost instant, while still keeping a 2HKO projectile: Atomic Fire's mid charge shot (50 damage) takes a longer time to charge up in comparison to other charge weapons' full charge shots, and uses way more ammo than these. Not to mention the fact that it takes so long to build up the OHKO shot while also exposing your position to players that pay attention to their surroundings. Atomic Fire is not even the 2nd best charge weapon because of the things I mentioned, it's only picked because of the OHKO shot, which takes time to build up, and imposes drawbacks onto those who use it outside of its OHKO shot ability: a more ammo-balanced charge weapon or a more instant charge weapon is just so much versatile and better in the long run, which is why I don't think Atomic Fire being too accessible is a huge deal, but just a side fact to bring up.

The entire essence of Atomic Fire is that it's the OHKO weapon: for the time it takes to build up, anything but a OHKO shot would be on the unfair side, even a really high 2HKO dealing 90 damage which just feels like a huge cock tease. I don't see a huge problem with Atomic Fire dealing YOU DIE damage, especially when taking into account its tradeoffs as a charge weapon. If people are willing to just only use Atomic Fire, they are also already throwing away more efficient ways of racking up points in deathmatch.



If there's one thing everybody should understand about vanilla DM balance, is that you want to keep its weapons as easily understandable as possible: the more side effects and gimmicks you add into it, the more it deviates from this philosophy of keeping things simple. Durability, stamina, damage scaling, special properties of certain sections of the projectiles, all of these are valid ways to change or nerf Atomic Fire...the thing is, conveying the meaning of these concepts, which are IMO already complex, through direct play adds one more layer of depth to what should be basic to understand, and as designers, we shouldn't expect users to "understand our logic" or "assume users are idiots so make it basic", but instead to blend the practicality of our designs to the uses these players give to them.............ionno, it's kinda hard for me to explain, but vanilla tries to keep it simple most of the time, so these things I don't really wanna see tackled into core weapons. Stuff like charge fizzling out or being cancelled by damage, ammo nerfs, maybe firing delays, projectile speed or damage value decrease/increase, these are tied to the direct practicality of the weapon, without adding a layer of information that requires more in-depth understanding of the mechanics of the game.

[Messatsu]

All these talks of nerfs and ways to make the weapon worse just seem misguided.  I think what needs to be analyzed is how the weapon is broken in various modes.  I can certainly in LMS a weapon that can straight up kill you outright is broken since you can round a corner an BAM-Dead.  It also doesn't help that it's handed out to every player so I can clearly see how it would be favored.  However other modes like DM require the player to obtain the weapon.  Placement is critical here.  A weapon such as the BFG would be broken as hell in DOOM if it was out in the middle of a level.

My thoughts on Atomic Fire are to go a slightly different direction.

1.) Increase the radius of the largest projectile to match the sprite size.  This will make it less than ideal to use in cramped quarters since the probability of hitting a wall is greater.  Sure it's harder to dodge, but this also means that the players aim must be a bit more precise with their aim.
2.) Decrease damage from 100 to 35.  This projectile is a ripper and thus likely will hit 3 times to still kill the player, but glancing blows will no longer instantly OHKO on touching it.

One thing to keep in mind is that changes to weapons can easily bring a weapon from OP to garbage and visa versa VERY easily.  The key is that the weapon must be FUN to use and fight against in all modes as much as possible.

Also:

If there's one thing everybody should understand about vanilla DM balance, is that you want to keep its weapons as easily understandable as possible: the more side effects and gimmicks you add into it, the more it deviates from this philosophy of keeping things simple.

Very well said!

[Bikdark]

Oh sorry allow me to reiterate my point for you

Due to dm's unpopularity, volatility, and bad reputation, it would be best to only factor in ease of acquisition for it, and leave numbers-based changes to TDM, TLMS, CTF, and duel. While acquisition in these game modes is just as important, dm should not be given much representation.
 
In other words: Cmon nobody gives a shit about dm (in relation to Atomic Fire of course, because apparently that wasnt obvious enough the first time I said it for you ;) )

[Sonnitude]

Atomic fire seems fine to me, its kinda hard to hit with the full charge, and it does cost a lot of weapon energy to fire, I say leave it alone, or if you are gonna add anything, maybe just make it so you can only fire 3 fully charged shots, and don't get the mid charged shot if you use all 3 on a full bar.

[Messatsu]

Oh sorry allow me to reiterate my point for you

Due to dm's unpopularity, volatility, and bad reputation, it would be best to only factor in ease of acquisition for it, and leave numbers-based changes to TDM, TLMS, CTF, and duel. While acquisition in these game modes is just as important, dm should not be given much representation.
 
In other words: Cmon nobody gives a shit about dm (in relation to Atomic Fire of course, because apparently that wasnt obvious enough the first time I said it for you )

DM is a part of the game and is supported.  Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant to the conversation.  The topic is currently about Atomic Fire, so if you wish to comment upon thoughts for the weapon, (Which I see you have not done) then please, by all means.

[Watzup7856]

I agree with keeping it simple so new players could pick up on it easily.

Having it drain ammo when charging seems like a bad idea to me for it would just have the opponent running away until they are out of ammo.

Having charge be diminished when hit seems like a good idea to me, since you can't just whip it out on an opponent and have instant pressure. Although this could be a little too extreme because all the pressure from Atomic Fire would be gone. I think it should have some pressure put on the opponent, but not the way it is now.

My idea right now would to have it go down 1 charge level when a certain amount of damage is done. Like if someone was at level 3 charge and 35 damage was caused, it would go down to level 2. Maybe not 35 damage, but something that seems the most balanced.

[MusashiAA]

I think what needs to be analyzed is how the weapon is broken in various modes.

In LMS/TLMS, you only have two shots of Atomic Fire's full charge shot. No pickups to regain ammo (unless I'm greatly mistaken and used to Classes LMS, which has no ammo pickups), thusly greatly limiting the weapon in comparison to DM: good aim is far more fundamental in this mode, if you miss a shot, might as well throw the weapon away. With the same drawbacks from DM in mind, anything but a OHKO shot is not rewarding enough for full charge, and this is further emphasized given the lack of ammo regeneration: perhaps only the 50 damage mid charge shot is more versatile for this mode, if you didn't have only 6 shots of it in comparison to Pharaoh Shot full charge shot's or Noise Crush full charge shot's crapload of them. Getting Atomic Fire in LMS/TLMS is, despite the OHKO combo possibilities, very unlucky as I've commented earlier on how less useful it is in comparison to the other charge weapons: I'd rather get these instead of Atomic Fire. If we only take into account LMS/TLMS, the changes you suggested would be a perfect fit, maybe add a slight ammo buff for it.

The possibilities of brokenness in other modes shouldn't be brought upon the table as reasons to nerf/buff this weapon, especially LMS/TLMS, where everybody gets it when you do, and not just you. Comboing an entire chuck of a team with a single Atomic Fire shot, or OHKOing "without prior notice" (this is bs, you can hear the charge sound very clearly, pay attention to your surroundings) in LMS/TLMS are, IMO, valid outcomes when you take into account how, in LMS/TLMS, you have no way to recover ammo or how easily spottable the player wielding the weapon becomes. Now in DM, you can recover its ammo, which makes the weapon more deadly.











Also, watzup's idea of being taken back a level of charge when hit is a very good idea, IMO. While in full charge, if you get hit at all, you're brought back to mid charge. 50 damage is still a decent firing output for a charge weapon, and not all the pressure of Atomic Fire is lost since, you know, 50 damage is a lot.

[Messatsu]

Those are some good points.  I definitely agree with most of your thoughts there.  However, I can't say I'm a huge fan of reducing the charge level.  It's certainly much better than losing the charge completely but I think the inconsistency between charge weapons would be a problem.  It'd be weird to have one charge weapon behave differently than the others imo.

[Gumballtoid]

My thoughts on Atomic Fire are to go a slightly different direction.

1.) Increase the radius of the largest projectile to match the sprite size.  This will make it less than ideal to use in cramped quarters since the probability of hitting a wall is greater.  Sure it's harder to dodge, but this also means that the players aim must be a bit more precise with their aim.
2.) Decrease damage from 100 to 35.  This projectile is a ripper and thus likely will hit 3 times to still kill the player, but glancing blows will no longer instantly OHKO on touching it.

I really like this direction. It would be extremely powerful, but it wouldn't guarantee an OHKO on someone that just grazes it.

[Hallan Parva]

it would also be a lot easier to survive Atomic Fire if you have Junk Shield :^)

[MusashiAA]

Lowering the full charge Atomic Fire shot from 100 to 35 just means you can survive it some times, which kinda increase inconsistency and uncertainty over the effectiveness of the shot, which just makes the weapon less attractive instead of balancing it.

You can argue the same about my suggestion of "losing charge when hit" with upping inconsistency with all other charge weapons, but there has always been inconsistency between charge weapons between every game, with some losing charge when hit and some not losing charge when hit. And besides, it's very easy to tell that losing your charge when hit is the penalty for having access to a OHKO weapon.

[Russel]

The point of the size increase in addition to the damage reduction is to make it so the player has to hit three times in order to get the kill.

But with a size like that, it's guaranteed to still instakill if it lands at all unless the player is running in the opposite direction of its flight.
It wouldn't really change all that much aside from making the weapon more inconvenient to use in small spaces.

[Dr. Freeman]

Personally, I think Atomic Fire's main problem is the unlimited pressure it offers, rather than the fact it's an OHKO ripper. I don't think a size increase + lowering the damage, where it will still OHKO you (grazed shots are spared, that's nice I guess?) fixes the main problem with the weapon.

I do like damage somehow affecting the charge. Either by bringing it down a level or cancelling it completely (it really depends on how much damage we're talking about here). Someone else mentioned making the charge time longer and giving the midcharge some more love as well, and I feel like that would also be an interesting approach, especially if combined with the damage to lower the charge. (Obviously the damage should be more than just a mega buster shot. 30ish damage? Idunno)