Sc Johnson's YD patch(Bandaid (1b))

[Muzaru]

Its been a while since the last update to YD/CBM, so here is a pk3 with some tweaks to help change the flow a bit.

Changelog-
http://pastebin.com/mWrgv7an

The PK3-
http://www.best-ever.org/download?file=yd-v8b-bandaid.v1b.pk3

Make sure to load this after V8b of classes

V1b really focuses on background stuff, with a couple balance changes thrown in.
I missed a couple things in this thread, sorry about that. ;-;

[Bikdark]

Reminder that a lot of this is proof of concept, and only exists to test out popular changes suggested by the community. Don't go haywire with your keyboard warrior strats if you were already planning to do so, instead try to facilitate discussion and get 'dem creative juices flowing.

[Chaosman.EXE]

This patch isn't too bad when players are involved, but sometimes the bot AIs with this mod can act very strange... A lot of them inexplicably jerk around with sudden and constant bursts of speed, and at one point I even saw Dr. Wily jump like he was on the moon.

[MusashiAA]

This is gonna be a long one, so bare with me. These comments are entirely my own opinions unless explicitly stated otherwise:

(click to show/hide)

//MM0
Rock-
   There were already plans for changing Rock that Celebi explicitly told me to not talk about. I don't recall much either.
   
Roll-
   Problems arise when you increase a projectile's size, akin to how Wily altfire shot or old Punk straight shot get eaten by walls: this turns into a bigger problem with melee classes. Adding 2 more tics of projectile bouncing to the broom projectile is definitely unnecesary. The reason Roll's dash had a mini hop is because of how momentum works in ZDN, where there's less friction and stronger recoil in air movement, thus why adding a mini hop and increasing the recoil made dashes essentially optimal while avoiding old Roll recoil abuse. Roll was made low armor because she could heal herself through dealing damage: increasing the self-heal is a unneeded buff.

Copyweps(excluding RockMan)-
   Personally, I'm not against the copywep special weapon damage decrease, as long as the value chosen, 25%, is properly tested and tweaked on every scenario where damage is decreased through multipliers.

//MM1
FireMan-
   These buffs confirm my suspicions: Fireman is increasingly fearful at melee range, buffing him any further than what was established would make him too good.
   
OilMan-
   The damage increase is barely relevant, thus causing no great harm in my opinion. More focus could be put on his main source of damage by design: the ramming.
   
GutsMan-
   kthnx
   
TimeMan-
   The entire concept behind debuffers like Timeman is to work in tandem with other team mates. Please undo these Timeman changes.

ElecMan-*
   I'm ok with this change, other than an observation from Celebi: using flat damage explosions is not the best idea sometimes because of how their damage falloff calculation is handled vs. normal damage explosions. This is actually a consistent quirk you guys did across this patch, so you'll be seeing a lot of this.

//MM2
CrashMan-
   I'm certain only 6 extra damage on direct hit is an insufficient buff for what its supposed to do: give more reward off of direct hits. I can't recall if there's actual differences between direct hit explosions and detonated explosions...something about one dealing more damage or inducing more hitstun than the other???.......

In my opinion, Crashman could have more mines at his disposal instead of the limited 4, or a second weapon that fires copywep Crash Bombs with a slightly longer detonation delay and at a faster rate, and thus consuming ammo rapidly: differentiating Crash Mines from these Crash Bombs in terms of effectiveness should be a thing (mines could have a bigger explosions but no hitstun; bombs could have slight hitstun, lower damage and smaller explosion hitbox?)

WoodMan-
   The increased ammo consumption of Leaf Shield is a needed change, though maybe you overdid it. The changed Leaf Rain's limited range could be a little longer, the bigger distance between waves making you able to squeeze through the leaf waves is a good thing in my book...though increasing each leaf's hitbox size and the speed of the actor that spawns the waves kinda defeats this purpose, as you'd want to properly predict its pattern and attempt to go through it. +5 ammo on body slam cooldown is impractical IMO, it barely helps. Adding flat damage explosions, as explained earlier, can bring up balance issues when paired with damage multipliers: after some testing, Celebi concluded that the changes to Wood Slam buffed it greatly on direct hits and slightly on mid range, while nerfing it greatly at longer range thanks to the way set damage explosion falloff is calculated; it turned out to be more lethal than the original Wood Slam because of that lol.
   
Dr.Wily-
   Not only your choice of making mainfire shot deduct capsule ammo can bring up potential ammo desync (which is a strong rebuttal against this change, far more than balance issues), but its very concept is also impractical and harsh. Now, I'm not against this idea, but just tackling that without more thought proves to be harmful for Wily.

In my opinion, increasing the capsule ammo regen rate, decreasing mainfire shot rate of fire, and adding a suit-to-capsule transformation delay a-la KY King would allow your change to fruitfully exist without botching the class. Wily Capsule flamethrower, while obnoxious, can barely kill anybody that has less than normal armor: nerfing it is unneeded.

//MM3
HardMan-
   Same issues as changed Wood Slam regarding set damage explosions. Also, should've mentioned that the only thing that can hit airborne targets is the newly added explosion, but not the stunning quake. Also, the way its spawned can potentially make it spawn lower than it should, making it inaccurate for the purpose of hitting air targets. While I'm not against the concept of Hardman causing a tremor so hard, people in the air can feel it, at least implement it correctly. Also:

Ammo regen increased from 2 -> 3

This is misleading. I thought it meant you could fire three fists instead of two, but what it actually means is that, when you have two fists out, your altfire ammo regen increases. Please note that better kthnx.

Regardless, explosions that hit jumping enemies steers away from the original class design, just for the sake of convenience. Why, I do not know: Hardman is fine as is.
   
NeedleMan-
   The sprite on Needle Hammer, increased jump height, slight speed increase? Ok, I like that, maybe the speed increase is a little questionable (also, notes say its now 0.7 and 0.78, when it actually is 0.7 and 0.68). Decreasing the size of the Needle Hammer projectile? That kinda defeats the purpose of giving an effective melee attack to a slow moving class that can be so easily surrounded. REMOVING THE SLOWDOWN ON NEEDLE ALT FIRE? Please no, this actually reverts Needleman back to a previously unbalanced state that we rid of after noticing how Needle Hammer was too effective. According to Celebi, the way you changed Needle Hammer's projectile makes it last for 6 more tics than it should because, instead of using stop, it uses goto Death.

In my opinion, making use of his increased jump height could potentially lead to a positive change for Needleman. Needle is too dependant on the rev up mechanic, which proves to be a huge detriment. I suggested this somewhere else, but allowing Needleman to inmediately fire his needles while jumping AND slowing down his descent a-la bandaid Searchman's new attack AND a-la Needleman's jumping attack from the original game, would make playing as Needleman a little more interesting than just TF2 Heavy.

GeminiMan-
   Not even going to comment on this revamp.
   
TopMan-
   Set damage explosions again, same issue as noted before with Wood Slam and the like. Why even change Topman to begin with?
   
Snakeman-*
   Skipping, this is fine. I've already reported the fuckup with aerial Search Snake's damage.
   
SparkMan-
   Unnecessarily increasing hitbox sizes again, same issue as Roll Swing.

//MM4
BrightMan-   
   Buffing the buster is ok, but nerfing the bulbs is just uncalled for. Also maybe make bulb explosion size the same as Napalm Bomb...oh wait...
   
DiveMan-
   The Dive Missile damage increase don't make up for the missile being destroyable almost inmediately after being fired, the missile being SMALLER and thus easier to dodge AND nerfing the Dive Mines. We tried this concept for Dive Missile during beta stages, and it proved to gimp Diveman way too hard, even with the newly added mine attack back then. Please revert this change. Also, increasing the speed of a homing projectile is a flat out nerf to Dive Missile. Gimping Diveman is unneeded.
      
DrillMan-
   I like how you chose to change Drill Dig into a fast but short version to be used for quick flanking. I suggested letting Drillman fire Drill Bombs really fast after resurfacing from digging, though that was just an idea of the moment. Drillman was fine as is, maybe the change to dig is a good thing that prevents Drillman from just running away throgh digging and instead quickly relocate and focus on the fight.

**noting, after Drillman, I kinda stopped discussing these changes with Celebi, so there's less coding insights**
      
SkullMan-
   While decreasing the buster shot speed and giving barrier ammo on buster shot damage is something I might be personally ok with, the rest of the changes essentially broke the Skullman balance. Refreshing rage on kill? Increasing the buster damage? Unneeded buffs.
   
RingMan-
   The damage changes don't seem to be a huge deal, though this is a ripper we're talking about. Maybe nerfing the post amp ripping damage was enough.
   
//MM5
WaveMan-
   Not a huge kind of change, pretty much akin to Oilman's changes: should put more focus on the meat of the class, which is his Water Wave

NapalmMan-
   I'm certain the 128 radius vanilla Napalmman has was to stay consistent with copywep Napalm Bomb? Also, nerfing Napalmman mainfire? Are you serious, it's already weak...though the radius decrease hits him harder than the damage decrease. The Napalmman changes were done to follow a class design that was all about spamming: decreasing the bombs' radius means you won't hit as often with the bomb barrage, which was the entire point of making it spammy and weaker than the old Napalmman mainfire, thus making it less effective...which is unnecessary.
   
GravityMan-
   That is a steep radius increase. If it also affects other classes, then the reprecussions of this change are way bigger, especially for a class like Tenguman. Gravityman-wise, it doesn't seem to me like its a huge deal, I might agree with it...don't really know if it entails huge issues with how the attack is coded.

//MM6
TomaHawkMan-
   Not even gonna comment on Tomahawkman, ask someone else
   
YamatoMan-
   I'm ok with these changes, though the damage increase on Yamato Spear kinda worries me: isn't Yamato Spear essentially a ripping projectile?

In my opinion, I'd like Yamatoman to be able to choose wheter he only fires one speartip or three. I suggest adding a mainfire-altfire combination mechanic that allows this, where: holding both mainfire and altfire make Yamatoman fire the usual three Yamato Spear tips, holding mainfire only makes Yamatoman shoot one single Yamato Spear tip at a faster rate of fire, and holding altfire does his current melee spin attack. Also maybe let his altfire spin attack block projectiles while consuming ammo?
   
WindMan-
   This is very close to what I once suggested for a Windman revamp, so I agree with most of these changes (I kinda question Windman firing TWO Wind Storms instead of one), except for making Wind Storm ignore shields and apparently you using set damage explosions AGAIN for his Wind Stomp? Also no, Windman should not be able to stomp more than once after dropping down.
   
FlameMan-
   Effectively nerfing a class that was turned into a beast, I personally agree with this.
   
//MM7
Slashman-
   I guess these changes are ok by me, hopefully nothing you did to prevent dash during FlightDisable is bad.
   
JunkMan-
   kthnx
   
CloudMan-*
   I highly question the choice of making flying Cloudman faster: he is a machine of raining death from above, why would you make him a harder target to hit? This coupled with new sturdy armor just makes him also harder to kill. The way ammoless mainfire works now is something I welcome.
   
BurstMan-
   Slightly higher ammo regen rate is a good change in my opinion, though I don't see it helping greatly.
   
   
//MM8   
ClownMan-*
   This sounds like set damage explosions and radius changes again, refer to previous remarks on that. Also, I think there was a reason why GroundThunderClaw has more than 1 A_Stop...very vague memories...
   
SwordMan-
   NO NO NO NO NO. The entire point of Swordman being faster than average was that he is entirely dependant on melee, and has absolutely no movement options like Slashman or Roll or Clownman. Swordman trades mobility for more power and armor, true...but being unable to catch up to your targets is just something a melee-centered class cannot have. Please, revert this change.

SearchMan-
   I like all these changes. Did the exploding Search Disk use set damage explosions??? cuz it shouldn't. I feel like the Deadly Storm missiles exploding is a little out of place, though I can understand why you did it that way. Unfortunately, I don't think Jax, who is responsible for YD Searchman, will change the vanilla class to something close to this. Also, I sadly can't give you any feedback on the coding methods you used for this, as these help way much more than any of my opinions.

//MM9
MagmaMan-
   I feel like sturdy armor on Magmaman just makes his class design of meatshots more deadly than it should. Honestly don't care.
   
HornetMan-
   Wait, height increase on NectarTrapShot? That sounds silly...ignores shields? I'd personally agree with that just on the nectar trap, but it's straight up wrong for hornets. Also, I think messing with the homing command might end up breaking stuff???? I don't know
   
//MMWT
MegaWaterS-
   Don't care :^)


Honestly though, why would you nerf Mega Water S?

HyperStormH-
   
   Sounds like set damage explosions on his ram attack...I can't tell for certain, but it doesn't hurt to remind. The rest seems ok by me. Also, did you fix the crash?
   
   
//MMB
ColdMan-
   Nerfing Ice Wall is ok by me, at least where it's possible, though I have memories of Cel telling me that nerfing Ice Wall is kinda hard because it would break if you try to???? I'm not sure. I agree with Cold Field's telegraph, though the delay and the radius decrease just makes it unnecessarily less effective in my opinion.


MagicMan-
   Armor reduction? I personally agree with that. Damage nerf and healing nerf? That's uncalled for, nerfing Magicman's armor to light is good enough.
   
PirateMan-
   Good call here, I think.
   
GroundMan-
   kthnx
   
DynamoMan-
   Ok so, buffing Dynamo Tendril is fine by me...but nerfing his homing orbs? They're not even effective homing projectiles, why gimp them even further?

//MMK
Enker-
   Enker getting ammo off taking damage is part of his class design, and this theme should stay consistent. Taking damage while not in his stance already implied the risk of taking damage without the stance's added damage resistance. I don't see how this is needed.
   
Punk-
   You don't always have to match the projectile size to the sprite, though sure, the non bouncy crusher size was a relic of the past that had its pros and cons, much like every projectile with a huge hitbox. I feel like getting ammo off dealing damage with bouncy crushers is a little unneeded, you'll just regen it away, Punk doesn't seem to suffer from ammo scarcity, even with the reduced ammo regen. Honestly, I don't really care about Punk dash anymore...still, this seems interesting and not conceptually broken all around.

Thank and God bless

[JaxOf7]

Haven't played this a whole lot, but thought I should stop by.
Most of these seem to be messing with numbers for balance, which kind of bores me so I'm just glad I'm not doing that.

But then we got gameplay changes

Stuff I love:
Drill Man speed on alt
Cloud being sturdy and slow flying
The concept of Skull Man getting something on kill

Thing I hate:
Search Man mobility boosts - Intended this guy to be a sneaky, lumbering dude who keeps bushes and a team in between him and the enemy, getting caught is supposed to suck. Mobility and flight that allows him to get to weird places compromises this vision.

Idea I have:
So ye buffed fireman and made him quicker to compensate for his light armor.
Had a different buff idea in mind since I like him being a non-quick light armor class
Have his main fire shots block shots much like Roll Swing does.
It looks like a shield, Justified has their FireMan block things so there is that precedent, and works into the motif of Fireman's main being insanely versatile.

[ScrapHeap]

Can we not have Topman grazing for 20 and Crashman being god, please.

Crashman hurts way too much for the hitstun he has, he was fine before.

Topman should NOT be able to repeatedly spin past me for 20 and only have to wait 2 seconds for it to come back.

[Korby]

i'm a diamond 1 topman main in both versions and i have to say, the changes made to him were really good from a conceptual standpoint.
i really like how it shifted his playstyle from going for instakills to whittling foes down.

for a nerf i'd probably suggest reducing the initial hit down to 10 or 12 but decreasing the damage nerf of subsequent hits so that they don't go lower than 3.
another thing that could be done is have hitting people with spinning tops mark them for a brief moment to bring the spin damage back up to 20 or even a little higher.
gives people a bit more of a window to act against the spin and requires topman to really commit to getting his big damage instead of just pressing m1 whenever he sees someone

[Muzaru]

Bump for v1b
More info in the op