[Suggestion] Ballade Cracker

[Gumballtoid]

Put simply, Ballade Cracker is too powerful a weapon with little to nothing in the way of counterplay. Every other bomb weapon has some kind of drawback that makes it formidable while not being overpowered.

Hyper Bomb is usually an instant kill, but its long delay and limited range make it inappropriate for direct confrontations.
Crash Bomber deals hitstun, but it explodes instantly only on direct hit, and uses a good bit of ammo.
Drill Bomb can be detonated on a whim, but this means only one can be fired at a time.
Napalm Bomb has lots of ammo, but its range is limited.
Danger Wrap is especially versatile (direct hits, air strikes, mines) but is otherwise slow and unwieldy.
Flash Bomb lingers for a while, making it great for traps, but the projectile travels slowly.
Remote Mine can be redirected after firing, but the blast radius is smaller than that of most other bombs.

Ballade Cracker travels faster than Crash Bomber (50 as opposed to 40), explodes on contact with anything (as opposed to just actors), and direct hits can take almost half of your health instantly (48). While that last bit is true of many bomb weapons, Ballade Cracker is very forgiving in that, because it explodes on contact with surfaces as well as actors, splash damage is much more punishing. Its only drawback is its high ammo consumption, being the highest out of every bomb weapon (4 ammo per shot, allows for 7 shots).

My suggestion is to lower the projectile speed. The idea behind this is to give the target ample time to react to the weapon and help justify taking that much damage in one sitting; as it is now, one very rarely has to lead their shots to score direct hits, which is very difficult to counteract.

[JohnVyttalRay]

I really think that's the idea, it's supposed to be OP, also remember about the Police Chase, it would be harder if ballade cracker would be weaker.

[Xhatahx]

What I think JohnVyttalRay is saying is that the weapon is powerful, but it's also rare and hard to get. But still, can't the weapon be tuned down a little?

I'm against slowing down the projectile. I instead suggest decreasing the blast damage and giving the projectile inherent damage.

(click to show/hide)

Because of it's speed, players unconsciously aim Ballade Cracker without leading the shots. But when the aiming process of a weapon (or almost any gameplay mechanic) is changed a little, it's hard to adapt since brains don't like change. So when you change the projectile speed, it throws off their aim, and they turn into Stormtroopers.

But decreasing the blast damage makes it less punishing and unfair for the target, and inherent damage gives shooters a little reward for direct hits.

And that way, you don't make the Police Chase harder, so no worries John.

So it would look something like this:

Code: [Select]

actor NewBalladeCracker : BalladeCracker
{
damage(15)
States
{
Death:
BALA A 0 A_Stop
BALA A 0 A_PlaySoundEx("weapon/crackerexplode", "Weapon")
BALA A 0 A_Explode(20, 96, 0)
NAPA EFGHIJKLMNOPQRS 1
stop
}
}
Take it with a pinch of salt however. You know what happened the last time I discussed weapon balance.

[Gumballtoid]

My problem with this is that the player will still be taking damage, even if it is less than its current incarnation. In a game like this, players should at least have a chance to react to these weapons and properly avoid them. The only weapons that break that rule are AoE, status-inflicting weapons like Flash Stopper or Time Slow, but the damage there is almost negligible because the point of those weapons is to cripple the target. Just about every other weapon in the game can be dodged if the player is skilled enough.

Lowering the speed of the weapon to around 40 (the same as Crash Bomber) will still make it a fast weapon, but will demand more of the player in order to earn those frags. Though, if a speed nerf is a problem, an ammo buff could compensate (4 to 3)?

[CutmanMike]

I thought Ballade Cracker had a slow enough rate of fire and ammo consumption to keep it from being over powered, but it might be. It's meant to be a good weapon.

I would like some more opinions before we make a change.

[Yoshiatom]

I thought Ballade Cracker had a slow enough rate of fire and ammo consumption to keep it from being over powered, but it might be.

I've never found it to be overpowered, while it is pretty powerful I've always found that you have to have a really good aim to get a hit on it, due to the explosion radius being pretty small.

[Xhatahx]

I just realized that Ballade Cracker is not that hard to grab in some maps, e.g. MM8FRO and MM6WIN. Disregard that earlier comment. And I realized one weapon can debunk most assertions that Ballade Saltine is overpowered: Magnet Missile.

Although the projectiles don't explode and the weapon has a smaller DPS(42 vs. 57), Magnet Missile is about as fast and can home in on enemies, making it way harder, perhaps almost impossible to dodge, which punches a hole in the "weapons must be dodge-able" argument. Is Magnet Missile OP? I don't think so.

[Gumballtoid]

You're talking about a completely different weapon. Speed and DPS matter not when their functions and ultimate intent are nothing alike. Magnet Missile is intended to poke folks from across the map, but typically, maps on which it can be found can be used against it, and sometimes, even strafing is sufficient. I don't know how often you play the game online, but Magnet Missile is far easier to dodge than you're implying. The only weapon that "punches a hole in the 'weapons must be dodge-able' argument" is Dive Missile, but that's an entirely different beast and is generally acknowledged as being overpowered.

Ballade Cracker offers 7 shots. It takes a minimum of 3 shots to frag someone. A direct hit yields ~48 damage. It has a speed of 50 and an explosion radius of 96.

Other power weapons are typically slower than that. Dust Crusher has a speed of 30. Hard Knuckle, 38. Super Arm, 30. Pharaoh Shot, 35. Drill Bomb, 25. The high speed makes the need for good aim almost negligible because if you miss, the blast radius makes up for it (96, on par with Pharaoh Shot and Drill Bomb -- two significantly slower weapons). Heck, even Crash Bomber has a smaller radius (64).

[King Dumb]

I think the main thing here is how disruptively good a weapon can be if it's very fast. To put into perspective:
Ring Boomerang - 65
Bass Buster - 64
Fully Charged Proto Buster - 60
Fully Charged Arrow Buster - 54
Fully Charged Laser Buster, Super Adaptor Fist, Magic Card, Silver Tomahawk, Quick Boomerang, Ballade Cracker - 50
Knight Crush, Fully Charged Noise Crush, Mirror Buster, and more - 40

If you consider the big asterisk on Quick Boomerang due to its very limited range (and bear in mind that, while Magic Card, Rings, and Tomahawks also have limited range, the limit is far bigger and closer to usual average combat range), this actually starts to look a little bit like a list of the best weapons in the game. There are some things missing of course (Gyro Attack, unconventional weapons that may also be up there like Skull Barrier, etc.) but there's a clear correlation regardless.

Ballade Cracker is by far the easiest 3HKO in the game (factoring in consistency) and also probably the easiest 4HKO. I think it's fair to continue that it's one of the best, if not the best, weapon to monorun (i.e., only using that weapon), and on top of that is better used by itself than with most other weapons. I would even argue that though it requires two shots, it's also [close to] the easiest 50 damage outside of buster upgrades, just because speed is so valuable (valuable enough to make Ballade Cracker better than charged Noise Crush). Maybe Pharaoh Shot?

Like Mike said, it's supposed to be a very good weapon, so this is one case where nerfing just to put it somewhere on the spectrum of all weapons is no good. However, somehow contrary to popular belief, nerfing can be precise, so I think it's worth exploring a few things: damage, speed, explosion qualities, etc. I get that slowing a projectile down can be a more intrusive change than changing other properties, but you have to weigh that with how valuable speed is. I think a speed change should be considered just as much as other changes. If changes are made, they'll just be made with care.

[CutmanMike]

I think it boils down to whether or not we want the weapon to be a fast explosive projectile weapon or a high damage weapon, should it be nerfed. I'm more on the side of fast projectile since we have so many high damage explosives that move slowly.

[fortegigasgospel]

I've personally always thought the RoF and ammo were always a good balance, and it is usually a rarer weapon at that.
I often have a hard time aiming Ballade Cracker myself tbh since it is hard to lead the shot since it moves so fast, and missing is a huge punishment due to that RoF. If anything maybe lower the splash damage, since aiming at people's feet is often the way to go with Drill Bomb and Ballade Cracker.

[Gumballtoid]

I think Ballade Cracker's damage and rate of fire are in a good place. It explodes instantly and has a pretty good radius, so I think it ought to fall into the power weapon category rather than being overly fast. I am still steadfast in my claims that an explosive simply should not move as fast as it does because it's frustrating to fight against. Pharaoh Shot has to be charged and you can very clearly see it primed, so you can anticipate it. Drill Bomb moves slowly and makes lots of noise, so you have enough time to react before it nails you.

As an experiment, I knocked Ballade Cracker down to 40 speed (that of Crash Bomber) and I found it felt pretty good to use. Still adequately fast and rewarding, but just slow enough to be able to react.

[Orange juice :l]

There's a lot of discussion here as to how it's meant to feel like a powerful, easy-to-hit-with weapon, however this leaves little counterplay for the other player. Perhaps the splash radius could be changed such that it's the same horizontally, but less-so vertically? This leaves the counterplay of jumping in sync with the Ballade Crackers as they come.

[Soundwave02]

Being honest, Ballade Cracker is my favorite weapon of all time and i will be very sad if it gets nerfed.
Maybe at best in my opinion, nerf the B.Cracker's blast radius because i am sure anyone can rely on that alone in duels and maybe deathmatch (Just to say this thing carried me over the rest of the MM6 chapter after beating ballade and the gamma boss should be enough. Then again, the experience fighting bots/bosses is not the same as fighting actual human players.) which maybe is the reason it could be called overpowered, and i speak as a newbie that can't aim so i rely on good blast radius.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, the weapon's speed is one of the things that shouldn't be nerfed because this makes it good when you're chasing your opponent and he's kiting you with another weapon or blocks your way with something like FlameBlast, FlashBomb, BHB or whatever thing that'd block your way. Which could lead to the game not having viable chasing weapons and stalling become more relevant to the game(duels could last hours if someone's a jerk that refuses to fight or just relies on taking potshots or kiting the dude chasing him or whatever, just supressing your movement while you don't have a good fast weapon that could catch him.)

[Korby]

There's a lot of discussion here as to how it's meant to feel like a powerful, easy-to-hit-with weapon, however this leaves little counterplay for the other player. Perhaps the splash radius could be changed such that it's the same horizontally, but less-so vertically? This leaves the counterplay of jumping in sync with the Ballade Crackers as they come.

Unfortunately, this solution isn't entirely feasible with how explosions work in Zandronum.

Soundwave, I don't think duel times will be increased by nerfing Ballade Cracker's speed, especially considering maps without Ballade Cracker do not take the hours you describe.
I'd be legitimately impressed if someone managed to prolong a duel for hours against someone who was actively trying to kill him, to be honest.
Also, Hard Knuckle is my favorite weapon of all time, and I personally nerfed that weapon.

I do think the weapon could do with a nerf. As to what, I don't know yet, but I'm also leaning towards the projectile speed.
We'll likely try various different solutions.