Cutstuff Forum
Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => MM8BDM Discussion => Topic started by: SaviorSword on March 31, 2011, 06:12:39 PM
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Yesterday, I've discovered a rather interesting mode that people should look into. It's not an official mode with wad mods or any of those fancy stuff. What it is, is a TLMS done in a certain fashion. I call it Bot Apocalypse, but some people call it Humans vs Bots (this is totally not a Ghouls vs Humans ripoff and I have not played Ghouls vs Humans myself). Here's the setup for this mode. One downside is that a player must monitor the server all the time.
Step 1: Set TLMS with team selection on.
Step 2: When setting up teams, the first game must have an imbalanced team. Anywhere from 2v3 to 1v8 to 4v6 works, but I find that 1v(insert handful of player number) works best.
Step 3: This is where the server host must come in to do this part. When the game starts, the team with lesser amount of players cannot die or this step will be messed up. The play who controls the server adds in many many bots (around 16 bots usually). The bots will all go into the team with lesser amount of players the next game.
Step 4: The TLMS plays like usual till the win limit is hit. Yes, I know things will get laggy, but that's outta almost everyone's control.
Step 5: After the game is over, all bots must be removed for the next game and the process is repeated all over.
Now with the setup out of the way, here's a "tradition" that most of the Bot Apocalypse games do. Once there are around 6+ players in the server player, one player will be a "leader" in the bot team. If there is less than the said number of players, there usually does not have a bot leader for the game. That play style with the bot leader is optional, but remember that if too many human players are in the bot team or if the bots are evenly spread throughout the teams then it will defeat the purpose of Bot Apocalypse. With that all said and done, I'd like to hear what people would say on how they feel or think about this mode.
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I call that bot insanity. But is made of pure win.
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Heh. I enjoyed this (it feels like a new gamemode) and leading the Enker team to victory. =P
You could consider(remember, this is only my input) removing Dive/Magnet Missiles from the weapon rotation (assuming this is possible) as those matches end fairly quickly in bots' favor.
The human leader is also a nice addition, and imo makes the mode much more memorable. It prevents a total massacre if too many bots get 'stuck' or can prevent the human team from camping(if the leader is good). It gives sort of a 'boss' feel to the leader. But yeah, both sides were fun and I thought it was great.
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It was certainly odd, and it had it's problems (Only ONE team leader, guys!!!).
However, it is nice to change things up once in a while. :mrgreen:
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Welp, this kept me up quite late. Nothing like a good bit of chaos.
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Drillforce and Bassforce 4 Life yo! (EDIT: lol i put 4 like yo! instead of 4 life you
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This mode is cool.
It needs real ACS and to be a real game mode though. Players should maybe join a queue like in a Duel to be a leader. Alternately it can use the same algorithm Roboenza uses to select someone at random.
Adding bots to a specific team is somewhat dicey but probably possible. There's some AI issues that could be resolved with more testing.
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This mode was definitely a lot of fun (and I even requested yesterday that Sword do it again). It's hard to win when the bots get stuck, but otherwise it adds challenge to both teams. I do think the number of bots could go down by 1 so the teams balance out in a full server. Otherwise, I laughed a lot when people were worried about the GeminiLord (me when I invaded with Geminimen).
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This mode is cool.
It needs real ACS and to be a real game mode though. Players should maybe join a queue like in a Duel to be a leader. Alternately it can use the same algorithm Roboenza uses to select someone at random.
Adding bots to a specific team is somewhat dicey but probably possible. There's some AI issues that could be resolved with more testing.
*Coming from a computer coding newb*
Couldn't ya make the mode TLMS and only allow the players to join one team only, and when the number of players reach a certain number, the RNG will randomly pick a player and make them switch teams (like the Roboenza algorithm). Also, if the computer could keep track of who lead last time, that would be great too.
I got around placing bots into teams by tricking the computer's bot team placement. In a team game, if there is a side is is imbalanced toward one side, the computer would want to put bots into the lesser team. Since in TLMS where players and bots can not barge in the middle of a game, they are stuck in spectators. So when I add another bot, the computer still thinks that the lesser team need more balance. That's how I bypassed the bot placement issue.
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I remember that game, i get some fun, and we really make a server for that modYou can maybe make some ACS, for make it a real game mode, and for more fun ! Ask to a guy who know how to coding, maybe he's can help you with this.
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If you make it a gamemode: the number of bots should be proportional to the number players. Like, maybe 1.25 or 1.5 times the amount of humans?
Oh: and remove some maps from the rotation, Sav. the Obvious ones to me are: MM5WAV, MM5CRY, MM2DW1, MM1DW2, MM6PLA, MM4DRI. It's your discretion but imo the humans have no chance on some of these 'open' maps.
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If we're removing stages, don't forget Cut Man. It's the smallest stage of them all. I'd expect Magnet Man to not be very good either, since the stage doesn't have much variation.
Also, consider removing maps from CS CM pack, too. From my experience, remove Bass' Koloseum (I think that's the one...You know, the one where I led my Auto army to failure), since all the humans have to do is camp around the top and they have a guaranteed win (unless the bots have silver tomahawk :p ). Also, Wily's Kottage is a no-no for this mode (the house is camp-central and it takes forever to take out the swarm outside without dying). I'd also assume Fireball Deathmatch and Frost Processing wouldn't be the best for it and maybe Kero Palace, too.
In fact, it's probably a better idea not to use the pack at all.
Also, would an actual mod for this be able to recognise the skin the leader is using and spawn bots that are the same skin (if the leader uses a custom skin, I guess the bots would just be Mega Man)?
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Also, would an actual mod for this be able to recognise the skin the leader is using and spawn bots that are the same skin (if the leader uses a custom skin, I guess the bots would just be Mega Man)?
That would definitely be the best solution, but I'm not sure this is possible using the string handling available in ACS.
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Make sure to add bots like sniper joe/protoman/bass (I think they don't have chats, but not sure) so the bots don't spam up the chat.
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If we're removing stages, don't forget Cut Man.
Include Flash Man because of difficult but hilarious incidents last night.
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I am about a day/week away from releasing an alpha mode for testing to gather feedback.
This will be compatible with classes, but classes will not be required. It will select random bots.
I'm still working on low-end game scenarios; having 2 or more human players at this time works fine. I need to figure out a better solution for 'single player' or 2 people playing and one disconnecting in the middle of the match. Right now it assigns the human player to the Light team and s/he fights a leaderless bot team.
Things to do before a release:
Endgame scenario where 1 survivor is left on each team; adding the special item that gives some power bonus
Scaling bot levels based on number of players
Global message when bot leader is defeated(?)
Graphical polish
Things already implemented in the mode:
Team assignment is automatic
DM flags/2 are automatic - Crouching is always enabled. Suiciding is always disabled. Chasecam is always enabled. Probably some other things
Fixed the colors for team assignment, as sometimes everyone can be blue
Bot leader is selected from among the existing human players. S/he becomes the leader of the bot team and a team of all humans fight a team of bots with one human leader to 5 wins per map.
Compatibility with classes and custom map packs
I will post in Projects when I get to releasing the alpha. Now is the time to provide your input.
Speak now or don't!
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I am about a day/week away from releasing an alpha mode for testing to gather feedback.
This will be compatible with classes, but classes will not be required. It will select random bots.
I'm still working on low-end game scenarios; having 2 or more human players at this time works fine. I need to figure out a better solution for 'single player' or 2 people playing and one disconnecting in the middle of the match.
Well, I have said that "# of bots" = 6 + "# of humans" was the best number to work with. Also if there are 5 or less humans, then couldn't ya use a simple boolean for a leaderless game? Also i someone disconnects during the battle, I hope that if the duel list method works, then the next person in line will be leader. If ya can't seem to get it right, then a random person will be chosen.
Right now it assigns the human player to the Light team and s/he fights a leaderless bot team.
So Team Light is the bot team? I kinda hoped Wily was the bot team.
Things to do before a release:
[*] Endgame scenario where 1 survivor is left on each team; adding the special item that gives some power bonus.
Give only an item that can give both sides the RageRune. Remember, that it is up to the last survivor to use it or not. I also think that once used, they can not "unuse" it.
[*] Scaling bot levels based on number of players
Bots = 6 + Humans (Including leader)
[*] Global message when bot leader is defeated(?)
Sure, why not?
[*] Graphical polish
???
Things already implemented in the mode:
[*] Team assignment is automatic
Good, no more kickin' people off the wrong team. :D
[*] DM flags/2 are automatic - Crouching is always enabled. Suiciding is always disabled. Chasecam is always enabled. Probably some other things.
Suiciding should be on, while the rest of the flags are fine.
[*] Fixed the colors for team assignment, as sometimes everyone can be blue
That's nice
[*] Bot leader is selected from among the existing human players. S/he becomes the leader of the bot team and a team of all humans fight a team of bots with one human leader to 5 wins per map.
If its possible, could ya add in a duel wait list method? If there is no one on the list and 6 or more humans playin' then the automatic team assignment should be used.
[*] Compatibility with classes and custom map packs
I'd say it is the less important of all the other issues to address (IMO), but it will never hurt for more compatibility.
I will post in Projects when I get to releasing the alpha. Now is the time to provide your input.
Speak now or don't!
I have spoken
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Duel wait list only works in duel. There is no queue, it selects a person for the level randomly and that person is the bot leader. The bot team is Wily and the human team is Light.
For now suiciding will remain disabled and the ragerune item will be given to the last player(s) alive. If the last player alive is human on the bot team they will also get the option. It will be able to be "unused" for now, but playtesting will determine whether or not that stays in.
Also if there are 5 or less humans, then couldn't ya use a simple boolean for a leaderless game? Also i someone disconnects during the battle, I hope that if the duel list method works, then the next person in line will be leader. If ya can't seem to get it right, then a random person will be chosen.
There is no duel list method. There's either me doing it from scratch (not sure it's worth it) or not. The duel list is made internally in skulltag for duel mode only. It is not compatible with TLMS modes. It might be hard or might be easy to make a queue but I'm not going to promise this or implement it yet.
"Simple boolean" for a leaderless game also doesn't work because bots are treated as players. Until I resolve the other issues it will need a minimum of 2 human players to start or continue a match.
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Well well, seems our little game is becoming quite popular. I look forward to more of these matches. And for more wins for me as GeminiLord.
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I played this today for the first time. It's way more fun than I thought it would be!
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NEW IDEA
We discussed this earlier on Apocalypse.
"NOHOPE should be playing."
"What if SSW adds NOHOPE to the game mod?"
Genius! Basically, when only one human is left, trigger alternative usage. Personally I think the NOHOPE theme is great but anything menacing should take the cake. It's a nice touch you should be able to throw in relatively simply. (I hope. Er, NOHOPE)
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Sure man
NOHOPE is one option, but don't you guys associate it with roboenza mode too much? I'm fine with using the actual NOHOPE from roboenza, but think about it. Do you really want that specific song?
Regardless, that's a really good idea to change the music when one survivor is remaining.
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Eh, the Roboenza NOPHOPE isn't that great. And it will get annoying when the last survivor is inevitably camping above the bots for several minutes.
I suggest a Kevvviiinnn song. Namely, stage 32 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkQAW2viwJA&feature=related) for general awesomeness.
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I suggest MGS Alarm Sounded.
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Yes, I really like this but, I kinda think there should be no leader for the bots' team because the game 'mode' is already hard
and the leader makes things worse. Maybe sometimes there can be a leader but most of the time it should be just all bots
on the bots' team because this is BOTS vs humans. Also, I think the bots' should be on the Dr. Wily team not the Dr. Light team
because that makes since to me.
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So... It's been a while, but I still want to see a real WAD for this made!
I like most of SickSadWorld's plans for this as well as SaviorSword's...
One idea I have for this is when the bots enter into the game, they enter in one by one just like in single-player!
Think about all the times playing traditional bot apocalypse where you end up with a bad spawn point,
right in the middle of the bot army, and you are screwed. Need I say more?
Another idea I have is that this could be compatible with Team Deathmatch.
Hey Sav! Remember "Bot Deathmatch" you did/had on your server that one time?
I'd like to see that done along with this WAD!
The Last idea I have for now is that before a player joins the game, they chose the bot(s)
they want in their army. This would be pretty much combining the bot setup screen from
skirmish mode and the class selection screen from classes. Just think of all the bot combinations
there could be!
I hope SickSadWorld is still going to finish this!
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Nice bump......
SSW has quite a lot of trouble due to some Skulltag hardcoded stuff(?).
As for yar ideas are in bold, and I'll give ya my thoughts in italics.
One idea I have for this is when the bots enter into the game, they enter in one by one just like in single-player!
Think about all the times playing traditional bot apocalypse where you end up with a bad spawn point,
right in the middle of the bot army, and you are screwed. Need I say more?
Remember, this is TLMS and NO ONE can enter in a game. This means bots are included too. In short, that idea is no possible. I know that ya could spawn in a bad spot, but that's almost nothin' we could do about it. Maybe an invincibility item given to all for a few seconds could fix this problem.
Another idea I have is that this could be compatible with Team Deathmatch.
Hey Sav! Remember "Bot Deathmatch" you did/had on your server that one time?
I'd like to see that done along with this WAD!
That works, but it would defeat the purpose of the Bot Apocalypse intended to be. Survive the onslaught of quantity vs quality.
The Last idea I have for now is that before a player joins the game, they chose the bot(s)
they want in their army. This would be pretty much combining the bot setup screen from
skirmish mode and the class selection screen from classes. Just think of all the bot combinations
there could be!
That might sound possible, and not at the same time. I wish I could say more, but I can't.
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Picked this up again after months of RL distraction
Some unresolved issues with string handling but probably coming up on a release