Messages

31

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 11, 2014, 12:19:39 AM »

You basicly told me that I was wrong to excuse Uranus from having an OTK move because I said the fact he actually had one in game, but you said it was because he has the ramming attack.

I...what?!

You are saying that Slash having an 2hk (which can actually 1 shot many classes fyi, I one shotted a Junk Man) is perfectly fine because he also has the wall jump and the goo. That doesn't give him a reason to have a 2hk move, that gives him a reason to have his damage reduced, because he has alternative methods to go about doing damage or in his case augment his 2hk move to make getting kills easier then just running up to him.

You're not quite getting anything I'm saying, it seems.

I'm not saying Slash having a powerful mainfire is fine because he has other moves. The other moves are in relation to the idea that all you're apparently supposed to be doing with Slash is mashing mainfire, and that you and Rozark are talking about him like that's all he is. He had a powerful mainfire because it has very short range, startup lag, and the damage is dependent on how direct of a hit you can land (you're not going to get that 2HKO if you just graze an enemy with the edge of your hitbox).

You are thinking we aren't taking his other abilities into mind when we ARE. Stop thinking having more abilities means they warrent being stronger.
I'll go back to Burner as an example. I never use his grenades. Why bother? Why swap weapons for slow moving grenades when I'm as fast as everyone else when not attacking, my attack blocks shots, refills quickly, I have bear traps to stun with, and the dive attack which can 1 shot. And every one of his 4 things runs on a different bar.

Because the grenades do more damage, reach father, don't use up ammo as quickly, have splash damage, don't slow him down to near sitting duck status while using it, and actually allow him to tangle with long range classes. Need I go on?

If you want anecdotal evidence as proof, all I ever use with Burner is the grenades unless I catch someone in melee range. The grenades have much more use in a firefight, whereas once you use the Wave Burner you have to commit to it more due to the slowdown and the fact that you need to hit an opponent with more of it to match the kind of damage a single grenade can do. And since the attack osculates (unless you're underwater), you need to be even closer to get the full damage out of it, otherwise the enemy can easily get away from it.

Also, I forgot to mention, Slash's Slash Claw uses no ammo, his wall jump uses ammo and recovers at a fairly good rate, and his goo trap runs on a cooldown. Where both Quick's boomerangs and dash run on the same ammo bar.

Quick's attacks are also more likely to hit on a consistent basis than Slash's melee-range mainfire, and a dive attack that's easily dodged by an opponent paying attention to you. Again, these are things we have to consider. It's a lot easier for Quick to land a hit and get away than Slash.

In short, Justified is based around rewarding skilled players who can use a class to their fullest. Running around simply hitting W+M1, or only ever using the highest damaging attack in a class' arsenal, will only get you so far. But if all you want to use is Slash Man's mainfire, by all means. I'm sure the skilled Needle Man player who'll pelt you with needles until you're in screwdriver range will thank you for the free frag.

+1 developer goal proof
It isn't an idea, it's fact.

See to even begin a project you can't just not have an objective or goal.
That's impossible, there's always a reason to make something.

What are you even talking about? I didn't say the mod was pointless or some such nonsense, I said the classes have no one specific way you're supposed to play them.

32

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 10, 2014, 06:50:30 PM »

Rozark... Did you just call yourself brilliant?! And us not making a poll you want means we don't care about feedback?!

Uh-huh. Sure...

And you don't have much traction with your "player goal" idea. Quick Man's alt is stronger, but it's also risky, which is why you see it used so sparingly. This classes mod isn't CBM, or CSCC. It has its own method of play. With Justified, you're discouraged from focusing on using one attack all the time if the class has a wider arsenal, and will get blown up if you do. You say a player isn't going to use the rest of Slash Man's arsenal, but then why do they? Why do so many players still make frequent use of his Slash Dash and Goo? Because you can't run around trying to smack everyone with your melee attack when the vast majority of opponents can shoot the crap out of you from a distance. If you stick to doing the same thing over and over, you're going to get blown up. If you're Quint and all you do is just try to pogo onto people and never use his alt, players can just run under you all day and never take a hit, ether shooting you every time you pass by, or waiting until your Saku ammo runs out and punishing you.

There is no "developer goal" in that we tell you "this is exactly what you are supposed to do with this class". There are attacks and strategies that are optimal, but there's no one, single-minded goal with each class. Each class has the tools they were given in their respective games, those tools are balanced so that each class can stand a chance in any game mode, and it's up to the player to make the most out of their overall arsenal. Take Search Man, for instance. No single attack of his is the one you should focus on.   You can chase opponents with Homing Sniper, barrage them with Deadly Storm, or toss out a Rebound Sniper to hinder their mobility (or throw it in their face for a nice chunk of damage). He's not centered around the Homing Sniper, nor is his Deadly Storm free damage. Hell, one attack is going to be more useful against certain classes than another, or in certain situations more than others (Deadly Storm can devastate a crowd, but good luck using it against Sword Man or Slash Man). Or take a class like Magnet Man; his missiles are going to be your primary method of offense, but if you skip out on his alt you're crippling yourself. He's got an attack for ranged battles and an attack for when the opponent is up close.

In short, Justified is based around rewarding skilled players who can use a class to their fullest. Running around simply hitting W+M1, or only ever using the highest damaging attack in a class' arsenal, will only get you so far. But if all you want to use is Slash Man's mainfire, by all means. I'm sure the skilled Needle Man player who'll pelt you with needles until you're in screwdriver range will thank you for the free frag.

If v3c ever gets out, please fix Venus, Duo, Proto and Jupiter Bot. Thankyoubye.

Once we get all the kinks we find ironed out, we're gonna start focusing on single player, and fixing the bots.

33

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 10, 2014, 06:15:35 AM »

Yes, Slash Man has more options and a powerful mainfire... that only works in direct melee range and has a startup lag on a character that lacks the speed of someone like Quick Man. Again, these are all things we have to consider. Quick Man can keep Slash Man at bay easily, so why would we give them equal power in their mainfires? One requires more effort than the other, so why should they be equal? Why work even harder for the same payoff? Slash man's ability to jump up walls doesn't exactly put him on the level of a class that can easily outrun him and fight at a distance where Slash man has no ranged attacks beyond his dive, which requires a wall setup.

And to be perfectly frank, if you've got a Needle Man that's struggling to kill you as Slash Man, did they even attempt an alt?!

34

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 10, 2014, 05:16:39 AM »

You're gonna have a hard time maintaining credibility if you think Needle Man, of all classes, is doing poor damage. As for Yamato, are you not aware he also does melee damage at the same time, all while leaving caltrops in the form of spearheads?

I didn't say everyone does the same damage, I'm saying have a some feel of the fact that no one in the main games does one shot kill.

Uranus. ironically you gave him leeway, but not for that reason it seems.

Say Quick fires 5 shots per second, and Slash only swings 2 times per second, shouldn't both of them deal roughly the same amount of damage in 1 second?

No.

You're thinking too much in the way of click-click-click-click-damage-damage-damage-damage. We have to factor in things like how easy it is to hit with an attack, how much range does it have, how much of a risk is it, what's its rate of fire, what other non-offensive abilities the class has, etc. Quick man fires three boomerangs like a shotgun, has a good rate of fire, and in a firefight he can make himself difficult to hit. He can run circles around Slash Man, and it takes a Slash Man player of equal or greater skill to handle him. If they did the same DPS as each other, Slash Man would be at a major disadvantage. Quick Man has all the power Slash Man does, with superior mobility.

Like I said with Uranus before, a character is not their one attack. Slash Man is not just his Slash Claw. Quick Man is not just Quick Boomerang. Each character has to be balanced around their advantages, disadvantages, etc. Quick Man is fast and agile, so he's fragile and his main method of attack doesn't hit very hard at all. He has his Quick Boost, which is a risky move in many ways, so it pays off with big damage if used properly. We don't balance based on making sure everyone's mainfire is around the same strength. We have to evaluate each class as a sum of all their parts.

And I feel like I have to remind a lot of players of this; remember that these classes have more than one attack. Like the earlier Uranus discussion; if you're synergizing his two attacks together, the idea of Uranus not doing enough damage shouldn't even cross your mind. Ramming right into an opponent with his alt right after hitting them with Deep Digger nets you big damage in an instant. If you're focusing exclusively on Quick man's mainfire, you're overlooking a hefty amount of damage you could be getting from a well-placed Quick Boost. And the ability to do just that is something we have to consider.

In short, it's not just a matter of DPS, but the character's overall abilities, and how easy it is to land a hit with an attack. We need to consider all of this when balancing classes. Otherwise why play Slash Man when Quick Man can give you the same payoff with better mobility and range?

35

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 10, 2014, 04:19:17 AM »

We, er... We won't be doing that.

Whatever you think about the balance as it is now, having every single class do the same amount of damage would be awful. There'd be no point. Not even the vanilla game does anything like that. The point of some attacks hitting harder than others is some attacks are harder to land, or use up more ammo than others. Homogenizing every class would make things unbelievably boring, and wouldn't reward players at all. And how would a system like that handle attacks like Noise Crush, or a charged buster? Why pick Guts Man when you can go Skull Man and get the same result with a much faster mainfire?

Edit: Ok, I'm actually trying slash now in botrush, and with how many times Wave hit me, I should not have walked out of that with only 1/4 of my health missing.

Wave Man's attacks are rippers, the amount of damage depends on how often you're on top of the attack. If he keeps grazing you, of course it won't do much.

And Darkman1 kills me faster when I'm playing as Burner. Ok guys but Slash should be using that alt to close gaps and make gaps to let him score kills and live.

Slash's alt (and by that I mean the slash dash that comes after the wall cling alt) is primarily for ambushing, and for rushdown offense. It doesn't function very well as an escape tool at all, and there's no reason it should.

36

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 09, 2014, 06:41:33 AM »

Y'know, considering the weakest attacks in this mod are 6-7HKOs, many classes have 1-2HKO attacks, the average being 3-4HKO, I'm not seeing where this wet paper meme is coming from.

37

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 09, 2014, 03:10:30 AM »

Nothing says "I am willing to have a legitimate debate with you" like

[10:31:15 PM] Fyone: it is though
[10:31:28 PM] Fyone: I've been on servers, I've seen for myself
[10:32:17 PM] Rozark Kyouko: Then you don't even understand your own classes mod/that's bad and I'm going to sleep.

Of course not every attack in a character's arsenal is going to be equally powerful. Some classes are going to have a main weapon, and secondary weapons. In a pro-level Street Fighter 4 match, what's a Ryu going to be using more often, the Hadoken or the Shoryuken? You don't seem to understand that classes are still going to specialize in, or lack in, certain qualities even if they're not as single-minded in their design as CBM. Are you proposing we kill Quick Man's speed and make both of his attacks have the exact same strength? What you're complaining about makes no sense.

And how, exactly, is the team "advertising in an un-fun way"? Are you expecting us to ask a bunch of questions in the chat? Why would we do that when we can just watch people play?

As for Pluto, where are these games where people are cheesing their ways to easy victories with him? I've been to TLMS games, DM games, no Pluto streaks, no Pluto dominations, no one getting frustrated by Pluto. These things are why we took nerf bats to Quint, Sword Man, Toad Man (when he first got the leap attack), etc. Hell, until we buffed him with v3 virtually no one bothered to use Pluto, save one guy who used him exclusively for a month. No one even won with the guy. That's why he got buffed; on the virtually daily basis that at least one of us was in a Justified Classes server, we had yet to see even skilled players make significant ground with Pluto beyond using his Break Dash to run away.

38

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3bh

« on: September 09, 2014, 01:34:53 AM »

So... I wonder why you didn't add a Sniper Joe class, it could be really cool.

We're in talks. It's a maybe/maybe not situation, but the idea being kicked around is a pretty unique one I think you guys will dig if we can do it.

39

Anything Goes / Re: Shmeckie's Art Thrizzle!

« on: September 08, 2014, 08:06:45 AM »

I don't just draw well, I draw professionally! =D

And yes I do:
http://lordshmeckie.deviantart.com

40

Anything Goes / Re: Shmeckie's Art Thrizzle!

« on: September 07, 2014, 08:36:19 AM »

Ain't posted here in awhile, so here's the cover for a webcomic I was hired to draw. Debuts this November!

(click to show/hide)

41

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 07, 2014, 04:58:51 AM »

Point is, Quick Man is very fast, as are other speed-based Robot Masters.

Enker is not one of them.

42

Projects & Creative / Re: Justified Classes v3ah-fix

« on: September 07, 2014, 03:48:23 AM »

To be honest, in MM2 Quick Man isn't that fast. He was as fast as they could make him at the time. He made up for it by being more agile and jumping ten feet in the air and across the arena 2 or 3 times. But he's established in canon (and appearances in later games) as being the fastest Robot Master.

43

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 07, 2014, 02:43:33 AM »

Musashi, this was foolish, this was childish, and I'm damn disappointed that this thread got this big.

There's a lot of drama-loving younger players around these parts that just cannot live with the notion that people play this game the way they don't like to play it. And boy howdy do the folks at Cutstuff love to bicker. So of course people flock to this thread to do just that! Because rather than just not play the mod you don't like, and focus on the ones you do, let's throw a hissy fit!

So you're taking the whole debate with people's elaborate responses, labeling it bickering and calling out the whole community on it? Hypocrisy at its finest. You shouldn't cry wolf when you're the first one to bite.

Foregoing the fact the one-liner at the end there doesn't really make sense, how do responses being elaborate give them some kind of instant merit?

pointless, toxic pissing contest

You're the only one being toxic here. There were no shots fired until this shit right here.

How is that even toxic? I'm kinda befuddled, here. "Toxic" doesn't mean "not being nice," it means this only hurts things, sets us back, gets us nowhere, etc. How is one long thread that's no better than kids on GameFAQs arguing which console is better helpful or productive in any way?

44

Anything Goes / Re: Apples vs. Oranges

« on: September 07, 2014, 02:34:45 AM »

Lot's of words that I don't need to show that I'm quoting you.

I really don't know if we're reading the same topic here. Musashi is indeed part of the CBM dev team to my knowledge, but in no way is this a personal attack. In fact, in his opening posts he said what CBM did right, what JC did right, and what both did wrong as well. That seemed pretty anti bias. In fact, generally this whole topic is running smoothly with people saying which they prefer (which is the point of the topic) and except for Clayton butting in every time someone has a negative opinion on Justified, (and Rozark's brief yet unnecessary stuff against Dan) the opinions have been well formed, and people seem to be taking them with some semblance of respect.

The fact you you honestly believe this is a "pissing contest" is outstanding. Musashi's first post didn't consist of him saying, "CBM IS REALLY GOOD AND JUSTIFIED SUCKS" instead he talked about pros and cons with both class mods and asked what people think. When Dan came in saying he preferred Justified, and everyone took it fine. (except previously mentioned Rozark)

Bik is accurate that these are indeed two different classes mods, but no one is attacking JC and no one is attacking CBM. So at the same time I see no reason to call the cops and close this topic on grounds of Musashi making this to spite you. Because that's not what's happening at all.

What makes this a pissing contest is the whole point of the thread was to start another pointless, toxic pissing contest over which class mod is better, and for Musashi to go on an extended shpiel about everything he thinks is wrong with Justified. If he doesn't like the approach, fine, but this was all kinds of the wrong way to go about it. What was this supposed to accomplish? What was the endgame of this thread?

If you think Justified's slipping somewhere, that's what the Justified thread is for. What does page after page of "I prefer ____" supposed to achieve? Why is there even a "vs." going on, here? What was the point of this extended original post, and thread, of Musashi saying "this is why what I think you're doing is wrong." Where we supposed to change our whole approach? Was that the goal of this thread?  'Cause our approach seems to be working out pretty well for us. So if the goal isn't to make us make classes more like CBM's, then what was the point? For us to explain our approach? Because we've done that a bajillion times in the Justified thread. So I ask, again; what was the point?

Also I think what Clay is saying is the ignorance he refers to is when people make a more specific comments against Justified they don't back up (i.e. "the classes feel the same").

45

Anything Goes / Re: Class Based Modification vs. Justified Classes

« on: September 07, 2014, 02:18:37 AM »

I'd like to point out it's perfectly fine if you like CBM better than Justified. WHile I'll agree the reasoning some people seem to have is a bit wonky, if CBM just feels better and more fun to you, more power to you. We've got our playerbase, CBM has their's, we're all set.