Trying to update. Need your input!

[CarThief]

Given the current situation, i'd figure i'd try and update GVH again in hopes it'll become popular again. Only problem is, there's hardly any ideas to warrant an update! No critical bugs as far as im aware to get rid of, and only a handfull of potential changes.

I'll list a few ideas here that are likely making it into the next version, by all means give some input about them if you got any to share. Reasons for these changes are listed as well. Keep an eye out for the list as i'll keep adding things to the list if anything else comes up.

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Humans:
Engineer - Saws, when 'expired', tripped over, or used up in an attack become ammo, similar to the Hunter's arrows, but with a 25% chance to break. (1)
Cyborg - (WIP) The fuel system might be revamped to have around 75 fuel max, regenerate fuel a bit slower, up to 75, increased costs of 6 to dash normally and 10 to dash upwards and 2 units of fuel used to fly normally per... 'tic'/button press. (2)
Ghost Buster - Ghouls killed now simply give him the weapon so he can switch freely between default weapon and various upgrades. They still share ammo and are bound to new keys. (5)
Ghost Buster's useitem button will now sacrifice his currently equipped upgrade weapon to gain 100 ammo and switches back to the default weapon. Alt-fire, now that upgrading is automatic, is now set to switch to the Ghost Traps. (8)
Oh, and killing a Ghoul while you already had its upgrade will net you 100 ammo instead. Similar to how you could say, kill a Sjas, upgrade, kill the other Sjas and upgrade for a quick refill.
Ghouls:
Jitterskull - Attack range is reduces to about 3/5 of the original range when attacking recently after having 'teleported'/moved. Thus reducing the effective 'death zone' around a Jitterskull while its in action, forcing it to corner or close in on a target to kill it. (3)
Jitterskull's 'chewing' delay after killing a foe has been halved. His regular delay after an attack is also reduced a bit, making him able to attack a bit faster. (6)
Sjas - Slightly increased attack range from 115 to 123. (7)
Choke - Also slightly increased range from 52 to 65 (7) (WIP)
Other:
Trap-Tastic! achievement to 4 Ghost Trap kills. (4)

The reasons why:

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(1) - Engineer in its current state is rather... mediocre. Both in offensive combat and that he's relatively useless once he runs out of both Saws and coal for his Steam Cannon. Hence the idea of having these replenish, wether he'll use them to keep firing Hunter-style, or keep installing traps, if the Ghouls dont take him out as he recovers the saws.

(2) - At the suggestion of a friend who complained about both the lack of freedom and that you're basically tied to the ground with little to no defence against fast and anti-air targets save for shooting them this was suggested. Still being worked on, the greatest risk would be that the Cyborg just recovers too fast and whittles his enemies down endlessly while remaining untouched.

(3) - Jitterskull always has been proven to be quite effective in most scenarios, mostly due to his beyond average range shared with the ability to instantly kill his enemies with one good hit. This should make things plain more fair for the Humans, but still allow Jitterskull to do his job of intercepting or cornering Humans. Though it makes him less viable in large open areas. Testing proved this to work in 1 vs 1, while there werent any resources to test with larger groups in theory it should work just fine. Maybe this will fix the Jitterskull spam issue as well.

(4) - Hardly ever saw anyone score FIVE kills with it, at most 3, or 4 rarely.

(5) - The Ghostbuster's upgraded weapons where rarely better then his default gun, and often more ammo-consuming if they where, or specialized otherwise. This should make him more viable for offensive purposes, instead of mostly camping with Ghost Traps. Not to mention, he has to earn those extra weapons, so it should be relatively fair. He only gains ammo if he already has the weapon he can obtain from the Ghoul he killed.
Bound at: 3 (Echo, as it feels like a shotgun), 4 (Blood, like a machinegun?), 5 (Soul, same as 4?), 6(Bone, like a railgun), 7 (Ice, its here due to having no comparable weapon)
Still being worked on, aka its a WIP. Also a suggestion from a friend.

(6) - In cooperation with the range nerf, this should make him easier to keep at bay, but still as dangerous as always up close, and remain viable in large fights by not being slown down too long. Mostly a friend's idea.

(7) - The range increase on Sjas should make things a tad better in the larger Human maps while keeping the same results in smaller maps. It should also help Choke a bit with damaging targets a bit more while they are on the run or actively fighting him.
Edit: Seems the range increase for Choke needs further work.

(8) - This isnt much different from what the altfire and useinventory did before. Should allow the Ghost Buster to sacrifice a weapon if unable to hide, shoot and guard himself with traps. And having altfire make him switch to the Ghost Traps makes it relatively easy to set up Ghost Traps, as they also use altfire to deploy the traps while regular fire activates them.

If you have any suggestions to improve these ideas or ideas of your own, who knows. Know that i cant accept every idea though, it might go against the nature of the game, or simply be to cheap or too much of a nerf, or such things.
Edit: Oh and its probaly not too usefull to ask for major map changes. Anything small or a fix, sure. But i doubt map owners would be pleased about big changes without their permission.

[Laggy Blazko]

What about doing something about creeper stallers? Maybe... Make them lose health if they don't kill anyone for some minutes.

[CarThief]

Hm, that would probaly be too harmfull, they would be forced to attack within a time limit and the Humans would know this and be even more prepared, or simply run away infinitely so the Creeper just... 'starves' to death due to the time limit. Not to mention the Creeper requires some good tactics to sneak up succesfully on Humans in general as long as they're not camping on anti-Creeper spots.

Creeper's hard enough to play already, so yeah thats a bit much. Cant really do anything about the stallers without harming the Creeper. Though a good ol votekick solves these issues just fine if the server has them.

Feel free to bring up any other issues though, got all the time in the world and not enough changes to start updating. :P

[Russel]

Hm...I kind of like these ideas, this should provide some nice balance changes to help things to go better for both teams, good luck in your attempts to revive this mod.

[Tengu]

I wish you total luck in this fare. I still host GVH occasionally and I would hate to see it go completely.

[CarThief]

Well good to see there's still some interest in an update. Quite at a loss though on what else to add, any small idea you'd think is worth adding is probaly worth looking at. Even the smallest improvement to classes might help.

After some heavy class analysing i guess i'll focus on the global systems(ACS/DECORATE) instead and see if those need touching up in any way.

Edit: Trying another suggestion of a friend, if it works out it should make the GB alot more interesting.

[Knux]

Only problem is, there's hardly any ideas to warrant an update!

Well, this popped into my mind yesterday. Although I no longer play GvH (heck, it's been like three years), I have a suggestion: remember that mansion map that Mike did once for Eyesore? You could make it into an actual map, call it "Cutgoth's Lair" or something better, and use this:

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I also had this idea a long time ago, that using music from arranges of this game was a good idea since they seem to fit:

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If I come up with something else, I'll let you know.

[CarThief]

Hm, main thing i was looking for is if any game mechanic, balance, or such things need changing or adding to. Though having extra maps added isnt bad either if they're any good.

Cant say i have the time and resources to build a map like that, but yeah, if anything interesting gets submitted on the other hand...
But if you've got any ideas on how to improve a class or what might need nerfing/buffing/etc, that should be easy enough to implement if its not overpowered or broken/difficult.

[Knux]

That's the thing about the classes though. It might be just me, but you might be over thinking it. I mean this:

Only problem is, there's hardly any ideas to warrant an update! No critical bugs as far as im aware to get rid of, and only a handfull of potential changes.

So I believed that it would be best to bring other ideas to the table. Like, for example, a boss for the Ghoul's campaign.

Trivia time: Lux Quadrant (KCTF03 of my CTF pack for 8bdm) was originally a Skulltag map I made, which was first going to be the suggested map for the Ghoul campaign's boss if it was ever made. It was going to be what it is right now, except for the bases, of course. The idea was to take out four generators in the arena (which open one at a time after something is achieved) to destroy the four barriers protecting the human boss. Aside from the boss's attacks (you name 'em!), human classes would spawn from hatches at various times. Once all barriers are out, the guy goes berserk and the final blow must be delivered.

Meh.

The last time I played GvH, I didn't see any glaring problems anyway.    Good luck, though.

[CarThief]

Hm, thought about having a boss map for the Ghoul campaign but there's hardly any good ideas that could work for that. The ghouls being melee-based would easily run out of health by having to deal with everything at a close and personal level most likely. Not to mention the vastly different playstyles and options some ghouls have. While that's good for multiplayer its a pain to make the encounter equal or equally as good for every ghoul with a different playstyle.

Wouldnt quite be as epic of a boss as the Yurei most likely either, which revolved on the good ol hit the boss and dont get hit to win kind of scenario. I suppose it would just be too difficult to design, let alone get it right and have it fit in at the same time.

[Knux]

Yeah, but it can be adjusted to the needs of every Ghoul in some way or another. Nothing in there is set in stone.

Anyway, from what I understand, Jitterskull withstood the biggest part of the nerf bomb over the course of the versions. Is it even worth it to play as him anymore?

[CarThief]

Well from the tons of testing vs both actual players and bots, he can still hold his own in most situations, as long as the map isnt a massive flat arena without a single piece of cover or height difference. Take in to account the chaos of battle and his dodgy movement and he should still be fine with approaching groups of humans.

It will take more effort to pin down a human and kill him, or simply intercept him though, as Jitterskull's range is around 2/3 of what it used to be at the moment. The limited range effect only takes place if he moved recently, though. To compensate his recovery from attacking is a bit quicker and his blood delay when he's chewing on someone is essentially halved.

So its basically a bit more power and less range. Hm, havent made much progress lately though, been quite distracted with other things due to the lack of ideas to work with.
Would have loved to be able to update it again, but the list of changes is pretty damn tiny:

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Engineer:
-Saws that have been triggered or expired drop as ammo, with small chance of failure.
Cyborg:
-New fuel system: Higher regeneration cap but more usage and slightly less powerfull regen.
Allowing more use of the jetpack as a means to escape Sjas, Jitterskull or to get around.
Ghostbuster:
-Killing ghouls grants the GB a weapon instantly on a different slot. Still uses the same ammo count though. Getting the same weapon again boosts ammo instead. Alt-fire switches to Ghost Traps. Useinventory sacrifices current upgraded weapon for ammo.

Sjas:
-Rather small range increase.
Jitterskull:
-2/3-ish attack range after having recently moved. Recovers a little faster, killed enemies are chewn on 50% faster.
Choke:
-Slightly increased melee range.

Other:
-Trap-Tastic achievement now needs 4 instead of 5.
-Minor filesize decrease.

[Zocker]

Hey Carthief ^^ cool to see you still working on this

Regarding the Engineer, what about changing saws so they can be picked up again? This and a slightly ammo decrease would be good for the class I think. As for the attack, they'd work like slower arrows but with more damage and traps can be layed and picked up as you want.

TBO I also felt that choke could need a slight rework. He's fast and melee what makes him strong but also very difficult to control, don't you think you could change his movement control so he stops immedietally if you don't move it? I hope you know what I mean, if you normally move fast and stop moving you still go a bit forwad because of the speed.

I know his attack really is very lethal but what if Choke would have a big higher range, a bigger attack degree (left and right) but with less attack power. I could imagine these changes to make him more controlable, while not making him too strong.

Just some old thoughts about an old mod ^^. But to really boost GVH's popularity I think it'd need some new content like new classes, maps or other dynamics... which would be a lot of work to do, especially for a sole person :/

[CarThief]

Hm, for the Engineer something like this is already planned, though the only reason the ammo count isnt reduced is because the saws fired will not be collectible untill triggered by an enemy or they've expired, making it rather hard to pick them up and re-use them, so that wouldnt mix with low ammo.

Hm... A 'fake out' kind of movement option by stopping instantly? Is that the general idea of it? Could have its uses in making enemies use up their ammo but on the other hand... He is the fastest ghoul, it would make long-range projectiles completely useless, hm... But that is only a problem for the Hunter who has no high/infinite ammo weapon thats reasonably reliable.
Dont know about changing his attack though, i do quite like it the way it is now: Choke is the fastest class around, so depending on the area he should be able to get to you at some point, this shouldnt mean a guaranteed death. Faking out Choke by moving unexpectedly or losing him in the confusion of close-range combat lenghtens the survival chances of a Human struggling with a Choke, while not making it too much of an advantadge to the Humans, either.

Only the really persistent and good ones end up making almost flawless or generally painless kills, it is quite a bit demanding on the aim, perhaps a 'wider' aim might work a bit, but i'm not sure if its that easy to pull off without changing the damage and stuff.
Hm... Perhaps some kind of new gamemode that still relies on good old killing eachother would work out? Something like Terminator but without the boosts? Or another goal for victory but keeping in the combat as a means to get to said goal.

Does bring one small idea... Perhaps a custom gamemode where the two teams fight as usual, but with a small twist, they gotta defend some kind of Respawn portal, allowing those who fell in battle to respawn (after waiting a bit mind you). Losing the portal could lead to two possible design choices: A - they lose instantly. B - they will fight on untill the last of them died, giving them one final potshot at the enemy Portal thing.
The portals would probaly spawn where the players spawned and force on the dmflag that makes people (re)spawn in their team spawn zones (to make sure things work properly, some lone spawn spots are plain weird, or even unreachable).

Hm, though one problem comes to mind with the above idea: Ranged attacks. For all i know the portal of the Ghouls could be in the middle of a large area and all the Humans gotta do is snipe it to pieces. While in the case of Ghouls trying so i could make human portals recieve 0 damage (or simply minimal damage) from bloodballs, curse balls and ice breath.

Edit: Blah, reminds me of another issue, what could the Humans possibily use to stop the rampaging Ghouls from entering and doing suicide attacks, given their strong melee capabilities? Hm... Perhaps if attacking the gate made em more vulnerable like a 50% damage taking increase and/or minor slowdown to make sure they'll take down defenders first or be quickly killed when 'suicide bombing' it?
The gate could probaly spawn some ammo for traps and other defensive/passive weapons too, maybe... Ah well an interesting idea, wether it will work out or not.

[Zocker]

Aw, I think you are right about all that... I wrote faster than I could think but I guess you already know my infamous suggestions :P
It's really hard to come up against the sheer mass of quantity NS...