[OUTDATED THREAD] Class based modification (v9fh)

[MusashiAA]

CLASSES-V8CH IS OUT
YD please update the OP again, sorry.


http://www.best-ever.org/download?file=classes-v8ch.pk3

CHANGELOG:

http://pastebin.com/raw/ePWYaCHk

This fixes and adds some small things plus Jax's LMS Loadout into the main file.

[Jakeinator]

Bit of a suggestion. Some kind of variable for class limiting, just in case people get really sick of a team of woodmen stalling out a game of tlms for centuries or a hoard of galaxymen ruining payload or any other game modes. This mostly came up because of evil escort but it would be a nice option to have since having multiple of one class is a really strong strategy across multiple game modes.

[Bikdark]

You have a point, but some problems arise when another person wants to play a class when the current one is already selected. If problems like that reside in only a few classes, it would be more worthwhile to just hit those specific classes instead of limiting them.

We know Wood needs a rework, Galaxy is a little wonky but killable unlike Wood, and Dust (who I also know is a problem in payload) could use a mini-rework anyway (Hold/release dustcrusher like he has in mm4, flak cannon instead of dustbits, and sucking that relies on ammo but is much higher power and reliable rather than trolly (could go more indepth about how i'd see this working))

edit: I'm honestly not a fan of new ground in any sense. Infinite drills are toxic as hell, and the fact that his complexity had to be crammed into 2 weapons is a little unnecessary. I'd recommend just going back to 2 weapons. Overall, he's in the same position as he was before, but now he has overpowered drills balanced out by clunkiness.

[GameAndWatcher]

How do I make it so that the robot masters drop their weapons upon death?

[Ru5tK1ng]

I'm sure this has been an issue for a while and I don't want to beat a dead horse, but Magnetman needs his power level dropped. Last night a team with ~4 magnetmen dominated matches back to back to back. Eventually the game became 'whoever had more magnets on their team wins'. Sure it's funny for a bit, but it does get stale rather quickly. Someone stated it's a case for class limits, but I disagree because the issue is with the class itself. Consider QuakeLive for a minute. If an entire team of 5 only use the lightning gun, they are going get destroyed by the team that has the versatility of rockets, plasma and rails. In the case of Magnetman, that 5 man team is using the lightning gun and dominating. The issue isn't that 5 guys get to use 1 gun, the issue is the LG needs a damage reduction.

[Orange juice :l]

Homing was quasi-recently buffed to be incredibly hard to avoid- you used to be able to straferun and somewhat reliably duck around the projectiles but for some reason they were made to home incredibly well now. Searchman's locked-on rockets aren't even avoidable at all (barring a change in v8ch) unless there's a wall in the way. All the homing classes are incredibly good now for this reason and honestly I think changing it back would be a reasonable move.

[Ru5tK1ng]

I haven't had a chance to play as some of the other homing classes, but speaking on Magnetman, there are two good options:

1. Nerf the homing capability
2. Keep the current homing and cut down the projectile damage (maybe 5?).

With the first option, you force players to be more selective in their shots and aim rather than make it easy to sit at one spot and spam all day. Going with the second option, you have the opposite of slow and strong: fast and weak + homing. Even if a team were to have 3 Magnetmen, at 5 damage, it would be the equivalent of the current damage if all 3 hit you. This is far more manageable than 45 damage flying at you which is what we currently have.

[Orange juice :l]

The problem with option 2 is that it kind of neuters homing classes in scenarios that aren't TLMS stacks. Whether classes should function differently in different modes is a whole different matter (currently afaik there is only Plantman who doesn't passively heal in LMS [he currently heals in buckshot though which still needs a fix cough cough]) but I think Magnetman could still be viable even if his projectiles weren't super-accurate.

[MusashiAA]

A team of well coordinated players (ranging from 2 to 4-5) using the same weapon/class can and most likely will curbstomp matches back to back to back, barring some exceptions, and unless some counter coordination sparks from the opposite team. Sadly, this is something I wouldn't recommend balance to be driven by, since it could lead to classes being individually incompetent for the sake of fixing class stacking as a balance issue. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but I don't have much hope about it.

As for Magnetman himself as an individual, and most homing classes in general IMO, their deadlyness falls short when they face a relentless assault at close range, where their projectiles lose their prime effectiveness, or when opponents make use of their abilities to navigate through the battlefield and make use of cover to lead projectiles into them. IMO, I'd still consider an ammo-related nerf for Magnetman himself, so that his deadlyness at long range is gated by ammo, but damage nerfs are also an option, even though I still believe an individual Magnetman can't fend off a consistent offensive tactic.

[Orange juice :l]

Everyone picking Magnet and staying vaguely close together in a well-fortified room and M1ing isn't that hard to coordinate. I realize stacking is a hard issue to balance around but unless there's a solution, explicitly imposed or not, (Class limits? Inverse ninja law?) this is probably going to remain an issue outside of organized/tournament play unless someone somehow finds a significant counter to swarms of homing even on wide-open maps (I have faith in Searchman to topple this empire but that's a trade I'm not exactly thrilled about either).

[MusashiAA]

If each player individually roughly knows how their class works, and if their class is already simple to use, spontaneous class stacking can happen quite often and easily.

[IamaMedalHunter]

I remember an idea about homings that came to my mind a while ago. I called it "maximum effective range".

Homing classes are made to poke from afar, but there are ridiculous scenarios where the map is more or less open (or has an open area), thus giving an unfair advantage over the other classes that have to get in mid-range to attack effectively. The idea is that after travelling a distance, homing weapons don't home in as well as within the area around the homing class. I even wondered if the damage too should be reduced beyond the effective range, and it's likely a bad idea.

While it wouldn't solve stacking, I believe it could give some fresh air for most of the mid-range classes. Moreover, it gives them a chance to tackle the homing classes as the latter have to get a bit close to hope hitting.

Unfortunately, the downside to that : it turns them into mid-range classes as well ...

[Ru5tK1ng]

A team of well coordinated players (ranging from 2 to 4-5) using the same weapon/class can and most likely will curbstomp matches back to back to back, barring some exceptions, and unless some counter coordination sparks from the opposite team. Sadly, this is something I wouldn't recommend balance to be driven by, since it could lead to classes being individually incompetent for the sake of fixing class stacking as a balance issue. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try, but I don't have much hope about it.

You are correct. Any type of team coordination is usually going to destroy the opposition, however, as Orange pointed out, the cases that are more like to happen in the server aren't really in the category of 'well coordinated'. In my observation, teams spawned together, went to the best spam area, or simply performed monkey-see monkey-do. Of course, I don't believe a class has to solely be balanced according to instances such as this, but there is always room for some level of mitigation.

As for Magnetman himself as an individual, and most homing classes in general IMO, their deadlyness falls short when they face a relentless assault at close range, where their projectiles lose their prime effectiveness, or when opponents make use of their abilities to navigate through the battlefield and make use of cover to lead projectiles into them. IMO, I'd still consider an ammo-related nerf for Magnetman himself, so that his deadlyness at long range is gated by ammo, but damage nerfs are also an option, even though I still believe an individual Magnetman can't fend off a consistent offensive tactic.

An ammo related nerf is probably the best route to go if the current behavior of the projectile is to stay the same. Additionally, there could also be a reduction in the firing rate if a damage nerf isn't really desired. From my experience, adding or removing a couple of ticks can actually make a difference.

@IamaMedalHunter

That's a good idea, but not for this case. Changing a class that much inherently brings in a whole slew of new issues to tackle.

[Bikdark]

tbh magnetman is not a problem in terms of homing classes. His magnets are easily jukable, and his close-range capabilities are much worse than other homing classes' capabilities.

Dive, Hornet, and Search should concern you more. Dive's extreme area denial and near-impossible missiles to dodge pose a big problem in all maps, Search's unavoidable lock-ons and lack of ammo straight up make him broken, and Hornet's hella flight + homing 2.0 turn him into a nightmare for anyone not blessed with jesus tier leading and juking skills.

Also now is a very good time to pitch my idea to rename the current Hornet to Honey and implement a new, more aggressive Hornetman class :v)

[GameAndWatcher]

Anyone got a mirror for the Vanilla tauntpack? The Bestever link is down.