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Author Topic: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)  (Read 641 times)

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November 03, 2020, 03:56:49 AM
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Offline chuggaafan1

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Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« on: November 03, 2020, 03:56:49 AM »
I beat V6 in two nights, and I'm extremely happy with most of it. However, the boss design rubbed me the wrong way in a few spots. Let's go in order.

-Weapons Archive:

While Doc Wood+Heat is a bit obnoxious, Hard Knuckle makes quick enough work of him that I don't really have enough complaints for the first wave. No, my problem here is with the second wave.

Duo is the big problem child, just due to how much time he spends invulnerable. The Meteor attack, combined with retreating into his little hidey hole, on top of just being naturally hardy, makes actually killing him a problem. I feel like King's X Beams do a bit too much damage relative to how difficult they are to dodge, but this one might just be me. Buster Rod G isn't too hard, per se, but you don't have a great weapon for him; contrast to the aforementioned Doc Wood+Heat or Dark 4, who go down easily to the weapons given for the first wave.

I wouldn't comment on Weapons Archive much if the difficulty raised linearly, but I found the third wave MUCH easier.

-Wily Robo Iron Golem

The actual difficulty of the Golem isn't a problem, but I feel like a few of his attacks lack proper conveyance for how lethal they are. The way to dodge the attack where he drags his arm across the ground, that being "jump over his arm", I felt wasn't made obvious enough. His arm has a much smaller hurtbox than the sprite, so I didn't think jumping over it was even possible. The flame-spitting attack is much better in terms of conveyance. The reason this is a problem is because of how punishing it is to take the brunt of the arm drag attack; at best, you can hide in the corner for 15 to 25 damage, but if you get caught close to the hand, you're dead on the spot.

Terra

Honestly, I can't comment much on Terra; while he may be a bit too tough, you have an instant-Win-Button in the form of Dawn Breaker, so it doesn't matter that much.

Sunstar

Sunstar is the reason I made this post. In my opinion, Sunstar is too hard, for the wrong reasons. His big Fuck You Laser requires an extremely specific movement to dodge, yet takes upwards of 70 health off for a flub. It's enough to where taking the hit is enough to ruin the rest of the run, and Sunstar is a long fight. If anything, dodging it becomes easier when he Turns Red, since flubbing a dodge only takes 10-15 off due to constantly moving.

His bouncing move, only done once he Turns Red, also gives basically no indication on how to dodge it. As far as I'm concerned, it's...practically undodgeable. Fuck, I'm convinced that my copy of the game is personalized, since both of the gameplay videos I looked up in trying to learn the fight went entirely without him using that move. Again, there's no conveyance here that makes avoiding or reducing damage practical; your best bet is "use your leftover Skull Barrier and pray."

I'm focusing on these moves in particular, because the rest of his moveset is not a problem at all; if anything, parts of it are too easy. The floor-chaser-flame is fine, the Wave Flame is only difficult because it can nail you more than once but damages you like a move that only hits once, his Desperation Move is a joke, and him grabbing and throwing you is more likely to help you by giving you a guaranteed straight shot. Also, him Turning Red isn't related to his Desperation Move, which feels like an oversight.

All that being said, I really like how he has interactions with Time Stopper and Grab Buster, but Photon Missile goes straight through him. 0/10.

Eclipse

I had trouble with Eclipse at first, but slowing down during the Punch-Out section does wonders. Getting knocked out of the Punch-Out segment is a death sentence, but that feels intentional. All that said, I think the orbs that you need to destroy to get close to him are too strong for how many of them you need to destroy. Also, when he blocks and then counter-punches you, it's basically a split-second reaction for which hand he's going to punch with; it's REALLY easy to get cheap-shot with no way out.

Also, Gamma's movement speed is fine, but a directional dash with a cooldown attached would do wonders.

Once the Maestro Energy segment starts, I like the visual of "losing max health" when you take damage, but the fact that you can still, like...die during that segment is a little silly, it kinda took me out of the moment even if it only happened once. Instead, I think this is the point to put in a "but it refused"-style moment, even if, functionally, Eclipse's health and your progress are still reset.

Ra Moon

Gonna be real? Too easy, for what beating him gets you. Quint gets you absolutely nothing but LORE, yet is much, much harder. Ra Moon, on the other hand, gets you a big shiny "SKIP" button for the rest of the friggin' campaign up through Sunstar. Ra Thor took a few tries, but his shocking allergy to Mega Arm of all things means it won't take long. Ra Devil's biggest problem is weapon management; refighting him through Plug Man's machine gave me literally every weapon, which was a PAIN to scroll through, let me tell you. Going in through the plot and only taking what you need, he's honestly a nonthreat; the only issue is the Lightning Bolt attack, because Concrete Shot can get you to him but not up the corners. Bring in Wheel Cutter and he's toast.

Also, Grab Buster doesn't work on him, 7.8/10.

Oh, and on the topic of Quint

The Stardroids can pick up the hidden Sakugarne in the Wily Star level. Oops.

Protecting Bass to get Ballade Cracker is also significantly harder than Mirror Buster and Screw Crusher, since Treble Boost sucks offensively, primarily, but also because of the selection of Robot Masters. Astro Man can be a problem, sure, but Wind Man and Grenade Man can shred 800 Health in a minute, and your Rush Search efficiency is axed in half if you don't get the E-Tank...which is itself difficult due to being in the MIDDLE of all the action!

November 03, 2020, 06:14:41 AM
Reply #1

Offline CutmanMike

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Re: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #1 on: November 03, 2020, 06:14:41 AM »
The conveyance for Wily Golem arm sweep and Sunstar's ball attack is something I want to fix in v6b. Probably a less dragged out Eclipse fight too. As for Ra Moon, I didn't want to make another hard as nails Quint-level super boss (mostly due to feedback), and focused on the weapon puzzle element instead. Ra Thor getting nuked by Mega Arm is a bug though.

November 03, 2020, 07:24:19 AM
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Offline TheDoc

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Re: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #2 on: November 03, 2020, 07:24:19 AM »
To add my comments (without echoing the sentiments Mike said he wants to fix):

Ra Moon:
Similar to chuggaa, I think Ra Moon's difficulty would also be fine if it wasn't for the fact that you get Dawn Breaker. For lore and an achievement, you can really do whatever you want, but when you're giving away a weapon that nearly always one-shots enemies with incredible ammo efficiency, you really have to make them work for it.

I thought Ra Thor was a perfectly fine first phase (and I'm very thankful that I didn't have to start over when dying to Ra Devil), so if you were to do any difficult tweaks, I would start at the Devil (or do a third phase). I get wanting to shy away from Quint difficulty, but Ra Devil's neutral behavior does feel barebones, and the weapon puzzles aren't actually difficult in execution once you pick up on what to do, which makes it a set sequence of actions to perform, not an actual fight, and that will only take so many tries. In fact, I was fully expecting a third phase and was nonplussed when that ended up being it (not that I would know what a third phase would be; I know nothing about Ra Moon lore-wise).

I will comment, though, that I used Concrete Block to climb just fine. It's definitely the most finicky ascension weapon to use up that tiny column, but it's 100% consistently doable when you get it down. Oh, also, I used Concrete Block to block the blue fireballs prior to the fight, so I didn't actually have a barrier weapon for that homing attack. I ended up just having to burst him the hell down, but maybe a better verification puzzle for barriers next time? At least one that can't be bypassed with Concrete Block.

Terra: I honestly.......don't remember Terra. I remember thinking he was really difficult, but beating him in an abnormally low amounts of tries. And then, we just kinda moved on...............Oh wait, I do remember wishing there were more opportunities to hit him given the fact that you are constantly jumproping multiple Spark Chasers at a time. Being too slippery as a boss is fine, but then you have to babysit these Spark Chasers the whole time and it's just frustrating.

Weapon Archive: Thought it was great, but maybe that was just because I was completely fanboy star-struck by this boss's premise. Maybe it was the obvious choice, but I wasn't expecting it and I feel like I got much more enjoyment because of it.

I thought the third phase was....not harder than the first two necessarily, but not "easy". That may have to do with the fact that I don't know how to dodge Bass's kick, though. And in my experience, Copy Bot's onslaught of weapons was still something you had to respect his space with. I'm gonna stop myself before I start rambling about nothing.

Sunstar:
So, full disclaimer, I had Tornado Hold for the fight and bound "use TornadoHoldWep" to a button for quick switching, so take my feedback with a grain of salt.

I thought Sunstar was almost perfect difficulty-wise. He has so many attacks that seem impossible to dodge until you stop for a second and think them through, and what you get are some of the most innovative attacks to dodge in the campaign. I LOVE IT. Ducking underneath a bouncing homing ball, having to quick switch to your ascension weapon for the laser, and then jumproping it on his last phase was so freaking exciting. Yes, it's often manic, painful, rapid-fire and jaw-dropping, but this is Sunstar. If you're going to rock someone's balls with a Classic Megaman boss, this is the guy. I actually kind of wish he was alluded to at least once before you free Wily, but that's a bit off-track.

I'm sure plenty of people would argue that you might not have Tornado Hold, and you shouldn't have to have a quickswitch bound because not everyone even knows that's a thing. Specifically for the straight laser attack, I think that's a good point; if you're not actually supposed to use an ascension weapon (and even if you are, you might require a wall and a couple seconds), I agree that the attack is incredibly punishing, and having a way around that one attack is the difference between even seeing his next phase and just dying in the first 10 seconds. Personally I had no trouble for reasons already stated, but I feel like mine was a special case, so.....I'll just defer to your judgment there.

BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAASS
Oh, and a sidenote, the Ballade Cracker was the toughest weapon to unlock in the entire chapter by a COUNTRY MILE, and although it should certainly be a challenge, this was just ridiculous. This dumbass is charging blindly on a stage that's literally just a giant room against RMs with damage that can effortlessly kill a normal player in 2 seconds flat, if not less. I was absolutely exhausted by the time I finally got it, and that was WITH just spamming Dawn Breaker and infinite Rush Search, which were 100% mandatory for me. I would not wish this on anyone else.

November 03, 2020, 08:31:08 AM
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Offline chuggaafan1

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Re: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2020, 08:31:08 AM »
You can use Concrete Shot or Ice Wall for the barrier section, though Concrete Shot's hitbox is EXTREMELY tight for it.

November 03, 2020, 12:40:28 PM
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Offline Gumballtoid

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Re: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2020, 12:40:28 PM »
Lemme just say I totally agree with the bit about the Weapons Archive's second phase. I spent the most time on that phase by a wide margin.

While I definitely agree the Iron Golem's arm-sweeping attack and Sunstar's laser lack proper conveyance (hell, I didn't even know you could jump over the former--I just tried to minimize damage as much as possible), I think Sunstar's ball attack is perfectly fine as is. Its movement pattern eliminates many of your evasive options, so simply running under it came naturally.

Of course, that's just my personal opinion. Any QoL changes would be totally welcome.

November 03, 2020, 04:58:57 PM
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Offline CutmanMike

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Re: Thoughts+Critiques on the V6 Bosses (Spoilers, obviously)
« Reply #5 on: November 03, 2020, 04:58:57 PM »
My personal beef with it is some people stuggle just getting to the point where he starts using it, so when he finally does you don't have much time to figure out what you're supposed to do. Having said that though, I don't know how to go about fixing this other than making him use the ball attack earlier.