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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Bugs/Suggestions => MM8BDM Discussion => Closed => Topic started by: CutmanMike on August 01, 2016, 01:16:34 AM

Title: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 01, 2016, 01:16:34 AM
Just a quick dirty list of things I am probably going to tweak for the bosses in v5b.

Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Russel on August 01, 2016, 01:26:17 AM
Would probably make sense Bass phase 2 to have his abilities be either more telegraphed or not used in your face all the time.
Another thought I had was to make his movement easier to track somehow, as he doesn't seem to have much of a pattern and tends to move erratically or otherwise with little predictability.

I'll leave that for discussion though, as I don't have much of an opinion myself.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: chuggaafan1 on August 01, 2016, 01:52:20 AM
bass 2's moving background makes it easy to lose him. not sure how you'd go about fixing that, though.

i get that quint is supposed to be intentionally insane but having a full health refill between each phase and no respawn is a bit much. perhaps a bass-ish style healthbar, refilling between phases and stopping at lower and lower intervals until you finally kill him, with him actually stepping up his game between phases?

protoman feels too tanky for being protoman, but that might just be me sucking.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Hallan Parva on August 01, 2016, 05:23:47 AM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
    Add visuals to the invisible barriers in all shark phases (would the evil robot ones be fine here...? I felt it would look out of place)
T H A N K   Y O U

That was my SINGLE biggest gripe with that fight. Most of the times I got hit were because I tried to dodge and flew straight into an invisible wall (or floor) and just stopped moving completely.

Personally, Bass 2's difficulty feels so awful because of how early he is. To put it in perspective, any new player comes into Bass 2 when the most difficult thing they've done thus far is fight 48 bots in a row. (Well, that or new Dark Man 4.) Wily Capsule 7 was almost perfect as the chapter boss because he threw annoyances and difficulties at the player, but was still fairly simple to figure out. He has a distinct pattern, a method to his madness, and actually stands still long enough for you to be able to hit him. Bass 2 is a spastic little snot who flies around and gets stuck behind pillars or under platforms and has a stupid upward rising move that requires good RNG to avoid. And he has a lot of health and deals a lot of damage. And there's death underneath you.

And hell, we haven't even fought Evil Robot yet, much less King or the Genesis Unit.
People can actually get stuck here and never get to MM9.
That sucks.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Myroc on August 01, 2016, 10:36:59 AM
I personally think the difficulty of Bass 2 is just fine and that people need to git gud. He's not that hard.

However, Super Adaptor is a huge trap in that fight. The homing attack works fine against normal players because they move comparatively slow, but Bass spazzes around like a jackrabbit on so much cocaine which messes up the homing and makes it miss more often than not. I found that fight easier to do buster only as opposed to the intended way. If possible, the player should be given a special version of Super Adaptor that has much better homing for that fight only.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Magnet Dood on August 01, 2016, 06:25:19 PM
Recommendation about the shark carrier barriers: Why not just make them the buildings that the carrier flies by? It would probably look cleaner than some weird electric force field thing popping up in the city.

Of course, that would end up looking weird with the gaps in between the buildings and the fact that they're 3D sectors and not just linedefs, but I think it's worth looking into.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 01, 2016, 08:32:58 PM
That can't be done, the moving buildings are done via a skybox and the skybox "moves with you" if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: ice on August 02, 2016, 05:34:06 AM
is it possible to nerf Protoman's pre battle speech too after he kills you the 1st time? It gets REALLY annoying to sit through a 20 (or however long) second long intro every time you die while other bosses are atleast nice enough to spare you the wait
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 02, 2016, 10:47:25 AM
Will add.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Gumballtoid on August 02, 2016, 04:09:33 PM
I suggest knocking the health down a bit on certain bosses to account for their spastic movements: Bass 2, King 2, Buster Rod G, Genesis Unit, maybe Proto Man, Changkey Dragon, maybe Fake Man, definitely Quint.

Checkpoints on Quint would be really nice, too. I understand he's the resident superboss, but having to start over from the get-go sucks.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 02, 2016, 04:30:00 PM
I still want him to be a challenge so instead I made him take more damage during the first phase to speed things up and get to the juicy stuff.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: easyaspi on August 02, 2016, 04:35:30 PM
What about, once you've beaten one of Quint's phases once, for all the next attempts (at least until you beat him outright), he takes slightly more damage and does slightly less damage during those phases?

Just to let you get back to where you died a little easier/quicker.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Orange juice :l on August 03, 2016, 06:37:43 AM
Been banging my head against Bass 2 for about 30-45 minutes and I don't think he's as badly designed as some people say... although that's not to say he's not a bad boss. For this I'm going to be rolling with the idea that Super adapter is a standard video game normal mode and Buster only is the hard mode. In such a situation normal mode can be brute forced to some extent and as such only a mild understanding of the boss is needed. For hard mode a better understanding of the boss and his abilities is needed (you'll get gunned down long before you can just outdps the boss), thus should be considered the "proper" difficulty as it is the one that good balancing of every mechanic is more vital to. Might have to do with the fact that I've only been doing buster only, but yeah...

Alright, so let's consider the fight at a first glance.
Quote from: "John Randomplayer"
He's flying ALL over the place, I can hardly hit him! He's outmaneuvering me and is landing a lot of shots but I only have a limited amount of health to grab. He holds still- or at least, sort of- when using his special attacks, maybe I can use that. But all his special attacks tend to at least graze me too and I'm dead before he's at half health.

Considering Bass's character traits (hotheaded, wrathful, cocky, made as powerful as possible to kill Megaman) I've extrapolated the idea that he's meant to beat you when it comes to the neutral game- which is to say, when he's flying around taking potshots at you. On the other hand, as has been said before me:
Quote from: "Bikdark"
The fact that he's most vulnerable during his power attacks fits his character; he gets cocky and thinks he's cool or some shit when he's actually about to take a few dozen shots to the dick.
It fits the concept of Bass to want to just end it with one huge attack or whatever to show his power when realistically he would win if he just kept his cool and shotgunned you down from afar. If I'm right, then the problem comes to light: the mechanics of the fight.

The Good:
The rapid fire purple shotgun special attack.
Holds him still for a couple seconds so you can take some shots at him and is relatively easy to dodge if you're on top of the situation (which as I've mentioned is your "advantage" over Bass). Feels like a quick rush of relief any time it comes up amidst a desperate situation.
The two-wave raining special attack.
A huge display of firepower that leaves him open for a relatively long amount of time is great and fits the theme of the fight to a T. My only complaint is that it's not actually as easy to dodge as it should be, considering the same theme of the fight. AFAIK the idea is to jump when it hits the ground, sidestep slightly, and jump again to avoid the explosion radius, but it's usually going to graze you. Make shadows on the ground to know if it's starting directly above you or not and maybe reduce the blast radius a bit?
Non-respawning health.
A bit of a surprise, but the fight should feel like he's the superior robot that can and will kill you if he doesn't get cocky. Having limited health puts your back against the wall, so to speak.
The Bad:
The freefall nature of the fight.
This causes a couple of issues:
1. Difficulty keeping your directions
When you can't tell exactly how fast you're falling or where the ground is, you lose your footing, can't dodge as effectively, and can't fire on Bass as effectively. Thus you tend to feel less in control (again, your "advantage" over Bass) of the arena.
2. Bass is kinda floaty?
When charging a special attack, Bass seems to float upwards a bit. This makes it somewhat harder to hit him despite the fact that it's meant to be your opening to attack him.
Bass's positioning.
I get that he's meant to outmaneuver you, but he loves to stick his face where he shouldn't. He loves to get point blank with you on a small island forcing you to move, but if he's just started a special attack you're probably gonna have to take the brunt of it as you need to make your way to the next island. I haven't personally had any issues with him running under the floor but I've seen it on streams.
The Ugly:
The triple shot and fist special attack.
Three quick ones that are more likely to connect than the purple shots are bad enough, but the fact that he has a homing shot goes entirely against what the fight's meant to be. I get that it's probably a lot easier to dodge with the super adapter and that you can dodge behind the pillars/platforms, but even so needing to maneuver like that both forfeits your chance to take advantage of his special attacks as well as automatically puts you on the defensive as you need to reorient/position yourself on the sketchy platforms.
The rising bullet hell special attack.
Considering the telegraphing it's not TOO hard to dodge, but you're probably gonna take one or two hits anyways, more if you're positioned poorly. Another attack that automatically forces you on the defensive, but this time he doesn't even leave an opening at all, he just flies back up. Make him float in place longer after the ability ends?

In summary, I feel what Lego(?) said sums it up best: Bass 1 was meant to feel like every shot you took was your fault, and it does. Meanwhile, if done right, Bass 2 should feel like every shot HE takes was HIS fault.

...Also, I beat him first try after writing this, so I'll take that as a sign that I'm on to something (https://static-cdn.jtvnw.net/emoticons/v1/64138/1.0)

P.S. Restore health before Wily Capsule, just a Q.O.L. thing.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: HeelNavi on August 03, 2016, 05:44:54 PM
I wish there was a way to skip cutscenes like ice said but for quint (for example when he has the speech right before he dashes into you) because this can rapidly get super annoying...

oh and for the shark boss sky limit you could use modified sprites of this enemy

(http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/megaman/images/5/5b/Mm4m422asprite.png/revision/latest?cb=20060927234731&format=webp)


by replacing the green metal dome on top of it with a red flashing beacon then place them at the fighting arena's corners
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: ice on August 03, 2016, 06:36:05 PM
speaking of Bass, a bug I noticed on his 1st form, he always seems to react in pain every time he fires a charged shot
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Dr. Freeman on August 03, 2016, 06:37:55 PM
Quote from: "ice"
speaking of Bass, a bug I noticed on his 1st form, he always seems to react in pain every time he fires a charged shot

This isn't a bug. he's mad that he missed.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: TheRealRoyale on August 03, 2016, 06:53:18 PM
Quote from: "Dr. Freeman"
he missed.
poor of him. you mm9 team could added some extra speech when you lose to him.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Gothic on August 03, 2016, 08:32:38 PM
My only suggestion for the Quint battle is that the conveyor belts on Solar Man stage could be more clear on which direction they are pushing, because they have the exact same animation.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: PressStart on August 03, 2016, 11:54:19 PM
I am a horrible player and will probably get booed for my suggestion, but HERE GOES:

Have all bosses give more breathing room/a chance to attack back after they're done with one of their attack routines.

Again, I understand a lot of players here like challenge so I understand totally ignoring this suggestion, but it's something I honestly feel would help more casual players (like myself lol).

ESPECIALLY with Bass 2, and how you can't simply track and fire while you dodge (because he's EVERYWHERE and you have to watch your footing too), having him jus sit in a spot for a bit after he finishes his attack would give players a chance to hurt him and not worry about dodging for a bit. I think the bosses already do this a bit, so really I'm only asking that they do it longer (because some fights seriously feel like they jus NEVER stop attacking).

You could also have them only start doing this after a minute or so- casual players would have to just dodge until they get to that point, while advanced players could see it as a speedrun challenge and finish the fight before it becomes "dumbed down".
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Bikdark on August 04, 2016, 03:58:50 AM
swooping in to say no nerfs to quint should happen. he needs to take 6 hours minimum to beat.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 04, 2016, 11:17:14 AM
He ain't getting one except the first phase he takes a little extra damage than usual.

Quote
What about, once you've beaten one of Quint's phases once, for all the next attempts (at least until you beat him outright), he takes slightly more damage and does slightly less damage during those phases?

If I do this I may as well concede the fact he's meant to be a superboss and just give him checkpoints which I really don't want to do.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Dark Phil on August 04, 2016, 07:40:24 PM
Hey, is the Wily capsule supposed to appear after you beat Bass? I've beaten him twice and he has not appeared either time.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: GameAndWatcher on August 04, 2016, 07:58:22 PM
Quote from: "Dark Phil"
Hey, is the Wily capsule supposed to appear after you beat Bass? I've beaten him twice and he has not appeared either time.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Dark Phil on August 04, 2016, 08:01:17 PM
Thanks
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Goomba98 on August 04, 2016, 10:53:21 PM
Make it so, if you die during the Changkey Dragon phase of the Mega Mech Shark or later, you keep the E-tank you picked up during phase 2.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Gumballtoid on August 05, 2016, 03:22:13 AM
I think the E-Tank is a little reprieve for the player after beating two phases of the boss. If you die to the Changkey Dragon, you'll respawn at full health anyway.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Stardust on August 05, 2016, 07:29:24 AM
Please don't nerf Quint. If you're going to nerf Bass the robo Shark and everyone else fine ok but don't nerf Quint. We need at least 1 boss that is actually hard and challenging, plus since he's the "secret" boss (as in, not an "official boss needed to finish the campaign"), you should go more harsh on his difficulty, since you don't "have to" fight him. It's the point of secret bosses to be hellish hard. Nerfing him defeats that point. No nerf for him pls. Except spawning a bit further in the 4th phase, yeah this is fine, it's rather a fix than a nerf
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: chuggaafan1 on August 05, 2016, 09:12:21 PM
i take back what i said earlier. don't nerf quint, unless you add a new superboss that requires you to beat quint first.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: NES Boy on August 07, 2016, 03:25:38 PM
I noticed that the Mega Man 4 final boss theme (MM4BOSS2) is in the game, but unused. I suggest that for the Met Daddy boss, you change the intro cutscene music from MM3BOSS2 to MM4BOSS, then have MM4BOSS2 play for the actual fight.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on August 07, 2016, 04:55:44 PM
The reason I never used that song is because it sounds WAY too good for a normal boss fight. It just sounds so... "Wily". I may end up using it later for something.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: GameAndWatcher on August 07, 2016, 07:43:16 PM
Quote from: CutmanMike on August 07, 2016, 04:55:44 PM
The reason I never used that song is because it sounds WAY too good for a normal boss fight. It just sounds so... "Wily". I may end up using it later for something.
But Met Daddy is often considered one of the hardest bosses in the MM1-6 campaign. I honestly don't see anything wrong with giving him MM4BOSS2. Besides, there's plenty of other fitting songs for future "Wily Battles" (see Mega Man IV's Wily Boss theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Npi-q8dVUug) and Mega Man 10's Wily Capsule theme (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jdYW6Z5WoRA)), assuming that Wily will be a future boss within future versions of 8BDM.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: fortegigasgospel on August 07, 2016, 08:28:49 PM
MM4 Wily Capsule theme is like, a 12 second loop. You don't want that playing for the entirety of Met Daddy.
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Bikdark on August 08, 2016, 12:13:24 AM
Quote from: GameAndWatcher on August 07, 2016, 07:43:16 PM
But Met Daddy is often considered one of the hardest bosses in the MM1-6 campaign.

I'm sorry what

he's literally the easiest
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Astro Seraphim on August 08, 2016, 07:07:20 PM
Quote from: Bikdark on August 08, 2016, 12:13:24 AM
Quote from: GameAndWatcher on August 07, 2016, 07:43:16 PM
But Met Daddy is often considered one of the hardest bosses in the MM1-6 campaign.

I'm sorry what

he's literally the easiest

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: chuggaafan1 on August 08, 2016, 09:12:31 PM
yellow devil is a battle of tedium, but yeah, dozer and the doc squad are far easier

the met daddy has a literal instakill attack and screwy hitboxes
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: LemonPig on August 20, 2016, 12:59:00 AM
coughcough darkman4 coughcough
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: Raze on August 22, 2016, 11:09:44 AM
Hardest boss?
Protoman, next to Mega Mech Shark. Mainly because of the Framerate spike down to 30 Frames per second instead of 60. It makes my game run choppily. I would probably be able to run it somewhat easy otherwise. But it's a bit of fake difficulty because of that.

Aside from that? The difficulty in general did spike in the bosses, but... they aren't too bad if you understand how to face them. I should probably place a spoiler from easiest to hardest.

(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on September 13, 2016, 01:20:06 PM
It turns out I will nerf Quint slightly. Here is an early preview of the changes I've made thus far.

Bass:
* Various slight nerfs.
* Added a new attack which allows you to get more shots in.

Proto Man:
* Added a checkpoint after Proto Man's dialogue.
* Now faces you and has a slight delay when he's about to do a "juke shot".

Mega Mech Shark:
* Added checkpoints for all Shark phases.
* Added visual player boundries for each Shark phase.
* Sharkjoe slightly less vulnerable to Laser Trident (still strong.)
* Shark's Health missiles no longer drop health if they hit you.
* Shark missile patterns are less obnoxious with their combinations.
* Shark missile phase now loops correctly so you cannot farm infinite health.
* Sky floor no longer thrusts you backwards in Shark phase 1.
* Changkey Dragon's bones no longer have a hitbox.
* Changkey Dragon's fireballs now only spawn 2 trails instead of infinite.
* Shark mouth now stays open for longer after a laser pattern allowing for extra damage (slightly increased defense versus weapons because of this).
* Shark yellow laser pattern now fires 2 spinners at once with an increased delay between them.

Quint:
* Adjusted the fast stomp attack for less one-hit-death situations.
* Quint takes additional damage in Phase 1.
* Cars in the MMX phase spawn less frequently.
* The first Car in the MMX phase always drops a Big Health.
* Moved the player spawn slightly away from the edge in the MMX phase.

Police Chase:
* ??? now gives the player health before the bumbi copters are introduced rather than after that phase.

Older bosses are getting some changes too but I will not list them here. If you have some feedback on those let me know here!
Title: Re: V5b boss suggestions (spoiler warning)
Post by: CutmanMike on September 25, 2016, 05:04:04 PM
Moved to closed for now.