MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[King Dumb]

Hello, everyone!

First, I'd like you all to know that I have very high goals for v5. We have a great dev team making a great game for a great community, and I want version 5 to be the absolute best yet, in every aspect! That means we'll need help from all of you, and this thread is part of that.

You may remember this thread from the days of v4 development. Like that one, this thread is here for you to provide your feedback on existing maps in the core and tell us what you'd like to see changed! We in the dev team of course have our own ideas as to what maps need attention (and what degree of attention they need), but we'd like to hear what the community thinks as well. So this is the thread for you to bring your map-related concerns to our attention. (Meaning, such posts should go here as opposed to the v5 thread; that thread is for general questions or comments about the to-be content).

Some guidelines to follow:
-Both popular support and supported reasoning are important if you want the changes you suggest to be implemented. Posts like this or like this are good examples, but even each of those have their shortcomings (ie, I didn't use any screenshots). Also, your posts don't have to be super long to be productive. Specificity is most important.
-Both pointing out existing problems, and suggesting changes and fixes, are important.
-Feel free to comment about CTF maps as well as DM maps!
-I shouldn't have to say this, but complain about maps, not mappers, please!
-Know that I, Korby, and many others on the dev team already have a lot of ideas for fixes and changes; this thread is for popular feedback for us to consider in addition or instead!

Finally, though you are certainly free to comment about any maps, it's only fair of me to let you all know that we have already placed some maps in the queue for repairs or more, particularly maps from Mega Man 7, so do look forward to that. Maybe you'll even see a screenshot about that sometime soon...

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And with that, this thread is for you! Please share any concerns, complaints, recommendations, etc., for any existing core maps! If this thread gets too inactive, I'll start asking for comments about specific maps that we want community feedback on.

[Emmanuelf06]

What about mm2bub ? If you add a normal part with the spikes on the ceiling? (not just corridors in water? Could be more fun, maybe add the fish of mm2 too on the background?
Diveman map, but i have no idea how you can make it better...

[Dr. Freeman]

Dive Man
Ooh baby Dive Man. He's the big one right now.

I really can't think of a lot of good things to say about this stage. It's better than it was in V1 (or V2, I forget when it had its minor changes) but as it stands, it simply isn't a fun map to play on in well, any game mode.

Most of this problem in my opinion stems from the outdoors area, as it feels incredibly unfocused. There is barely any flat stable ground to actually have a fight on. Elevation changes are everywhere (and have to be jumped over in almost every case, if not every case) so there isn't a lot of good ground to actually do any fighting. It's like someone just put RNG for the height elevation and called it a day. The low ground below the Astro Crush pillar is really pointless and basically a trap (four small weapon energy pellets in DM. Great.) And oddly enough, even though the map is technically in the open, all the pillars and elevation changes makes it feel so very cramped.

 That said, this entire map is underwater, and unlike Bubble Man (which has its fair share of problems, but I would play on Bubble over Dive on any day) there basically is no limit or ceiling or anything, so you can jump super high with absolutely no limits, which often means that when combined with the very uneven and messy terrain, nine times out of ten the battles are happening completely in the air, and with the lower gravity that comes with being underwater, this just feels sloppy. I really can't think of a better word outside of that. It just feels like a sloppy mess, and a rather unfun one at that.
The indoors area isn't as bad as the rest of the map as it actually gives you a little bit of space to move but it has its weird design choices in DM (super freebie W-Tank, super easy to get DIVE MISSILE)

On the upper side of things are Moby. He's a neatish gimmick I guess.
And that's it for that.

So how would things be fixed?

The outdoors area in my opinion basically needs to be remade from scratch. Some of the pillars are good, they're part of the stage, yes, but they have no reason to be literally everywhere. Actually make it possible to someone to move to Point A to Point B without jumping 20 times very slowly, as a result, the map probably wouldn't be a big open circle (well open without all the pillars and stuff) and this would give a chance to take a page out of Megaman 4 itself and include an above land section, not only for some variety, but it could probably help out with the flow of making the underwater section actually playable.

The current indoors section is decent, but can be improved and expanded upon, especially if some above water variation was added with the indoors things acting as a pretty good transition from below to above. Plus it could make a weapon as stupid as Dive Missile actually require a challenge to obtain it. A christmas miracle.

I'm really not great at summing up my thoughts, so I hope this did a proper enough job. If there's anything specific I said that makes you say "what the hell Freeman" I can probably try to clarify more.

There are some other maps that are probably problems (Wave, Gyro, Magic, Mus) but I have a lot less to say about that and I'm sure other people can sum it up miles better than I can.

[BiscuitSlash]

I second what Dr. Freeman says. MM4DIV is one of the very few maps in the core game that I dislike, in fact it's the only map I can currently think of that I dislike. I simply never got any proper enjoyment out of it. Dr. Freeman already said how to go about improving it an I don't need to repeat it.

Bubbleman's map always felt like a weird one to me, although I understand that map was difficult to make well, due to the lack of textures. However I do feel like MM2BUBX (the remixed map that Beed28 made) could either give inspiration for improvements or replace the existing map, as it seems like a superior version to the original. MM2BUBX had more going for it such as including the overground section and waterfall from Bubbleman's original stage in MM2, along with it playing better for battle scenarios. Sorry if this map was already changed. Been hard to keep track.

Also, I remember there being a thread that YD/Max/Maxine made that suggested making a lot of the maps more lively by adding more of the enemies from the original games. A number of the maps do have these, but a lot more of them could have more of the stage enemies be watching the fight, flying over the map, or just minding their own business. I feel like this is a really worthwhile idea and should really be worth considering for v5.

[Kapus]

MMBMUS sucks

[Megaman94]

MMBMUS sucks

I think MMBMUS is fine.

Maps that Need Work:

MM7SLA: Most of the bots get stuck in the river and because they can't cross the line, they pile up near the edge making it easy to frag them.

MM3SPA: This map is way too small!!. I find it too cramped for any game mode. (Except duel)

MM4DIV: I am beginning to not like this map as much. It is just too cramped with all the different floor heights. Also I feel Dive Missile should not be that easy to get on that map. It is a homing weapon after all.

MMBCOL: It is way to easy to get Thunder Bolt, a overpowered weapon that frags anyone in 2-3 hits.

MM7DW4: I always see bots fall to where Guts Man G is, making it way to easy to win on that map.

MM5WAV: Oh god, this map. I don't like this map before, and I don't like it now. I don't like the water bike gimmick.

MM5STA: Too easy to get Astro Crush. You put a Treble Boost nearby, making easy to get an overpowered weapon.

[Rozark]

MMBCOL: It is way to easy to get Thunder Bolt, a overpowered weapon that frags anyone in 2-3 hits.

Thunder Bolt does 25 damage iirc; always resulting in 4hkos unless you somehow get the double hit.
It's also in quite a fine spot right now but w/e.

Anyways that's not why I'm here.

MM2CRA: All routes around this map are extremely predictable, resulting in an uninteresting layout. The challenge to fixing this would be working around the textures while adding alternative routes to areas. A well placed teleporter -could- potentially fix this entire thing along with a path edit.

MM2BUB: Wasted potential. This stage is a labyrinth of hallways which results in an uninteresting layout while the wall spikes are in bad taste. Requires a new layout, preferably with an above water section as well as an underwater section.

MM2QUI: The Quickbeams are too intrusive on map flow. Would require a new layout or less intrusive Quickbeams.

MM4DIV: Wasted potential. It's also incredibly open for a map centered around Dive Missle while having a considerate amount of elevation change (Not to mention low gravity makes things super hell). Would require both an above water and below water section in the new layout along with designing it around Dive Missle not being overwhelming to fight against it. (I've often times imagined MMWTMWS as what MM4DIV could've become)

MM5WAV: The map is too focused on Wavebikes and less on flow. Keep the current layout, however, bridges need to exist between the main island and the outer ones. Keep Wavebikes as an alternative, faster means of travel.

MM5GYR: Open and large in the most literal sense and next to no cover anywhere; homing weapons absolutely destroy here (although more offenders exist). Would require a new layout that's better invested in Gyro/Jump pads.

MM6WIN: Layout resembles a CTF map and not a DM map. Would require a teleporter to connect both sides of the map.

MMBMUS: A rather lazy way of height variation. The Blizzardman room is absolute hell. The map is rather open for something that's supposed to be enclosed. Would require a new layout.

MMBMAG: Needlessly open and the buildings off to the side are boring and tacked on. Would require a new layout.

[Megaman94]

MM5WAV: The map is too focused on Wavebikes and less on flow. Keep the current layout, however, bridges need to exist between the main island and the outer ones. Keep Wavebikes as an alternative, faster means of travel.

I was thinking something like MM5WAVX from the CSCM Map pack.

[fortegigasgospel]

MM5WAV: The map is too focused on Wavebikes and less on flow. Keep the current layout, however, bridges need to exist between the main island and the outer ones. Keep Wavebikes as an alternative, faster means of travel.

I made a potentially good way to come about this (imo) by having the bridges inclosed and lower then the platforms, this way they aren't as easily bullet walled, possible even having bike tubes on the sides for easy escape for people who are pinned inside.
Would just require a bit of 3D floor magic to pull off.

[BiscuitSlash]

I honestly really like MMBMUS and see no issue with it at all. Also never had a problem with MM2QUI, as if I approached a path with a laser currently going through it, I'd often take a different path instead to keep up the pace as opposed to just wait.

However I do kinda agree with MM5GYR. I've always felt like a map for Gyroman could have a lot more going for it personally. It should be a sky based level surrounded by abysses obviously, but I'd personally like to see a version that includes more fighting ground and some features from the original stage such as those falling platforms and maybe the elevators.

Also now that I really think about it, I was never too interested in MM6WIN. Not much about the layout ever really stood out to me and there wasn't a huge amount of relevance to the original stage. Actually, there was a CTF map awhile back that had the same wind physics that MM6 had, as in you would be slowly raised up if you were above a fan. If this map gets redesigned, adding this wind gimmick would be a very good thing to consider.

[DoomManFTW]

MM8FRO:not issue,but more of a easter egg or something:in megaman 8 there is an unused sprite of those panels saying"jump,jump,slide,slide"which actually tells you to shoot,but I do not see this happen because it will take some work for the sprite,it is not necessary and there is no voice clip saying"shoot,shoot",but just thought it would be cool.

[Gumballtoid]

I honestly think the best thing you could do for MM5WAV is remove the wavebikes altogether.

[Thunderono]

oh boy is it that time
I'm just running through core finding the biggest offenders here-- I may touch upon some personal gripes but most of it'll be maps I've seen get griped at all around.
I'm most likely going to have some overlap with other users here

MM1OIL: This is one of those maps you see get absolutely ripped to shreds by anyone and everyone right up until it comes down to actually fixing it.  Most of the time, I hear people complain about the relative easiness to suicide with an accidental shot to the oil canisters, and I agree to a point.  I don't think that they should be removed entirely (The ones used to separate Flash Bomb from the rest of the ledge and the ones used to block the high ground in the courtyard from other high grounds are good examples of how to use them correctly), but the ones used in a fashion like this and pretty much all of the canisters pictured here are entirely unnecessary and only serve to bait suicides.  Beyond the canisters, I'd say this map is pretty good.

MM2BUB: I can't really say much about this map that hasn't been said, to be honest-- the layout is uninteresting and at times difficult to traverse.  The constant presence of low gravity makes it difficult to gauge which ledges you can jump to from where, and every point in the map is a chokepoint.  This map is definitely deserving of an entirely new layout, preferably-

MM2BUB: Wasted potential. This stage is a labyrinth of hallways which results in an uninteresting layout while the wall spikes are in bad taste. Requires a new layout, preferably with an above water section as well as an underwater section.

Bubbleman's map always felt like a weird one to me, although I understand that map was difficult to make well, due to the lack of textures. However I do feel like MM2BUBX (the remixed map that Beed28 made) could either give inspiration for improvements or replace the existing map, as it seems like a superior version to the original. MM2BUBX had more going for it such as including the overground section and waterfall from Bubbleman's original stage in MM2, along with it playing better for battle scenarios.

Took the words right out of my mouth.  This stage would benefit greatly from a section involving the above water segments from the game.

MM2QUI: Rozark already covered my issue with the beams, actually.  However, my main gripe with this map is actually the overemphasis on the identical corners-- two of them have random teleporter pits, to boot.  There's no reason for the corners to be the main points of the map flow, a flow already heavily burdened by the quick beams.  Admittedly, I'm not too certain on a good method to fix this-- all I know is that I don't like the corners taking as large roles in the matches as they do.

MM2CRA: This map needs more pathways from bottom.  If you spawn down there, you're essentially screwed since you either have to climb two incredibly tall ladders or pick a chokepoint to try and climb so you can access the superior weapons up top.  It really isn't fun to play on.

MM4DIV: This is just a mess.  There's way too much elevation inconsistency, the low gravity screws with a lot of the fights, and the title weapon of the stage is incredibly powerful on it.  Similarly to MM2BUB, this map needs a complete rework, preferably including the above water segments of the level.  Gumballtoid's submission to the Falcon Pack is a fairly good example of how to create such a section.

MM4RIN: Please move some of the spawnpoints away from the outer pits-- it's very easy to spawn in and strafe left, falling to your doom in the process since the spawn was 32 units away from two parts of the ledge.  Pull the spawns in a little bit.  I don't actually have any gripes with the map aside from that.

MM5WAV: I both agree and disagree with Rozark on the changes necessary to this map.  I like the layouts of the rooms on each side of the map, but the middle ground (Even barring the stupid wave bike gimmick) is boring, open and difficult to actually fight on.  I feel as though Wave Man needs a partial revamp to create more of a legitimate battleground with wave bikes used to supplement mobility or create flanking routes.  In other words, the rooms on either side can stay in some form, but the area between them needs a complete rework.

MM5GYR: This map is open, poorly laid out, difficult to traverse, and quite frankly, it hurts to look at.  I'd recommend just starting fresh with this one.

MM5GRA: That gravity gimmick sure is annoying.  On low gravity, it suffers from issues similar to Bubble and Dive in which high-jumping fights can be very sloppy (Though admittedly, only two rooms exist in which this is an issue due to ceiling height) and gravity-based weapons (Napalm Bomb, Wind Storm) miss frequently or outright cancel due to hitting the ceiling.  And then high gravity happens, in which the flow is disrupted by increased numbers of jumps on stairs or an outright inability to travel to a part of the map.  Plus, gravity-based weapons are yet again messed up by the increased gravity (Napalm Bomb in particular loses a lot of its effective range and power due to it instantly hitting the ground.).  Aside from the gravity gimmick, my only gripe with the map's layout is the overemphasis of one long hallway, but that doesn't even pose too much of an issue half of the time.  How to fix the gravity gimmick?  Well, as much as I hate to say this (Considering I just said how the layout was fine), I think this map needs a rework.  In the new map, it could be normal gravity with certain sections of the map changing the gravity (To a fixed distortion-- for example, one room would always cause high gravity).  This way, the map can be designed with particular gravity distortions in mind, while still leaving an area for weapons to be used normally.  I don't know if this is within the limitations of what Zandronum can do, but I assume it is because water exists and that changes gravity.

MM6MRX: I don't even know what the general consensus here is, but I personally take issue with certain aspects of this map.  I'll handle them by case.
This screenshot is in reference to the lower area and its gyro pad-- there's really no reason for it to exist and people pretty much only go down there to hide next to the gyro pad.  I feel like it should just be scrapped.
This screenshot is in reference to the inner rooftop and its connections by proxy.  It usually turns into a campfest on that rooftop, and the flow to it is incredibly clunky (Bounce pads and a ladder on one side, or a ladder on the other.  Either way, you're at the mercy of an opponent while getting to it.).  I recommend either scrapping or reworking the area.
My last screenshot refers to exactly what is pictured.  This area is a dead end for no reason other than to provide a landing point for a gyro pad positioned on a nearby rooftop, something that could easily be worked into the actual room this dead end is connected to.

MM7FRE: Something is clearly wrong with this map.  The problem is, I'm having difficulty actually pinning down what exactly I dislike about it.  It's either the skating rink covering the whole map or the fact that said rink has perpetual high ground that can mow people in it down at low effort due to the lack of real cover.  I won't delve much further, as I'm afraid I can't offer up much of value as to how to fix this map.

MM7BUR: There is a LOT going on here.  There's high ground, low ground, middle ground, five hundred flanking routes, count bomb routes, bounce pad routes, some random room in the back that contributes literally nothing to the map that nobody goes to, and two different types of non-death water.  In my humble opinion, this map needs a rework to where it's just simpler-- you can't tell if the emphasis on this map's geometry was supposed to be vertical or horizontal.
In a slightly more minor note, if you're caught in this, you're essentially fucked until either somebody discovers and murders you or you survive the ten seconds of shame.  Why is this here?

MM7TUR: The turbo roaders suck, the ceiling is really low everywhere and there's dinner tables all over the place.  That's all I can say about it.

MM8SEA: This map is very clunky in design and the bushes, while admittedly adding a nice element of ambush to the map, create an obnoxious lack of visibility that hinders the fight more than it makes it unique.  That's really it.  The outdoor section of the map could use a total rework that involves less bushes and is more fun to actually seek out a fight in, because as it stands, the only fun fights occur here, here and here.

MMBMUS: While I don't have anything of value to say about this map, I feel that it isn't a good map and it just isn't fun to play on.  Consider this a "+1" to any other discussions regarding necessary changes to the map.

MMBMAG: This map is pretty damn large.  I normally don't take issue with large maps as long as the size is supplemented with geometry that complements it, but this map does not have that.  What does it have instead?  It has a large, open, deathbox courtyard surrounded on three sides by castles that contribute absolutely nothing to the map and on one side by what you might see in an actual map.  This map is large and pointless in design.  It needs a complete rework.


...I guess that actually just about covers my largest issues with some of the maps.  I hope this was informative/useful!

[Tengu]

M7TUR: The turbo roaders suck

SO.

MUCH.

THIS.

[Superjustinbros]

I really think MM1BUB and MM4DIV would greatly benefit with above-water sections of sorts.