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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Bugs/Suggestions => MM8BDM Discussion => Pending => Topic started by: Max on November 07, 2020, 04:38:44 PM

Title: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: Max on November 07, 2020, 04:38:44 PM
Hi Iíve been trying and failing thanks to ccbm/hale to get more people into Vanilla after the weapon and time-to-kill updates so letís talk about CTF
Originally I was just going to put in a post saying something like ďhey thereís only 2 maps with MM9 weapons and 1 map with a v6 weapon what the fuck you guys are mad lazy  :ugeek:Ē but I think turning it into a discussion on which new weapons to bring forward, rather than just adding them for the sake of it, would be more healthy for the game modeís balance.

Remember that swapping out any sort of weapon or adjusting balance for these maps has what Iíd define as a three-pronged effect on the gameplay:
-   Changes how easy it is to catch someone running with a flag (buffs to this are generally good if not obnoxiously overtuned eg homing weapons)
-   Changes how easy it is to run with the flag and get past people trying to get in your way (also a good thing, I would think)
-   Changes how easy it is to defend your flag, or defend someone holding the other teamís flag (buffs to this are generally bad? Or at least when I played stalling was an issue).

The main issue is that, likely only because of the timeframe in which they were made, dang near all of these maps rely HEAVILY on v1 weapons and v1 weapons alone. Whilst they have been updated with MM7, 8 and in some cases &B weapons they are far less prevalent, and donít go far beyond adding Water Balloon to every map where itíll fit. This tilts the balance more in favour of the last point on the list, solely because so many v1 weapons are extremely slow travelling. For example, if you look at the totals for long range weapons, the most prolific options are Gemini Laser (9/25 maps) at an incredible 22 speed, Thunder Beam (8/25 maps) at 30 speed and Gyro Attack (8/25 maps) which is 35 speed and also is prone to splitting in two. By contrast, Laser Trident only shows up on a single map and quite possibly the smallest one on offer, MMCTF25.
I donít think itís an unpopular opinion to say that slower weapons favour defensive play by design, itís much easier to hold a corridor with a bunch of lingering rippers or bouncing lasers than a weapon that requires precise aim and face to face confrontation. Likewise itís much harder to catch someone on the run when your lightning bolts barely travel any faster than your player character does, and obviously donít adjust their trajectory beyond the point at which you first fired them.

Hereís the totals for each type of weapon, there might be some inaccuracies if I just straight up didnít spot a weapon but I tried my best lol

LONG RANGE WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

RAPID FIRE WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

CLOSE RANGE WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

POWER WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

AREA WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

SHIELD WEAPONS
(click to show/hide)

ITEMS
(click to show/hide)

Anyway please let me know what newer weapons you think would be good to bring into CTF. Maybe drop into a CTF or FOOTBAWL server sometime
Title: Re: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: CutmanMike on November 07, 2020, 07:07:43 PM
Moved to pending as this is something that needs doing. It was on the table for v6a at one point but other things were more important.
Title: Re: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: Trillster on November 07, 2020, 09:11:55 PM
I think it's worth mentioning, assuming that this wasn't missed for removal, Danger Wrap actually has exclusive CTF changes to make it not drop mines in that mode.
Code: [Select]
Spawn:
DWRA I 0
DWRA I 0 A_JumpIf(ACS_ExecuteWithResult(975, 0)==4,"Death")
DWRA I 0 A_SetArg(0, 200)
DWRA I 5 bright
DWRA G 0 A_ChangeFlag("NOCLIP",0)
Goto Mine
So in that same vein, I don't see it out of line to tweak weapons like Charge Kick or Break Dash for CTF so that they can be placed on CTF maps and used in those modes. Otherwise, this probably ought to be removed, because this is the only weapon out of all of them to do it as far as I'm aware.
Title: Re: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: LlamaHombre on November 07, 2020, 09:49:44 PM
I'm in support of weapon tweaks for CTF, personally. I feel there's plenty of untapped potential there, especially since plenty of weapons are pretty terrifying to think about on CTF maps.
Title: Re: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: Max on November 07, 2020, 10:40:26 PM
On the subject of weapon tweaks I wouldn't want any to be made where you have to learn a new attack or any that change the base function of the weapon
The reason I brought up possibly tweaking Charge Kick and Tengu Blade is because it'd be pretty easy to just cut the dash on the former and default to the altfire on the latter when you have the flag, so you can still use them as melee weapons which CTF is lacking in, but also adds some mobility and offence when you don't have the flag

there's more you could change to widen the available pool like the amount of Chill Spikes or Flame Blasts that can exist on the ground at once but then it becomes some weapons are altered in CTF all the time and some weapons in CTF are altered only when you have the flag and some aren't altered at all so that could get pretty confusing pretty fast. I'm in favour of keeping Danger Wrap edited because the angle it fires at and the bomb rain is really useful compared to a straight shooting explosive despite only existing on mmctf01 at the moment lol
Title: Re: [Discussion] CTF weapon layouts are really outdated
Post by: fortegigasgospel on November 07, 2020, 11:14:35 PM
I think Wheel Cutter could go into CTF23 Water Works to replace Metal Blade possibly and find something else to replace Item 1, such as an item or removing it entirely to put Needle Cannon in that spot, since Wheel Cutter serves the same purpose Item 1 had, but at the same time Item 1 is ment to force taking the middle path from the center to be slower then the main paths. Maybe Gemini Laser can be replaced by something else too but I'm not too sure what, though I am fine with it being so. Wave Burner, Crystal Eye, and Knight Crusher are the ones I feel are the out standers in the map.
So imo its a tough call on that map, but if others feel there are some good grounds for replacements I'm willing to let changes happen.