Stardust's Workshop

[Korby]

Like what Korby said, more ranged whales please.

Actually, I never asked for more ranged hales; I just said they don't all need to be instakill melee.

[BookofDobson]

Like what Korby said, more ranged whales please.

Actually, I never asked for more ranged hales; I just said they don't all need to be instakill melee.

Whales.... WHALES...

Mobile auto correct sucks

[Dr. Freeman]

So, I've been going through R++ the last few days playing with friends, and while I don't know how much this mod is getting worked on at the moment, I'm going to leave a butt ton of notes that I feel like could help improve things. Because while it's a million times better than previous versions of Saxton (Except Lego's his was good ;_;) there are still some odd choices that could be tweaked to make the mod better. So let's start this crazy train.

(click to show/hide)

Going to start by listing through each hale.

Saxton-
It's interesting how the big guy himself is one I have a lot of problems with. Not because he's bad on his own, but just because of how goddamn boring he is. Yes, I know he's straight from TF2, but this game isn't TF2, and Hale does nothing interesting. He's the melee guy (as is about 50% of the hales) and his rage gives him a slight stat boost. He has a ton of health so matches with him drag on and it's just not exciting. Yes, he's in TF2, but you have a chance to deviate from the source material and do something more with it. Personally, I just downright think you should replace him with Dr. Wily or some Mega Man guy to help fit the 8BDM theme better, instead of just copy/pasting TF2. Of course, not sure how many people would agree, but at the least I'd say do something to make him more interesting. Even a better rage will suffice. Just something cause right now I just want to nap when he pops up.

Ghost of Starman-
You know, not a whole lot to say about him. He's different, he takes effort to use, but he's not impossible and does decent damage. Plus, while his rage is strong, it only covers a small area and someone who knows what's up can get out of the way to avoid it.

Brutal Sniper-
See, this is the problem with TF2 things. This guy is a slightly better Saxton Hale. His rage is more useful and that's it. This is also why I'm gunning to get rid of Hale himself because this guy is the same but better. Woo.

Morshu-
Ignoring the fact that Morshu stopped being appealing after 2008, this is a case of WAY too much information being thrown at whoever is the hale and no way to decipher it. I still haven't figured out how he works. Sometimes he throws bombs, sometimes he throws oil. I'm hearing things like a quick tap to do it, but at least in my experience, that's finicky. I guess he just needs more of a way for me to tell exactly what he's doing. Something as simple as giving him different weapons for the attacks would be a lot easier to figure out than just the barrage of information that is the right side of the screen.

Slenderman-
Slendy is a silly hale, but I can't think of much that can be changed without overhauling it completely.
Maybe I just miss the fact that I edited his song to play Justice Man's theme and he became 100 times more enjoyable.

Gilgamesh-
My God, this man needs a buff to his attacks. The RNG is already in effect all the freaking time, but it's at the point that when you do get a good sword, it's still pretty damn useless for not doing enough damage. Rocket Punch is crazy good, but if you know what you're doing, you can dodge it just fine. It's more of a case of simply making his better swords deal more damage.

Remelia Scarlet-
Two main things. First, the hud is really freaking weird and she moves her hand back to attack, which makes it pretty hard to tell where you're actually hitting. Second, tone that rage down. It's Touhou, yes. But most rages are set so they will kill you, but if you know what you're doing or the hale is inexperienced, you can dodge it. No matter what, you WILL get hit by Scarlet's rage. Just tone down the projectiles a little and even then it's a million times better.
But seriously the hud is kinda gross.

Unknown Robot Master-
This is the most petty critique on this whole thing. But he has the most boring song in the entire world.
Yeah, that's what I got. Maybe tone down the health a tad on some of the minions, but besides that he's decent.

Dio Flash-
Actually, I like Dio Flash. He's really good, but if the players are competent, he won't always win. He's probably the strongest hale in the pack, but he's also of my favorites, both to fight against and to play as (rarely).

Mudkip-
I feel like something is off about Mudkip. Probably because I think changing the Pokemon rep to a legendary or something with more value than another 2006 meme is nice. He just kinda feels like the odd man out and doesn't fit in at all. I have no idea what you'd change about him (besides replacing him with another Pokemon super winky face 9000) so maybe someone will have more of an idea if they read this long thing. I'm not sure.

Genesis Unit-
Worst Hale. I'm downright saying it. No one likes it when they pop up. Hyper Storm H is a fat loser who can barely do anything besides be a tank. Mega Water is support yes, but he can barely fight anyone off and is completely useless unless he finds a hiding spot or something and Buster Rod is the only competent one but he's so weak due to Hyper Storm being around as well that he's also useless. The shields are a time waster for the player, the amount of ammo bars and information is way too much and too complicated for its own good. They're not fun to play as, they're not fun to fight against. While I think this pack is a lot better than previous Hales and there are a good chunk of bosses I enjoy, I can safety say that Genesis Unit is utter trash. If you're going for Mega Man, it's better off not going for a trio. It's clunky, gross, wastes time, slow, MegaWater's harpoon is utter trash, and a waste of time. They should be revamped completely or just cut altogether.

Tomahawk Taliban-
That said, this guy has kinda grown on me. The darkness is still kinda annoying, but it's million times better over past versions. I'd still maybe keep it lighter just one second longer. And maybe reduce Totem Senpai's health. Cause he's one hell of a tank right now. Besides that, I think he's a pretty neato guy.

 Macho Man-
Macho Man is neat. Though I would recommend a combo of putting some directions on screen when you first play as him, because it really makes no sense what you're supposed to do, and buff his regular attacks. When there's a barrage of players, there is no way you can stun someone and get another hit in. There's just too much going on. Only the rage can really save you in those situations. I'd just buff his regular attack, if not in damage then simply making it easier to actually hit someone.
Though his gimmick is neat so that's my only real problem with the guy.

The ones not listed I really don't have anything to say about. They're fine. (Though maybe buff one of the Ra Thor's damage by a litttllle bit)
I have no idea if this critique will even be taken into account, but I had some free time and was thinking about it lately, so here I am. Hopefully you'll listen to at least some of it, and I hope you have a nice day.

[Stardust]

I needed to take a break after v2a and finally after the final version of v2fhhhhsomething... thanks for taking the time to post these as yes, the mod is *still* being worked on, I won't post screenshots because there's nothing really "new" (we only did improvements or revamps so far), and because I don't want to spoil for the moment, but SH V3 can be expected for 2015 and will sure provide a looooot of new features, by *hopefully* fixing the problems that were pointed in v1 and v2 regarding the gamemode or the hales/bosses themselves.

I'm just going to comment the things I have doubts or don't agree with, the remarks I don't answer to, I agree with them and expect the next version to do something about it

(click to show/hide)

Saxton-
 It's interesting how the big guy himself is one I have a lot of problems with. Not because he's bad on his own, but just because of how goddamn boring he is. [...]

As you pointed it out his concept being so simple doesn't mean he's weak when it comes to balance on the opposite, he's rather good next to some other UP hales. It can sounds silly but he's... supposed to be that simple, like he says "welcome to the tutorial level"  or something, he's meant to teach you how do you play SH
Now let me reassure you he'll get something new next version, but don't expect a gun or elemental projectiles of some sort

Brutal Sniper-
See, this is the problem with TF2 things. This guy is a slightly better Saxton Hale. His rage is more useful and that's it. This is also why I'm gunning to get rid of Hale himself because this guy is the same but better. Woo.

He's going to be reworked more like a regular ranged hale, inspired from Frags's version probably

Morshu-
Ignoring the fact that Morshu stopped being appealing after 2008, this is a case of WAY too much information being thrown at whoever is the hale and no way to decipher it. I still haven't figured out how he works. Sometimes he throws bombs, sometimes he throws oil. I'm hearing things like a quick tap to do it, but at least in my experience, that's finicky. I guess he just needs more of a way for me to tell exactly what he's doing. Something as simple as giving him different weapons for the attacks would be a lot easier to figure out than just the barrage of information that is the right side of the screen.

Not possible to have several weapons with morphing stuff, and I do what I can to teach the player effectively and quickly how to use the hale when you get morphed with the help menu (altfire when you just get morphed). And even though that help menu will be reworked to be easier and quicker to read (less bullshit mode). Like Sniper he could get some variations coming from Frags's version anyway

Remelia Scarlet-
Two main things. First, the hud is really freaking weird and she moves her hand back to attack, which makes it pretty hard to tell where you're actually hitting. Second, tone that rage down. It's Touhou, yes. But most rages are set so they will kill you, but if you know what you're doing or the hale is inexperienced, you can dodge it. No matter what, you WILL get hit by Scarlet's rage.

She was the very very first hale I made so yea I went basic with it and didn't bother making something very clean. I'll modify the HUD to be more throttling like (and with new sprites if I find an artist), however for the rage, while some projectiles can't be avoided in some situations, I'd like to explain how do you actually "dodge" the rage. You don't dodge it by trying to dance between the bullets like you'd do in Touhou... if you do that you're going wrong. You simply have to run the furthest as you can from Remilia. She's stopped when triggering the rage, and is slowed down when it's active. Go, run away, hide in narrow areas where the large sphères projectiles couldn't pass, and the damage you'd take could be minimized down to almost nothing.

Dio Flash-
Actually, I like Dio Flash. He's really good, but if the players are competent, he won't always win. He's probably the strongest hale in the pack, but he's also of my favorites, both to fight against and to play as (rarely).

I think it's all in the character's badasness and the Za Warudo >~> being the 3rd hale I made, I just looked at how his stand would attack in Jojo's Bizarre adventure (Dreamcast) and did something similar to his mainfire. But yea if you'd ask me to do "more hales like him", I couldn't do it, IMO the idea for him isn't that unique

Genesis Unit-
Worst Hale. I'm downright saying it. No one likes it when they pop up. Hyper Storm H is a fat loser who can barely do anything besides be a tank. Mega Water is support yes, but he can barely fight anyone off and is completely useless unless he finds a hiding spot or something and Buster Rod is the only competent one but he's so weak due to Hyper Storm being around as well that he's also useless. The shields are a time waster for the player, the amount of ammo bars and information is way too much and too complicated for its own good. [...] They should be revamped completely or just cut altogether.

If you want to have hales with more complex concepts than the standard melee, fine. But then it's also your job, the players, to actually read the descriptions so you know better how they work. I can't do this for you, when you're morphed into the hale in-game and have not a single idea of what your hale can do, I can't do anything except proposing you to read the help menu (altfire)
Hyper Storm H : usually, when a hale is a duo, the health each hale has is the half of what a single hale's health would be. This is a trio. And allow me to say that Hyper Storm H alone's health is approximately situated between Saxton Hale and Gilgamesh's health, who have some of the best health in the whole game... without forgetting this is a TRIO so mathematically HSH's actual health should be cut by 3. It's not. Second, Hyper Storm H shines better with his allies (so do his allies with HSH), and his super jump crushing can kill in one hit by surprise one or several people. When the survivors are attacking BRG or MWS it's easy for him to just bring his body and deal contact damage everywhere without much stress (+ the attraction thing that bring players closer to him).
MWS : the only one I could agree with because I admit I nerfed a bit too much his offense, which I plan to buff for v3, and so do I plan to buff his support and his resistance, so he lasts longer to help.

Macho Man-
Macho Man is neat. Though I would recommend a combo of putting some directions on screen when you first play as him, because it really makes no sense what you're supposed to do, and buff his regular attacks. When there's a barrage of players, there is no way you can stun someone and get another hit in. There's just too much going on. Only the rage can really save you in those situations. I'd just buff his regular attack, if not in damage then simply making it easier to actually hit someone.
Though his gimmick is neat so that's my only real problem with the guy.

Nah really all what you need to know is that Main + Forward = stunning, and Main - Forward does the uppercut... if this is too complex we can't progress with better things. Again I'd like to point out you're supposed to read the thread to know at least the basis about the hales. That asides his mainfire is going to be upgraded especially regarding hitbox and stuff for v3.

[Emmanuelf06]

Yaaaay, good job people! Need to play again this mode! 3:

 "will sure provide a looooot of new features" => cool!

[Ceridran]

the Za Warudo

You've just said "The The World".

I have a request. Change the obituaries, etc, that say "Za Warudo" to "The World", will you? Internal code modification isn't necessary and too much of a hassle.
It's a Japanese pronunciation for two English words. The stand is named after a Tarot Card. You may as well change everything else in the WAD to romanized japanese.
The obituaries for Dio aren't even accurate:

"%o's power was useless against c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s Blazing Fists!"
should be
"%o's power was useless against c[d6]The World c-(%k)'s Blazing Fists!"

"%o was temporally executed by c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s Za Warudo!"
should be
"%o was temporally executed by c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s Circle of Knives!"

Probably just nitpicking, but it's been bugging me for a while.

[BookofDobson]

Sigh... no one ever listens to me because they assume i hate saxton and say that all hales suck

MWS and HSH do suck ofc and this is why:
MWS seems to be made to die thats about it. you tell us he is a support but the only support he does is his rage. His harpoons have rather poor firing rate and semi weak power not mention small hitbox. who wants to run around like a dummy with armor when his weps dont do shit?  His water is so hilariously bad. it just pushes people to the side not back. it should at leasg send people spinning messing up their aim. hes not as bad as HSH so i would say just increase his firing speed.
HSH on the other hand is just.. why. As you can see a tank is good at killing people... HSH isn't... at all. either his main has a absurdly small hitbox or it flat out doesn't work exactly 1/3 of the time. his ammo depletes way to fast an regens way too slow. however even if you didn't use  all the meter you can't shoot unless its full. Thats just bull. This is where the item comes in but what if i don't have it? its SLOWER than the main refill and i can't run im way too slow, so i get swarmed by the crowd and dead because power weapons. there is nothing fun about being a practice dummy waiting for your team to bail you out, when most of the time they are dead.

[Stardust]

"%o was temporally executed by c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s Circle of Knives!"

That is Sakuya's move not Dio's
In fact it's fun you mention romanized japanese in the obits because Gouki was planned to have entirely roumanized written obits but I couldn't find a translater ;(
Another thing, similar to how there are English words used in other languages like parking, barman, bluff, club, w/e, you wouldn't write all your sentence in japanese if you'd say like "let's go outside eat some sushis" even though the name "sushi" is romanized
If you really want The World to appear on the obits though, I could call Dio's rage attack "Za Warudo", but I could say the blazing fists attack of his stand would display "%o's power was useless against c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s The World's Blazing Fists!", because his stand's name is the same name as his famous attack (correct me if I'm wrong?)

I laughed at the above post when I read "As you can see a tank is good at killing people... HSH isn't... at all". A tank's role isn't to deal damage  at all xD the tank is meant to polarize the attention on him/her and redirect attacks that could hit the other fragile members, that's why the sucking exists, if this isn't tanking :^) to use his main, aim to the feets of the target instead of on the head, it should work better.
I'm saying that again because as you can see you're not reading my posts neither but his health is Gilgamesh tier, so alone he has like the health of 7 or 8 buster rod gs (that's a new unit), and if you didn't know the main goal of this hale is to work as a team instead of being separated.
I'd say MWS < HSH but opinionz

Either way on a more global scale, most hales are UP and Genesis Unit are planned to be buffed, I already said it

[Korby]

but...all of akuma's attacks are already romanized.
hadoken, shoryuken, Messatsu Gouhadou, etc.
all of that is romanized japanese

[Stardust]

Yea but like, even the rest of the obits, and the rest of every text in the battle, even the rage message (??? nani sore kakuna shusi raeg lfmnqlfsbm)
the round was meant to be like 100% japanese

[MrL1193]

Well, it's been a while since I last commented in this thread and the latest version of the mod has been around a while now, so I guess I'll take a moment to list some of my own thoughts. Some of this might be stuff I've already mentioned before; it's been a while, so please forgive me.

Runes:

(click to show/hide)

In most situations, Spread is the best rune by far, and it can completely turn the tables on the boss if it's paired with the right weapons. It's especially devastating against melee bosses, who have to run up close where they have no hope of dodging the triple shots and can get shotgunned for triple the damage. Personally, I would say that if secret bosses are still going to be present in this mod and are going to be buffed so that they're more challenging than normal bosses, the Spread Rune should be reserved for those bosses alone.

Rage is a very hit-or-miss rune for the offensive classes (that is, everyone other than Auto and Roll). Sure, you have the chance to layer on damage twice as fast, but you'll also burn through your ammo twice as fast in the process. It also doesn't help that bosses no longer flinch at every attack, which strips the rune of one of its main strengths. Compared to the Strength Rune, which is equivalent to flat-out cutting the boss's remaining HP in half, Rage just doesn't feel as practical.

Speaking of Strength, I believe I once mentioned the idea that it could also confer the benefit of forcing the boss to flinch at attacks, much like they used to. I still do want to see the Strength Rune become something more than just a way of cutting the boss's remaining HP in half, because as practical as that is, it's also rather boring. There's also the occasional problem of getting the Strength Rune when you're at low HP and dying almost immediately. Granted, this can also happen with Rage and Spread, but it's more noticeable with Strength because it doesn't do anything to help you survive or hit the boss more often. Causing it to add a slight hit stun property to your attacks could help make it feel more interesting, I think.

Resistance is reasonably well-balanced for the most part, but there are some bosses against whom it really doesn't help that much (coughgutsmangcough). At the very least, I'd suggest making it so all the classes have the property of getting knocked back and gaining invincibility when hit with an attack that deals at least 100 damage before Resistance, S. Armor, or any other sort of defense is factored in (which is a bit different from what Duo has now, since his invincibility can fail to trigger if he has a defensive bonus).

Drain is probably the least well-balanced of all the runes, as its usefulness varies wildly depending on the boss. Against bosses like Guts Man G, it's either completely useless or very nearly so (Duo might still have a veeeeery small chance of getting some use out of it), while against bosses like Super Macho Man, it can give you near-immortality. If you're going to continue to have this rune as a possible item for the last survivor to get, you really should at least restrict the list of bosses for whom you can receive it.

Bosses:

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I don't mind that Saxton Hale is a simple boss overall. It's fine to have one such boss, and it's fairly true to Saxton's TF2 roots. However, one thing that I do think could stand to change is his rage. Taking less damage for a while is extremely boring, even more so than his original TF2 rage (taunting the players so they would be forced to run toward him). Even the rage he used to have in this very mod, total invincibility, at least opened up some attacking possibilities by temporarily allowing him to ignore stage hazards and perhaps pick off some people who were camped out in a tough-to-reach area. I really think he should get something more interesting than mere armor.

I assume from your comments that Christian Brutal Sniper is going to be reworked a fair bit. I just really, really hope that his hud desync problem is fixed. It often makes it hard to tell how many arrows you have left or which weapon you're currently using, and it's just generally a major nuisance.

Ninja Spy isn't a terrible boss, but it really feels like there's wasted potential with his lives system. I also don't like how easy it is to deal quite a lot of damage with the initial blinding flash of his rage, which can allow him to get cheap kills or soften up opponents enough that he can kill them with one less slash. Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying that he shouldn't have that capability at all; I just think you should have to work harder to get close to your opponents if you want to deal that much damage with the flash.

This is just a minor complaint, but I don't think that Scrooge McDuck needed to get a second theme (and one that's less popular and rather unsuited for a fight). Just leaving the moon theme in should be enough.

On the subject of Morshu, his candle flames sometimes seem to have trouble lighting his oil. It seems like you have to aim down more than you'd expect, and even then, it can be rather picky. As far as his rage goes, I don't know whether or not you intend to remove the "wall bomb" technique, but if you do, I really think you should also shorten the timer on his giant bomb. I believe it currently takes 75 tics to explode; I would recommend setting it to 50 instead. I had people respond positively to that timing back when I was messing around with Saxton modding myself. (Plus it just so happens to have nice timing with his voice line: "It's yours, my friend!" *BOOM*)

Regarding Remilia Scarlet, I'd just like to add that I find it very annoying that the bullets her rage spawns tend to speed up as they bounce off walls. Quite often, the bullets will get trapped in a spot where they are forced to bounce back and forth a bunch of times and end up speeding up to an obnoxious degree, allowing them to smack right into you out of nowhere. If the bullets must retain the property of speeding up as they bounce, I'd prefer that there at least be a limit to the number of times they can bounce.

The Unknown Robot Master is not a bad boss for the most part, but all of his minions take an obnoxiously long time to kill (unless you have Ice Wall to drop on them) and can easily hit you back whenever you poke your head out to take a shot at them. I also feel like he gets his rages a little too quickly; quite often, I'll come out of hiding after his rage and start attacking, only to have him rage again seconds later and destroy me.

I have some minor complaints and some major ones about Mudkip and friends. On the minor side, I really would prefer not to have the silly mooing sound effect reminding us of the memetic origins of the boss (something I've never liked) and I'm starting to get sick of hearing "Devilkip" jokes every time it shows up when there are a certain number of players in the server. (I'd also like to see a proper Torchic skin someday, if it's at all possible.) On the major side, Treecko is still incredibly obnoxious, both for its healing capability and for its slash-your-face-off capability. It's more of a threat than Mudkip, really, and that's just dumb.

The secret boss pool still needs a lot of work to actually feel rewarding. I personally don't think Roll has any business being there in the first place, but even if you like her as a character, she's one of the most boring bosses out there. Neo DS isn't terribly interesting either once you realize that he takes about 10 times normal damage from everything (though I assume he'll get buffed to be less pathetically weak if he's still around next update). As for Gamma's Feet, I don't particularly care for their concept, but their gameplay is at least somewhat unique. Unfortunately, they also have such high HP that it takes an absolute eternity to kill them. I understand that secret bosses are supposed to be stronger, but if you still want them to be beatable (unlike Akuma), it would be nice if it didn't take 15 minutes to finish them off. Personally, I still think that Dio Flash would make a good secret boss, but I guess that's not happening now. We still could use some better secret bosses, though.

Other miscellaneous stuff:

(click to show/hide)

Please fix the map repeating exploit. It's really quite a simple thing.

I'm starting to think that having Dive Missile in the normal weapons pool may not be such a great idea. Yes, the homing can get messed up when there are other survivors nearby, but it's still a very easy way to score hits from a distance. That damage can really add up, and you get tons of ammo for the weapon too.

I don't know if you've noticed, but hardly anyone uses Duo. I used to main him, but I've since switched to Proto Man. One of the main reasons I did so was that Duo's main weapon, the Duo Fist, is not all that good. It's simply not practical at long range, unlike all the other Busters. Even the Bass Buster, which is very weak, can at least be used to pressure, poke, and prod the boss. With the Duo Fist, you're not likely to score any hits at long range, and it's still quite a slow weapon at close range. Yes you can use 70 damage charge shots, but they travel slowly and charge up even more slowly. Other classes can continue fighting once they run out of ammo, but Duo is in trouble if he ever runs out. (This led to one occasion on which a certain opponent, playing as Captain Falcon, deliberately stalled and stalled and stalled until I ran out of ammo and then came to pick me off when all I could do was punch. It was not fun.) Oh, and his invincibility after strong hits can sometimes fail to kick in too, which doesn't help him either.

[SmashTheEchidna]

I still think Dio would've been a perfect secret boss.

[Trillster]

I've been sort of "bleh" on the idea of secret bosses. I feel like if you have a fun boss, it shouldn't be hidden. Especially considering the fact that perfects are already difficult enough to get. I could imagine Akuma/Gouki being a secret boss because well, OP. However the rest should just be nerfed somewhat and be added as normal bosses (but at a rarer chance maybe).

[BookofDobson]

"%o was temporally executed by c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s Circle of Knives!"

That is Sakuya's move not Dio's
In fact it's fun you mention romanized japanese in the obits because Gouki was planned to have entirely roumanized written obits but I couldn't find a translater ;(
Another thing, similar to how there are English words used in other languages like parking, barman, bluff, club, w/e, you wouldn't write all your sentence in japanese if you'd say like "let's go outside eat some sushis" even though the name "sushi" is romanized
If you really want The World to appear on the obits though, I could call Dio's rage attack "Za Warudo", but I could say the blazing fists attack of his stand would display "%o's power was useless against c[d6]Dio Flash c-(%k)'s The World's Blazing Fists!", because his stand's name is the same name as his famous attack (correct me if I'm wrong?)

I laughed at the above post when I read "As you can see a tank is good at killing people... HSH isn't... at all". A tank's role isn't to deal damage  at all xD the tank is meant to polarize the attention on him/her and redirect attacks that could hit the other fragile members, that's why the sucking exists, if this isn't tanking :^) to use his main, aim to the feets of the target instead of on the head, it should work better.
I'm saying that again because as you can see you're not reading my posts neither but his health is Gilgamesh tier, so alone he has like the health of 7 or 8 buster rod gs (that's a new unit), and if you didn't know the main goal of this hale is to work as a team instead of being separated.
I'd say MWS < HSH but opinionz

Either way on a more global scale, most hales are UP and Genesis Unit are planned to be buffed, I already said it

I should have coined the term about the tank differently but still i can aim everywhere on the player the main still works 1/3 of the time.  yes i am reading your posts (rude...) Really who cares how much HP he has? if his means of defending himself are shit he his going to get hitstuned and die.
please stop impling im not doing something before i talk.

[Rozark]

A tank's role isn't to deal damage  at all xD the tank is meant to polarize the attention on him/her and redirect attacks that could hit the other fragile members, that's why the sucking exists, if this isn't tanking :^)

if his means of defending himself are shit he his going to get hitstuned and die.

As much as I dislike the bikdark face (even if someone else is using it), if a tank were to deal significant amounts of damage, they would need to become less fragile and scale weirdly- a fighter of sorts. A tank at the core is what Stardust said and is what Duo is. In a perfect new-ish structure, the tank would be the only one dead. However, the enemy team would be completely wiped out because of the tank focus. The damage dealers/healers (The ones you actually need to protect) would live; and it is the tank's goal to absorb the damage for them so the fragiles live. If the tank dealt significant damage, well, most other classes would be out of a job as the tank does their jobs better.

So yes, if a tank dies, they're doing their job right.