MM8BDM v5 - What maps do you feel need work? Pt. II

[Destroy Drill]

Well......Here are the maps that need to be redone in my own opinion:

MM1ICE: I was going to say the exact same thing as Rubyyoshi so I really can't say more
MM2BUB: Do I really need to say why ? (It's basically a water labyrinth with spikes and pits. And I agree with what Rozark and Emmanuelf06 said.)
MM2CRA: Well....most people already explained why but I have something in mind........Why don't you make it a tower with ladders and stairs just like the original level of Crashman.......And the telly spawning pipes would be a nice addition to it.
MM2WOO: It is........just a forest and a tiny cave.......perhaps the cave could be expanded. And the forest needs to made from scratch.......maybe make it a bigger forest with tree tops and ledges that you can walk on just like in the game.
MM2FLA:.............Make It Bigger. And Add The Mazes Just Like In The Game.
MM3NEE: This map really "Needles" a new design. It really doesn't have any excitement in it. The only good thing about this map is the middle part with the shortcuts to the different parts of the map. It's a good gimmick so maybe keep it.
MM4DRI: M.A.K.E. I.T. B.I.G.G.E.R.
MM4DIV: Everything Everyone said before me.
MM5WAV, MM5GYR, MM6MRX, MM7FRE, MM7BUR, MM7TUR (Bear With Me), MM8SEA, MMBMUS, MMBMAG: I absolutely agree with everything Thunderono said. Consider This A +1.
MMBAST: The pillars section is very very very hard to fight in so consider redesigning it. Overall, The Map Is L.A.M.E.

I Think I Said It All. Thx In Advance

[BiscuitSlash]

MM4DRI: M.A.K.E. I.T. B.I.G.G.E.R.

This.

I'll be honest Drillman's map has always felt kinda underwhelming to me, mostly because of the size of the map. For some reason it seems like the sort of area that should have more areas to explore.

If not, at least make the map more lively by doing something like adding those Helipons and the Taketentos for the background in that open area on the edge of the map. In fact, a lot of maps need to have this sort of treatment in order to make them more lively and engaging. Sparkman's map has a similar issue with Drillman's map in that it feels lackluster and uninteresting, and one way of countering this issue would be to make stage enemies either spectate or mind their own business, as opposed to being absent.

[Bikdark]

Daily reminder that compact maps != boring maps. There's nothing wrong with Spark or Drill. Don't add unnecessary enemies to the background to distract players (It's a huge problem on MM2BUB btw)

[Orange juice :l]

I would like to nominate MM6FLA to be established as a national preserve

[Emmanuelf06]

MM4DRI is pretty good yet, we dont need really huge maps to have fun, some maps  can be bigger but we need  some maps who will be always small like mm1cut, mm6fla, mm3spa, mm3har ect...
Always the same "type" of maps could be boring.
Some maps force you to use often the same strategy (long shoot in mm7fre (magnetman or others), or (often) spam geminilaser in the old mm1cut.

MM5DAR or MM6KNI are big maps but some parts make it like it's possible to use some differents strategy (like the rooms of the maps).
Maybe some relief/tower in mm5gyro could be good?

[Russel]

I wanted to put my things down on the table. Most of my thoughts are either whining about something stupid, or suggesting something simple.

I'm not gonna mention MM4DIV, MM5WAV, or MM7TUR since those seem to be under mutual agreement of "hey these are bad please change them thanks."

Anyway...

(click to show/hide)

MM1ELE - In my eyes the map's only real issue is its use of height. Even then, it doesn't particularly do a bad job at it...I just don't like it. Personal opinions, I guess.

MM1ICE - Junk Shield is an issue here are there are no counters to the weapon available for use. I would advise adding one and I'm gonna put in a shameless plug of this thread and move one. [I posted a thread about new junk shield counters in bugs and suggestions, and there was discussion but the thread seems to have vanished.]

MM1TIM - As Llama expressed, additional clarity on the conveyer belts would be helpful.

MM1OIL - Once again oil canisters are fraggin' stupid. Please tone down the damage. They place a rather painful-feeling gimmick on an otherwise fine map.

MM1DW1 - Given the power difference between Super Arm and Hard Knuckle, I would recommend swapping their positions. Otherwise I wanna say this map is fine.

MM2BUB - Its labyrinth-like layout separates it from pretty much every other map in the game, not even MM8AST compares, honestly. I feel such a structure works or the map, but shouldn't be the only thing to it...and the spikes don't exactly add anything positive to the experience.

MM2AIR - Honestly the complaints I have here could be summarized by begging Dive Missile and Centaur Flash changes. Saving that for if/when there's a thread for that...which there might already be since I'm not the most attentive to the forums.

MM2QUI - Am I one of the only ones who feels this map warrants a redo in some way? I mean I find it's boring as sin and the force beams don't really contribute much aside from forced flow changes in a map that has relatively poor flow to begin with.
[On an unrelated note, I have a suggestion for the quick beams. Instead of having the damaging components visible and server-synced, make the entire visual portion clientside and fire off invisible damagers at fixed intervals. This would be effectively the same from a gameplay standpoint but online the beam has a tendency to "fragment" where the damager is spawned. This doesn't happen offline and frankly doesn't look very good.]

MM2CRA - Please add some way to get to the top from the bottom. One of the biggest issues with this map is the fact one person can lock down the lower section and is then guaranteed a number of kills simply by virtue of being on higher ground. This is less of an issue in MM3SPA [which I have a minor suggestion for] because the pit is not part of the map's base flow.

MM2DW3 - I'm rather fond of this map just by virtue of its compact size. My only real issue is the inconsistent flow that could be rectified either by simple modification or by addition of more item 1...or both.

MM3SPA - There isn't anything inherently wrong layout-wise. I just wanted to bring up that there are spawns in the lower pit section and I personally feel they should be moved elsewhere. Unlike MM2CRA, this map provides risk-reward to the lower section of the map that isn't required to pass through to traverse the map in its entirety.
But yeah-- those spawns in the underside kind of hurt that in my opinion. Ridiculous nitpick if I ever knew one.

MM4PHA - The outdoor section especially doesn't seem to provide much in terms of depth...it's mostly just "hope you can get out of the sand" and honestly...I'm just not fond of the map overall...I would want at least a partial rework to the map if only to give it better use of a simple-- albeit, annoying, mechanic and a more suitable layout.

MM4DRI - This map is fine. I'm only mentioning it because the latest change [removing the teleporter] made the map smaller and I'm actually more fond of it for that fact.

MM4TOA - I didn't put this into very much scrutiny up until this point but good lord why is there 150 health just laying on the ground next to flame blast what the hell did someone just barf up five health capsules like please.
Please watch how much health is put down jeez.
Alright that rant is over.

MM4RIN - I've heard complaints about spawns near [though not facing] the pit on the outer section of the map.

MM4BRI - Honestly...the darkness gimmick is completely pointless.
Like literally the only reason to do it is to screw up someone who doesn't know the map's layout. And even then it would barely work. It's just some mechanic that probably shouldn't be there.
...Just one guy's opinion.

MM5GRA - Two words. Invasive. Mechanics. Not only is this map's mechanics impactful and game changing, they take place across the entire map. Like please...just...rebuild the map and refigure the mechanic...it's just too invasive and doesn't even adhere to the original designs of the map.

MM6WIN - Just...add a teleport from one side of the map to the other. I personally think the addition of the caves improved the map drastically...take it a step further and add a bit of flow.

I just kinda sat down halfway through and couldn't continue. I might add more later iunno.
Thanks for reading tho.

[BiscuitSlash]

Regarding what I said about MM3SPA and MM4DRI.

I'm aware that small maps can be good and all, but those 2 maps in particular have always felt a bit lackluster and I'd rather a bit more be done with those maps.

MM1CUT is a good and fun map, and also a small map. MM2FLA and MM3HAR also fit this category, as those are not all that big maps but have interesting enough layouts to make them fun. I'm sure that something can be done to MM3SPA and MM4DRI to make them more fun to play as well, whether it be changes to the layout or making them more visually appealing/interesting.

Old MM3MAG was unlively and have a boring layout. It got replaced by a far superior version with a better layout and added those magflies to make the map interesting.

[Thunderono]

I feel like Drill Man is fine.  I've always enjoyed the insane chaos that comes from its tight battles, and the aesthetics and interestingness of the map, quite frankly, cannot be compared to old Magnet because it maintains interesting battles and the rooms all look nice (Maybe with the exception of the flat outside ledge).

Spark Man's always been a mixed bag for me.  I'm not sure if the layout itself needs updating, but I feel a lot of my problem with that map stems from the fact that the same texture is used in 80% of the upper area and said texture contains very bright colors.  It hurts my eyes.

[Magnet Dood]

Daily reminder that compact maps != boring maps. There's nothing wrong with Spark or Drill. Don't add unnecessary enemies to the background to distract players (It's a huge problem on MM2BUB btw)

Every map has its flaws, and Spark and Drill are no exceptions. Granted they are pretty small in comparison to other maps, but I still think they suffer from bad design choices.

Drill's biggest issue spawns from the presence of two weapons that don't fit the layout: Super Arm and Power Stone. The former is unusable in portions of the map because the ceilings are too low, and it keeps hitting the top of the map, rendering it completely ineffective. Even when you can use it, such as in the outside portion, it's outclassed by Drill Bomb, Crash Bomb and Homing Sniper due to its clunky wind-up. The latter isn't conducive to the map's cramped layout, and its zoning capability is nullified. It's basically been reduced to a makeshift melee weapon (which isn't really necessary given Napalm Bomb's presence). If anything, they should be replaced by weapons that are more suited to the map's layout. Water Wave or Ice Wave would work well in the long stretches of hallway and serve as a faster-firing, long-range option down the stairs and in the rooms as opposed to Napalm Bomb's close-range attack. Danger Wrap could be used as a weapon to space opponents away from the user while using the low ceilings to overwhelm them with the dropped bombs. Either would work better than the current two on there (Super Arm especially).

Spark's issue stems from the pit, where it's always been way too easy to punish people coming up from there. The ladders are still slow as balls, and with Napalm Bomb and Spark Shock present you can beat the pulp out of anyone who comes up from there. Sure, you can jump up using Rush Coil, but that doesn't really eliminate the problem since the jump is arguably more disorienting, and it leaves you hanging in the air for a while. Pretty much the only way you can get up there safely is to hope that your opponent isn't on your side and scramble up as quickly as possible, which is made harder by the changes instituted in v3 because they can just dash through the middle.

Oh yeah also sure compact maps aren't always boring, but the fact of the matter is that Drill and Spark are boring. They're just big squares. That's boring. Honestly, Drill is just four of the same rooms with two long hallways that connect the outer portions. Sure, they punched a hole into the middle to increase flow, but that doesn't make the layout any better. Spark Man is even worse- it's just a giant square with a huge pit in the middle. Once again, they punched a hole in the middle to make it flow easier, but that doesn't add anything to the layout, it just slightly alleviates a problem that's caused with such a stagnant design. Sure, compact maps can be designed well-- MM6FLA is designed well with plenty of height variation and twists and turns, MM4DUS has plenty of compact design elements that are done neatly, MM3GEM, MM3HAR, MM3DW1, MM4SKU, I could list plenty of compact maps that are designed well. But MM4DRI and MM3SPA aren't among them, because no matter how great you can make a square, it's still just a square. That kind of layout features very basic combat system that isn't very enjoyable, and it's only made worse because the maps (the latter in particular) are so freaking small that it delves into chaos the moment you have more than six players. I know I attempted to protect the original MM1FIR (unsuccessfully, God rest its soul) and used the exact same argument that some maps should be reserved for smaller player amounts, but that's because it's design wasn't a boring-ass cube. A design like that should only be reserved for a sparse variety of maps like MM1CUT, and even then they shouldn't be so bare-bones like Spark's layout (oh hey look I'm a square but I have two things in the middle and another square that's higher!!!!1!!!!) Drill is better, but I'd still push for both to be changed.

We've already been clearing out some of the other square-maps or improving upon them much more than their previous incarnations (MM2HEA, MM4BRI, MM3TOP, MM3MAG). It's time to start tackling the other ones. I'm not opposed to having them keep compact layouts, but their current layouts are boring and uninspired, and should be changed for the overall improvement of the game.

(click to show/hide)

Now let's just see how wrong I am when the blue text inevitably comes { ?• ?? ?•}

[CutmanMike]

MM5GRA - Two words. Invasive. Mechanics. Not only is this map's mechanics impactful and game changing, they take place across the entire map. Like please...just...rebuild the map and refigure the mechanic...it's just too invasive and doesn't even adhere to the original designs of the map.

I designed the layout before thinking about the gravity gimmick unfortunately. You can kind of see that from the bizarre weight traps, they were thrown in there later and are kind of awkward.

Unrelated to the issue but I actually had a completely ridiculous plan for this level. Instead of lowering and raising the gravity I was going to teleport all players into an upside down version of the map to simulate the gravity being flipped upside down (like in Mega Man 5). It worked but having the projectiles suddenly "vanish" after the teleport and items appearing to respawn all of a sudden made me change my mind and just lower/raise the gravity instead.

[Messatsu]

Ya know, the things that bother me the most about Drill and Spark is that they don't really have anything unique about them aside from their layouts.   I think both of them would be more interesting with gimmicks from their respective stages.  I was thinking the materializing floors from Drill and the rising platforms from Spark offhand.

[Bikdark]

Ya know, the things that bother me the most about Drill and Spark is that they don't really have anything unique about them aside from their layouts.   I think both of them would be more interesting with gimmicks from their respective stages.  I was thinking the materializing floors from Drill and the rising platforms from Spark offhand.

You are literally fucking killing me. Just because you can't appreciate something doesn't mean you need to ham it up like every other MMB/MM8 map with intrusive, useless gimmicks people tend to dislike.

Like, this is why 8bdm mapping has fallen off the last few years. The focus is no longer on making maps that play well, but now on how many stupid gimmicks you can shove into the map to assert the fact that this is an FPS based on a platformer.

[BiscuitSlash]

It's because the gimmicks make the map more interesting and make it feel more like the original stage that it's trying to represent. That makes the maps more enjoyable as a result.

The key thing is to make sure that the gimmicks don't interfere with the gameplay.

[CutmanMike]

I don't recall Spark Man or Drill Man having any gimmicks to capitalize on that would make sense/fun gameplay. Awkward rising platforms with spikes? Falling junk? Falling boulders? Platforms that turn into pits after touching a button? Nah, not all maps need to have stage gimmicks. Decorations are perfectly fine though.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Instead of lowering and raising the gravity I was going to teleport all players into an upside down version of the map to simulate the gravity being flipped upside down (like in Mega Man 5).

What if Sectors moved and texture flipped instead? Would that work?