Discuss your honest thoughts on GVH Nordic Saga.

[Myroc]

Okay, I'm going to bring up one single point here, and that's that you keep claiming almost every single match ends up 4-5. Yet everyone who is arguing against you has claimed that this is not the case. You can not just rebuff everyone's complaints with what amounts to the words "No it isn't".

You keep making all these claims, that all these matches comes out so fair and balanced, without a single person supporting this supposed truth. Oh, what's that, you have logs to back them up? By all means, show us. Point out all those moments that end up like that compared to the not-so-even outcomes. Oh, what's that, you don't have access to the logs? What a load of manure. Everyone is against you, reporting that what you are claiming is utterly wrong. Stop trying to claim you have all the proof in the world, then refuse to show us them for petty reasons. You are lying, and we will continue to believe you are lying until you can supply the hard proof required to show that you aren't.

Oh, and you want to retreat to a supposedly more "neutral" place. I'd like to see your definition of neutral, because it sure as hell isn't the same that the rest of us have. We're not going to head to this IRC channel that you or people on your side are in sole control of.

[IvanDobrovski]

Well, better than people who only play it for 15 minutes then rage when they suck

[xColdxFusionx]

Another good post. Here I go;
Hey, this actually sounds halfway sane! Good job!

* The filesize is something that can be reduced and will be, in the epic update. (Mainly musics which when compressed make it 90mb in total, but it will end up being more than that unfortunately) Think of it like this. Old GvH was like, 90 mbs or what ? Take it out, its 60-70 mb that NS adds.
* 180 MB is pretty big. ...Exactly why is it standalone if it's an expansion of GvH, anyway?
* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.
* Uh, frm what I saw, GvH's balance worked, for the most part. I don't see why you're complaining.
* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.
* Problem: Ghouls are either a one-hit kill at melee range or do huge amounts of damage. Someone with a melee attack is going to get demolished pretty fast, assuming the ghouls are smart.
* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)
* It may be cliché, but it works, dammit. I'd appreciate the changes, but from what I can tell not much effort was put into balancing them effectively and the mod turned into a ghoulfest.
* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))
* >inb4 Watermelon makes stuff up and then calls people trolls for not believing it.

If I missed anything, do tell.
Sorry if any of these replies sound ridiculously snarky and cynical, I've just lost a lot of respect for you guys (mainly Watermelon) from reading your posts. All I can say is that from the sound of everyone else's opinions, this isn't the mod that you guys are making it out to be.

What graphic issues? There are none. If someone's complaining, there's obviously a problem.
In terms of wad size, when we make the new core it'll be 80 megs + 40 meg music pack, we found that all the old GVH data was not compressed properly and that was our mistake for assuming CarThief actually did his job.
I BLAME YOU GUYS FOR NOT DOING OUR JOB

This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Since when? The people you were playing with obviously suck at hitting things.
Even your own CarThief knew that sjas was OP and was going to put a limit on them.
OK, maybe Sjas was kind of obnoxious, but you have Doomguys and Hunters and other classes that can make ranged attacks that deal good damage quickly.
We fixed that problem. Next.

I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.
What exactly were the Ghouls doing when this happened? Wasn't anyone capable of landing a Creeper attack on them?

Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
Probably meant Ice Fiend. Now you're just being picky with word choice.
Also the barbarian has a ranged attack as well, he's not only melee. You don't see barbarians just rushing in there by themselves. No one does that unless they're berserking and playing a gamble. If you played the game, you'd know this is flawed logic.
He's a melee-oriented class. It's only natural that he'd try to rush in and get kills with his most powerful weapon.

Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain.
>implying KD doesn't have a brain
It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.
Doesn't sound like that to me, considering multiple people have complained about it.

If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.
===
See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.
Again, proof?

Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?
That's not "adding balance." That's "adding stuff and trying desperately to balance it only to give up halfway."

GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Very balanced indeed. The only time it sways in favor is when one team does really dumb moves like rushes in on GB traps, or if Ivan and myself + some other good Doomers go hunter and just kick everyone's behind.
...Again, proof would be nice.

Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Nowadays, you can't even tell who is going to win because it's mainly skill based now. There's no "Oh choke IS going to win".
I didn't see a problem with the balance in GvH. You obviously need to check your glasses.

The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
If these kids went into the science field, they'd be mincemeat within the first day. You should also take note of this.
Except they have legitimate points. You're too busy looking at the pretty shadows while everyone else is already up and walking around.

And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
Again if you played in game, you'd realize that 4-5 comes up almost all the time. Offline does nothing because I've removed useless bots from the game. GV is the only server that hosts GVH and I'm in there most of the time.
Hell, right now for the 5th map in a row, I hear the 4-4 theme playing.
PROOF.


I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that
The distinct lack of actual proof is overwhelming.

I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
All I ask for is a name so I can go verify in the logs how much time a person has played. That's all.
Give me the user name you played with then. Let me verify. Do this, prove me wrong.
<Translator On>
"I don't actually have access to the log, so tell me your name and I'll just make stuff up."

Seriously, if you're not going to use the logs, stop referencing them.

Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Anyone with common sense would not want to come here.
We're fast enough here.

[Dr. Freeman]

Ok, this is just getting ridiculous.
I'm going to share a little fun fact right now.
You ready?
Here we go!
People can have their own opinions!
I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!
Not everyone needs to like your mod, everyone has the right to like or dislike what they please. So if they dislike it, you guys should stop trying to prove them wrong.

[Myroc]

Well, better than people who only play it for 15 minutes then rage when they suck

People are playing for more than 15 minutes, and people are not raging simply because they suck. They are complaining quite politely because things are off-balance and not entertaining (speaking of which, that's the point of playing games in the first place. Entertainment. They are not being entertained, so clearly something is amiss). But you don't see that, don't you? No, you just see yet another "troll", who is baselessly bashing the complete and utter perfection that is your mod. You're not a gift from the heavens, and neither is your mod.

[IvanDobrovski]

What graphic issues? There are none. If someone's complaining, there's obviously a problem.
In terms of wad size, when we make the new core it'll be 80 megs + 40 meg music pack, we found that all the old GVH data was not compressed properly and that was our mistake for assuming CarThief actually did his job.
I BLAME YOU GUYS FOR NOT DOING OUR JOB

This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Since when? The people you were playing with obviously suck at hitting things.
Even your own CarThief knew that sjas was OP and was going to put a limit on them.
OK, maybe Sjas was kind of obnoxious, but you have Doomguys and Hunters and other classes that can make ranged attacks that deal good damage quickly.
We fixed that problem. Next.

I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.
What exactly were the Ghouls doing when this happened? Wasn't anyone capable of landing a Creeper attack on them?

Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
Probably meant Ice Fiend. Now you're just being picky with word choice.
Also the barbarian has a ranged attack as well, he's not only melee. You don't see barbarians just rushing in there by themselves. No one does that unless they're berserking and playing a gamble. If you played the game, you'd know this is flawed logic.
He's a melee-oriented class. It's only natural that he'd try to rush in and get kills with his most powerful weapon.

Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain.
>implying KD doesn't have a brain
It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.
Doesn't sound like that to me, considering multiple people have complained about it.

If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.
===
See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.
Again, proof?

Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?
That's not "adding balance." That's "adding stuff and trying desperately to balance it only to give up halfway."

GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Very balanced indeed. The only time it sways in favor is when one team does really dumb moves like rushes in on GB traps, or if Ivan and myself + some other good Doomers go hunter and just kick everyone's behind.
...Again, proof would be nice.

Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Nowadays, you can't even tell who is going to win because it's mainly skill based now. There's no "Oh choke IS going to win".
I didn't see a problem with the balance in GvH. You obviously need to check your glasses.

The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
If these kids went into the science field, they'd be mincemeat within the first day. You should also take note of this.
Except they have legitimate points. You're too busy looking at the pretty shadows while everyone else is already up and walking around.

And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
Again if you played in game, you'd realize that 4-5 comes up almost all the time. Offline does nothing because I've removed useless bots from the game. GV is the only server that hosts GVH and I'm in there most of the time.
Hell, right now for the 5th map in a row, I hear the 4-4 theme playing.
PROOF.


I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that
The distinct lack of actual proof is overwhelming.

I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
All I ask for is a name so I can go verify in the logs how much time a person has played. That's all.
Give me the user name you played with then. Let me verify. Do this, prove me wrong.
<Translator On>
"I don't actually have access to the log, so tell me your name and I'll just make stuff up."

Seriously, if you're not going to use the logs, stop referencing them.

Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Anyone with common sense would not want to come here.
We're fast enough here.

Before I go, stop using ugly colors. I can't read.

What job are we meant to do FOR YOU Elaborate, in case you have mistaken us with your maid.

Now now, GvH's balance worked for the most part ? How are you going to prove that ? From what I've seen saying you got logs doesn't work !! (Sorry water xd)

Standalone ? It has to include things from the old GvH... how do you think you still got marine jeez.

Someone with melee weapons also has ranged weapons and has a tricky item to use. If you had played this you'd know what it is that helps him do his job VERY WELL.

Unless people actually play this and give a constructive criticism as to what we could do to make this better, it goes into the category of "I SUCKED AT THIS CLASS SO I MUST GO ON FORUMS LOOK POLITE BUT ACTUALLY RAGE" -- for me.

[TheBladeRoden]

Oh, the irony of an NSist accusing someone of riding someone else's coattails.

[CutmanMike]

Ermmm.... wow this turned from 1 page to 11 quickly!

This constant verbal back and forth of trying to prove people different is very reminiscent to to how GVH was treated when it was going full swing on the Skulltag forums. It's pathetic really. Yes Watermelon's very defensive about opinions on the mod to a point that could warrant some warnings, but at the same time the rest of the community is being very bitter about it and it's already escalated to a point where everyone seems to want to throw shit at each other. Yes I could dish out warnings and take sides but since all of you are focused on proving each other wrong, to the point of sneaking insults into each others posts, I'm just gonna go ahead and lock this.

Also while I'm here, don't forget I recently praised NS on my blog. Why, after they changed a lot of what I liked about GVH? Because it's brought back the GVH player base. People are playing it, and having fun. That's what's important here. I've had so much shit thrown at me for "ruining skulltag" for making MM8BDM and GVH, and this shitfest is exactly the same thing. "People are playing the tainted version of X! Grrr they should play Y instead because it's better!", this kind of mentality makes me want to stab someone. The fact that people are playing it constantly should be an indication that that's what people WANT to play. Maybe you think the old GVH IS better and more balanced, but people stopped playing that a long time ago.

If you wanna argue and be petty about it, take to #GVH, take it to the skulltag forums, take it anywhere, just take it off of my forum. I would hope to think we're better than that, to drag these kinds of things out. If you've got a problem about this you can PM me directly.