MM8BDM v4a Mapping Feedback

[NemZ]

The problem I have with the new mm2dw1 stage is that now it feels like the flow of the stage is pulling everyone into the central hallway of the new caves which works against the open feeling of the old map that really set it apart, while the balcony feels like even more of a waste of time then ever.  If the goal is create a little more hight variation in the map I feel this would be better served by making the following changes:

1) Make the caves only connect to the two 'corner' forts and the hole in the ceiling between them.
2) Add catwalks from the 'middle' bunkers to the lower ledges of the castle balcony (where ballade cracker is now)
3) Remove the ladders up to the magnet ledge and instead make a small interior passage connecting the two lower balconies with a sloped T leading up and out to the magnet balcony.
4) Use slight pits and ledges to guide players between the bunkers along the side with some minimal cover from the main brawling zone.
5) Add walkable steps in the corners of the central 'pit' to subtly encourage a diagonal path through the middle from the corner bunkers to the space between the balcony/middle bunkers and under the new catwalks.
6) Add a raised wall along the edges of the corner bunkers in the middle of each side so that it's easier to fire or move into the middle of the stage then at the otherwise exposed areas along the map edges.

The result is an open space with a more pronounced 'tilted loop' around the peripheral (that ties into the balcony rather than ignoring it),  with discouraged but possible secondary entrance points in the middle of each side and diagonal crossing routes tying it all together to lead people into the center space rather than into a narrow confine underneath it.  You also end up with 3 primary strategies encouraged:  midrange fighting in the center, close range encounters around the loop, or sniping from either the magnet balcony or from the tops of the two corner bunkers (all of which are vulnerable to attackers from the loop and escape means jumping right into the middle of the central fray).

[Ivory]

I was hoping Smashbro would do his trademarked 'yelling at me' by now, but I guess I need to carry on.

Anyways, take 1 on no-caves MM2DW1.

(click to show/hide)

No caves
You can still run through the bunkers.
Less weapons.
Added a middle non-accessible bunker to cover.

Maybe, maybe not?

[Hallan Parva]

I'm not reading a damn thing anyone else says until I get this out of my system
so if I bring up something that's been mentioned before, I apologize in advance

but my problem with the new MM2 Wily is that it's asymmetrical and the changes to the upper area are awkward and ugly

[7:24:42 PM] SmashMan: okay yeah now I remember why I didn't know 2 Wily
[7:24:49 PM] SmashMan: because this asymmetry is ass
[7:24:55 PM] sick sad world: lol
[7:25:06 PM] SmashMan: no I mean it's like
[7:25:13 PM] SmashMan: the entire rest of the map is more or less symmetrical
[7:25:27 PM] SmashMan: there's random pits and rocks sure but that's to add variation to an otherwise flat and dull stage
[7:25:55 PM] SmashMan: but the new underground section is so damn skewed
[7:27:11 PM] SmashMan: like okay I appreciate the lower area
[7:27:27 PM] SmashMan: and I appreciate being able to get up to the little barracks things with ladders
[7:27:38 PM] SmashMan: but oh my god why is the layout here so one-sided
[7:27:48 PM] SmashMan: and for that matter the far ladders (by the fence / Metal Blade) look like ass

For reference purposes, I will be talking about the map mainly from a top-down perspective using the image enclosed within the accompanying spoiler (props to Jack Corvus for marking the weapons and corner items):

(click to show/hide)

(larger version)

First off, I think the bunkers look... well, like ass. I like the idea of being able to climb up them without needing Item-1, but the current method looks and feels a bit sloppy. The ladders are awkwardly placed inside of the northern bunkers, the holes leading to the roof are awkwardly placed on all of the bunkers, and the see-through rooftops honestly look pretty bad.

[2:08:19 PM] SmashMan: now would be a good time to mention that I hate the ladders
[2:08:26 PM] SmashMan: like being able to climb up is a good idea and all
[2:08:32 PM] SmashMan: but they look ugly as balls
[2:08:40 PM] SmashMan: they make a hole in the middle of the roof
[2:08:55 PM] SmashMan: and the 'glass' effect with the transparent roofs looks off to me
[2:08:58 PM] Max: the transparent tops of the bunkers look pretty ugly too
[2:09:00 PM] Max: eya
[2:09:03 PM] SmashMan: zing
[2:09:18 PM] Max: it's too grey to be glass
[2:09:25 PM] Max: and it doesnt fit with the rest of the roof anyway

To add insult to injury, all the best drops are on top of the bunkers now (read: the area you climb up to), when previously these areas were flat and had nothing to offer the player. Laser and Arrow Busters? Treble Sentry? Climbing up the sides one Item-1 at a time and grabbing the neat drops on the ledges like Power Stone is a thing of the past; just scoot up the ladders, get an insanely powerful item, whip out your Item-2 (which is easier to get than Item-1 or Rush Coil) and surf through the air to one or two more insanely powerful items.

In addition, I feel that there is a bit too much emphasis on the underground area. You have six entrances to the cave system via the bunkers, there's a hole at the southern end of the map that drops you down to Ice Wall, and there is another hole dropping you to Copy Vision in the middle of a heavy combat area. Like okay, that is not okay. The underground area helps liven up the map, sure, but with that one hole you have succeeded in forcing the tunnels down players' throats and making the cave system the new focus of the map instead of the all-out brawl in the open space above.

The bunker entrances are good because the player has to choose to enter them. The hole above Ice Wall is good because it's towards the edge of the map's boundaries and can be reasonably avoided. The hole above Copy Vision is disgusting and gross because not only can you totally fall down into the hole while strafing or backpedaling in the center of the map, it's also slightly to the left and ruins the sense of symmetry the map contains. Personal bias aside (no seriously, center the fucking Copy Vision), the map flow is sucking everyone into the center of the cave system whether they like it or not. That's silly.


so instead of tell you how disgustingly bad that hole is for another fifteen minutes
I'm going to instead tell you how I'd fix the map in unnecessarily high amounts of detail

also because I want you to do it since UDMF makes me combust into flames

okay cool let's get started

Close off the middle bunker entrances (Leaf Shield / Hard Knuckle) and remove the hole above Copy Vision. This leaves four bunker entrances plus the southern hole behind Metal Blade, which is plenty of ways to enter the cave network without greatly impeding the flow of the outside area.
Speaking of Copy Vision... center the Copy Vision. Yes. Do that. Get on it.
Add ladders to the sides of the newly closed-off bunkers, either on the wide front side or on the close interior side (facing the center of the map, away from the W-Tanks). If the ladders are in front, switch the W-Tanks with the Large HP Capsules to the south. If the ladders are to the sides, the W-Tanks can remain at their current position.
Remove the ladders inside of the bunkers, and get rid of that awkward-ass rock pillar in the northern bunkers that previously had the ladder on its back. Move the Item-1 tokens (previously sandwiched between the center pillar and the ladder pillar) to the sides, possibly on a neat little shelf like the Item-2 spawns in the southern bunkers.
The weapon tokens on the bunker pieces (Leaf / Stone / Knuckle) might need to be shifted around slightly, due to the new outside ladders offering easy access to the center side tokens.
Center the Copy Vision.
You know how Bubble Lead is near the central pillar of the southern bunkers? Do the same thing with the norther bunkers, but with Dust Crusher; in other words, Dust Crusher spawns are in the middle of the northern bunkers. Existing Dust Crusher spawns are replaced by either Search Snake or Gyro Attack.
Remove the Item-1 in front of the Magnet Missile tower (behind Metal Blade).
Replace existing Item-2 spawns with Item-1.
Replace Ice Wall with Magnet Missile, replace Magnet Missile with Item-2.
Replace Rush Coil with Item-2.
Get rid of the transparent ceiling effect on the bunkers.
Switch Arrow Buster and Treble Sentry. Replace the E-Tank with another Treble Sentry... or, alternatively, replace the new Treble Sentry location (old Arrow Buster) with an E-Tank.
Center. The frickin'. COPY VISION.

These proposed changes aim to accomplish a nice middle-ground between the old MM2 Wily, which had an emphasis on open combat and featured using Item-1 to gain higher ground and new weapons, and the new MM2 Wily, which makes it easier to get to the tops of the bunkers and adds a new cave network. Closing off the northern hole and two bunker entrances helps separate the cave as its own flow pathing, and moving the ladders outside to the middle bunker pieces helps redirect flow to the central outside arena. The new ladders also re-introduce the importance of Item-1 to ascend to greater heights, but still offer players items that can be grabbed without any support items. Item-2 is harder to reach but immensely assists players due to the southern bunker roofs only being accessible now by Item-1 and Item-2, and as an added bonus Gravity Hold, Lightning Bolt, and Time Stopper now require a bit of finesse to grab due to the removal of Rush Coil.


okay time to submit--

I was hoping Smashbro would do his trademarked 'yelling at me' by now, but I guess I need to carry on.

[1:54:23 PM] SmashMan: IVY-SAAAAAAANNNNNNNN
[1:54:36 PM] SmashMan: IVORY IVORY IVORY IVORY
[1:54:59 PM] SmashMan: I WAS JUST ABOUT TO SLAM THE SUBMIT BUTTON ON A FRESHLY-BAKED POST
[1:55:07 PM] SmashMan: AND THEN YOU SHOW UP AND REMOVE THE CAVES
[1:55:08 PM] Ivory: Gosh Smash.
[1:55:26 PM] Ivory: I've been waiting. How do you think I feel? I look forward to your posts ;- ;
[1:55:31 PM] SmashMan: like okay real ta-- wait what
[1:55:39 PM] * SmashMan hides his face
[1:55:42 PM] SmashMan: g-gosh
[1:55:45 PM] SmashMan: now I feel all special

[Korby]

I can't tell if I should be supporting SmashxIvory or not.

[Blutorus]

Hm...if you think you'd like to remove the caves, perhaps add a few hollowed towers that stretch up to the sky limit, or something? Perhaps this would be a good excuse to throw in Item-3 to get to the top like in the original Mega Man 2?

[<geminibro>]

I actually liked the caves in MM2DW1.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Hm...if you think you'd like to remove the caves, perhaps add a few hollowed towers that stretch up to the sky limit, or something? Perhaps this would be a good excuse to throw in Item-3 to get to the top like in the original Mega Man 2?

I feel this is missing too. The left and right sides of the Castle's walls feels too empty.

[Jakeinator]

First things first; In the Air Man map, the little 32 width areas really need to go, they just cause people to camp and non dm matches to just drag out unnecessarily.

To the conversation at hand, the caves are a nice touch and add some variaty to the map, but it's seemingly the maps focus now because people want to use copy vision and ice wall to their advantage in the smaller space. however completely removing them shouldn't be the way to go in my eyes. Maybe have them as a means too connect two bunkers, but not have a connecting way in the middle, to keep people from crowding in there

[tsukiyomaru0]

First things first; In the Air Man map, the little 32 width areas really need to go, they just cause people to camp and non dm matches to just drag out unnecessarily.

To the conversation at hand, the caves are a nice touch and add some variaty to the map, but it's seemingly the maps focus now because people want to use copy vision and ice wall to their advantage in the smaller space. however completely removing them shouldn't be the way to go in my eyes. Maybe have them as a means too connect two bunkers, but not have a connecting way in the middle, to keep people from crowding in there

I wish we had a newer Airman map, honestly... Not that this one is bad, but perhaps we could have those red oni head things (name which I forgot) as a 3D floor with drills that may poke up slowly from the side of its head, so people standing there will need to mind when not to jump from the horn.

[*Alice]

Airman should have his ceiling raised a little. The current ceiling height is a little annoying because of how low it is.

[Ivory]

Mike actually made a new Air Man that made use of 3D Floors, but the map was unplayable in software mode and was scrapped for a later version/indefinitely.

[Bikdark]

Airman is literally Chokepoints: The Map right now. Possibly cut one of the lower segments entirely, then add paths leading from the other lower segment to both Dive Missile spots? Cover would need to be added to ensure control of the main area isn't over-centralizing.

Or hell, you could do the opposite. Cut one of the dive missile areas, add paths from the lower areas to dive missile.

[NemZ]

How about adding lighting lord clouds to connect the top to the bottom?  Perhaps including a cloud or two that you pass through that prevent homing weapons from targeting you so you aren't just a sitting duck out there.

It would also be cool if the tikis were converted into proper map objects rather than sprites and used in the item1-accessible side areas there now.

[tsukiyomaru0]

Mike actually made a new Air Man that made use of 3D Floors, but the map was unplayable in software mode and was scrapped for a later version/indefinitely.

Is it more unplayable than Burnerman? I mean: I'm forced on Software Mode until ZDN2.0, and Burnerman map slows the game to a crawl.

[fortegigasgospel]

I have no problem on Burnerman. <-<