MM8BDM v4a Mapping Feedback

[Ivory]

Hey all you Mega Man fans! We know some of you aren't happy with map changes (or maps not being changed yet), so this topic is going to be for feedback.

The basic idea is, I will bring up a map and then I leave the topic open for discussion. I won't be dealing with new maps of yet, I will be starting with the v4a updated maps.
Just remember, this is for consideration.

Just a few rules/guidelines to follow:

If you want your opinion to be considered, then have some reasons to back you up. Just saying "Map X sucks, change it" doesn't tell us anything.
Generally, we'll be looking for a majority preference. The more voices which share a similar opinion is more likely to be considered than just a single voice.
Suggestions and recommendations are always helpful. Have an idea on how to improve a map? Then share it.

For an example of bad feedback:

Far superior to this one. It was a balanced map and I see absolutely nothing wrong with it. The layout wasn't boring and it was simple and enjoyable for just about every game mode. Yes, even possession.

Tengu doesn't actually explain anything in detail. His reasoning is very, very vague.

For an example of good feedback:

Ah, pre V4 MM1FIR. That old map is certainly a classic. Small and compact, it was a veteran of many versions undergoing almost no changes from its introduction, apart from a few weapon changes in V2 and V3. It was host to hectic and fast-paced matches with very strong weapons present- Rolling Cutter was a monster at the top room, Scorch Wheel could rip up opponents in the pit from the ramp, Hyper Bomb could lead to a couple of amusing frags by spamming it from the two towers down on preoccupied victims, and the unpredictable Eddie was also present. One of the problems the map suffered from, however, was its virtual inability to hold any more than roughly 8-10 players in a match. The map quickly gets choked when large amounts of players are present, and the fact that such powerful weapons are on the map leads to quickly ended matches and a lot of frustration. It seems to be the main trend for maps now is to cater to Deathmatch purposes, and the new MM1FIR certainly meets these demands.

...Wait a second, what? Deathmatch isn't played often anymore? You're serious?

This seems to be a constant problem I see with updated maps, and MM1FIR is virtually the poster-child of this. MM8BDM was never known for a strong Deathmatch-oriented player base. The new versions do give vanilla DM a resurgence in popularity for (at most) two weeks before Duel and LMS take over once again, often with mods added on in the case of the latter. Is the old MM1FIR good for Deathmatch? Hell no, the map was small, cramped, and very hard to move around with plenty of people playing in it- but you have to realize that Deathmatch is not a very popular mod anymore. MM1FIR was a perfect place for smaller matches and Duels, which make up a large majority of the populated servers after the new version DM resurgence dies down.

And you have to look at the other maps you updated. MM6CEN, MM6WIN, MM4DUS, MM4BRI, MM6PLA- all of these maps have been improved upon in varying states of severity. The problem is, with a couple of them, you're erasing maps that were still good for smaller matches (citing MM4DUS and MM6PLA more or less for these), and the new maps that are coming out don't even come close to the size of the older ones- which are more suitable for the smaller matches that are usually on servers. The new MM1FIR and the MM&B expansion maps do not fill the size guidelines for smaller matches or Duel very well, further shaving off the already small number of maps suited for such matches.

If you're going to make maps bigger in future expansions, you can't make all of the small ones fit the system if they're occupying a vital niche in MM8BDM.

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So starting off, MM2DW1 - Skull Castle Exterior. Thoughts?

[Ivory]

[Reserved for Future Screenshots/Etc]

[TailsMK4]

I've only played a few matches of the new map, but the original map was very open and chaotic. If you were not on the buildings, then you were very likely a target for multiple people, and this comes from someone who enjoys Last Man Standing rather than Deathmatch. Having the new underground segment allows the battling to be split into several small battles rather than a few large ones mixed together. I have mixed feelings about the ladders that allow you to get on top of the area, as being up there allowed you to take a breather and perhaps wreck whatever havoc you can on the people below you. It is still possible to see people coming up the ladder after you, but basically the addition of the ladder removes the unfair advantage that people had on the old map. I still think the openness of the map could probably be a little less on top, but underground seems to be quite nice. Because I'm more of a Last Man Standing person, I don't have much to say about the weapon placement, so I'll leave that to others who play Deathmatch on a more regular basis than I do. If whenever Bot Apocalypse gets updated again, I thank you guys for the changes to the map, since the old map was a nightmare for the people opposite the bot team...

[<geminibro>]

Pretty good, pretty good. Can't say i liked them all.

But one thing that i have to say about Dust Man: The yaschishi is too easy to find. And in the first Wily Tower stage, you can spawn in one of the walls.

Still, you could make a redesign of Crash Man's stage, still involving the ascending pipes. Be creative and use 3D Floors! Or: You can make a play area, and do something with the skybox where it starts out at the lower atmosphere in Crash Man's stage, and as time ticks on, it'll gradually change into space. Ring Man's stage in CSCM does the same thing that i'm talking about.

[Magnet Dood]

I'm proud I got featured for good feedback, thanks for that.

I don't have too many problems with maps as of now. I'll think of any I don't like when I have more time.

[Blutorus]

I can't really think of any off the top of my head that I have any problems with, either. One thing to note is that I actually enjoy most of the new versions of maps that came out instead of the older ones. An example that I can pull up here is that I liked how, with some of the maps, such as Skull Castle 2 Stage 1, you kept the main infrastructure that was there before but you expanded upon it in an attempt to make it better. I'd like to see this done with some more stages, too.

One other one that I find better instead of just being an expansion is Heat Man. I find the new and expanded layout of his stage to be more fun and enjoyable than a smaller and symmetrical box. The same goes for anything other stages that were once very...um, patterned.

[Magnet Dood]

I did not realize we were going map by map.

MM2DW1's changes are all right. The underground is a nice touch (though I'll get to that in a second) and a way to get to the top of the towers without using Item-1 is nice. There's only two things I'd prefer to be done to it.

1. Link up the towers with bridges. Personally, the whole underground thing feels necessary. It's not that I don't like it, I just think it would be better if it was linked up with bridges. That way, you don't have dudes camping out in the bottom of the map and preserve some of the feeling the pre-v4 map had- an all-out brawl in the open. I do like how you can enter the towers and climb up to the top, but then you just can't go anywhere when you climb up to the towers.

2. Lower the height. Is it truly necessary to have the map height at such ridiculous levels? It'd probably help the complaints about Gravity Man being a super-staller in Classes matches (I know it isn't built for mods, but this has been a problem for a while).

[Dr. Freeman]

2. Lower the height. Is it truly necessary to have the map height at such ridiculous levels? It'd probably help the complaints about Gravity Man being a super-staller in Classes matches (I know it isn't built for mods, but this has been a problem for a while).

There's not a lot that can be done about the height to my knowledge, it's that high to make space for the huge Wily Castle sprite in the background. At least, I believe that's the case.

[-FiniteZero-]

2. Lower the height. Is it truly necessary to have the map height at such ridiculous levels? It'd probably help the complaints about Gravity Man being a super-staller in Classes matches (I know it isn't built for mods, but this has been a problem for a while).

There's not a lot that can be done about the height to my knowledge, it's that high to make space for the huge Wily Castle sprite in the background. At least, I believe that's the case.

Well, you could move that sprite to the skybox.

[Ceridran]

The skybox is curved, unfortunately.

[Knux]

I'll simply post this suggestion I had written up on a txt. It may seem like rehashed tripe to Ivory since he read it, but I wanted other people to read it as well.

As much as I want to like the changes to this map, I feel like it's trying to do a whole lot of shit at the same time. I think it would be far better if the ideas were split into two maps (the caves with other textures could be a new map), and that the old MM2DW1 was left intact for the most part. I'll admit that stairs to get on top of the small buildings were a great addition, but everything felt downhill when I hit the cave area. Again, it feels like the map is hogging too much action into it. Believe it or not by the way, the old MM2DW1 was well liked.

I'll also add to this that the current MM2DW1 has eighteen weapons. While the big, open space seems to promise a fun mayhem, I can't seem to enjoy it because of that cave area for reasons already stated.

[Max]

If you want to lower the height of MM2DW1 why not just make the unplayable upper section into a portal like pharaoh man's unplayable portion

[Gummywormz]

Because that sometimes leads to that rendering bug where everything is a hall of mirrors.

[Max]

yeah like once in 80,0000 games

toadman used the same thing

[Tfp BreakDown]

Because that sometimes leads to that rendering bug where everything is a hall of mirrors.

So Is that why that happens on toad's and pharoah's map?