[Suggestion] CTF Weapon Behavior

[Knux]

I was thinking that if at least the AoE weapons functioned in such a way that a whole team can't spam them, they wouldn't be such a big problem. For example, if the weapon token disappeared upon being picked up in CTF just like Skull Barrier does in DM/Duel, respawning at a later time. Although even then, their usefulness would have to be measured by their placement on maps and how much they wreak havoc in general across the layout.

I would also comment on Skull Barrier, but that's getting changed come v5. That said, it would be great if we could start a discussion about CTF weapon changes here.

[MusashiAA]

EDIT: Before any of that, some considerations:

- Given that MM8BDM is full of slow moving projectiles, the flag carrier should not be able to outrun most of these projectiles. Making the flag carrier's movement speed slightly slower should do the trick. If such is the case, then weapons that increase your movement speed shouldn't be changed at all, as they would make the already slowed down flag carrier achieve close to regular player movement speed while using these.

- If a weapon in a map allows a flag carrier to reach places or make jumps that other players normally cannot reach or make without any other weapon in the map, then it's the map's fault for allowing this and its layout thusly should be changed, not the weapon.

- Replenishing items such as E-Tanks or W-Tanks or M-Tanks, despite their functionality, are only obviously unbalanced for CTF if they are way too abundant or respawn too often. And again, this is on the map's fault.

- There is really no reason for CTF variants of certain DM weapons to exist only for CTF. Don't imply that we must work with the same weapons from DM, variants can be created solely for CTF. This does not mean that said variants should behave way too differently from its DM counterpart, there should be some similarities.





Time Slow: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Weapon itself behaves the same.

Oil Slider: Sliding behaves like CBM Oilman, ammo consumption increased, puddles cause slowdown and very little damage on enemies.

Time Stopper: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. To be changed for v5, as of now it should behave like CBM Time Bender.

Leaf Shield: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a short time. Weapon is inmediately fired if the walk button is not held (mimicking Leaf Shield's original MM2 behavior, running means automatic firing) or if the mainfire button is released (while shield is active, you become 50% slower), consuming ammo.

Skull Barrier: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. To be changed for v5, as of now it should slow players down, remove pit protection, and force drop flags.

Gravity Hold: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Weapon behaves the same.

Charge Kick: Ammo consumption could be increased.

Centaur Flash: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. To be changed for v5, as of now firing it should force drop flags and prevent users from picking it up for a short time.

Flame Blast: Power protection is granted to enemies hit by it to prevent deadly stacks.

Plant Barrier: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a short time. Firing the weapon force drops the flag, can't pick up the flag while it's active, and heals other players instead of healing the user.

Junk Shield: While the shield is up, movement speed is slowed down.

Scorch Wheel: No speed boost.

Tornado Hold: No damage to enemies that get caught in it.

Astro Crush: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. One time use, deals much less damage.

Flash Bomb: No hitstun, deals less damage, power protection granted to enemies hit by it to prevent deadly stacks.

Tengu Blade: Charge time is slightly increased, or a longer movement halt is added at the end of a dash.

Lightning Bolt: Weapon token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Weapon is changed: fires a high damaging singular bolt wherever you aim it at, uses up as much ammo as the normal one.

Ice Wall: Wall has less HP, after firing one wall it can't be refired again until completely gone.

Remote Mine: Other Remote Mines destroy each other, deals less damage, mines can only be fired once the previously fired one's explosion fully fades away.

Mirror Buster: Ammo consumption is increased.

Sakugarne: Ammo consumption is doubled.

Bass Buster: Token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Movement speed is reduced while firing it.

Super Adapter: Token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Double jumping force drops the flag. Slightly increased jump height to compensate. Buster stays the same.

Arrow/Laser Buster/Duo Fist: Token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Deals less damage, charge colors/sound effects are distinctively different to differentiate them from other charge weapons.

Treble Boost: Token disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Same case as Super Adapter: double jumping activates flight, ammo is consumed way faster, double jumping force drops the flag.

E-Tank: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. E-Tank healing is progressive and not instantaneous, healing is stopped by taking damage.

M-Tank: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. M-Tank replenishing is progressive and not instantaneous, or it only replenish 50% of all special weapons.

Item-2: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. If hit while riding it, sticky script is forced to end, and you will unstick from the rocketboard.

Rush Jet: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. As is, cannot pick up the flag while using it, inmediately drops the flag on usage. OR a revamp with these same flag rules: it replaces the Megabuster, fire to summon Rush and ride him like Item 2 with slight differences: slightly slower, jumping or weapon switching will make it go forward without you/disappear, can turn, cannot strafe, cannot go straight up or straight down, can only use the Megabuster while riding it.

Wire Adapter: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Can only carry one at a time.

Beat Call: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Behaves more closely to its MM7 appearance: no controlled flight, slows down players by 50%. Flag can still be carried.

Exit Unit: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Drops the flag on usage.

Reggae Call: Item disappears upon pickup, respawns after a long time. Drops the flag on usage. OR a revamp, works differently from its DM counterpart: if you are carrying the flag, Reggae will home into any nearby player and give them the flag, taking it from you: this means he can target both allies or enemies, so be careful. If Reggae cannot target anybody, it will simply teleport away after a short time and inmediately respawn the flag back at its base.

[King Dumb]

I'm not particularly fond of adjusting weapon/item behavior for different modes. It's messy, clunky, and is the most naive remedy.

If we want certain weapons to be usable in CTF that currently aren't feasible for one reason or another, the only two good paths in my mind are either changing the weapon overall, or employing an already-built-in, intuitive restraint on it. The former is difficult but technically always possible, but for something like Scorch Wheel or Charge Kick very hard to justify. The latter is, in my own opinion, very limited; the only thing I can think of off the top of my head is disappearance upon pickup, but that only works for a few things. I'm not even keen on altering ammo consumption by mode.

I think we need to admit somewhere that certain weapons just aren't meant for CTF. (Certain weapons just aren't meant for FPS games but we're making it work the best we can). There are certain other measures that could allow some of these weapons to be placed on CTF maps without breaking everything (of the sort that Knux mentioned: placement, effectiveness on the layout, ammo and health availability, what other weapons are there); whether these require bending a map too much just to accommodate a particular weapon, I don't know. Some weapons/items I really just don't see any hope for in CTF in their current state (Centaur Flash, Treble Boost, Time Slow, to name a few).

[Russel]

thanks KD

moved to rejected because this suggestion seems fairly unreasonable