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Author Topic: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily  (Read 15074 times)

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March 14, 2016, 03:07:32 AM
Reply #15

Offline Isaac940

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Re: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2016, 03:07:32 AM »
The initial build here is interesting, but seems like it could use polish/tweaking in areas. Throwing out some random thoughts I had after that first session;

-Thunder mentioned it earlier but the HP drain can get a little crazy, especially in packed servers. Having it either cap at a point or act in a logarithmic fashion might help that, and encourage and reward boss hunting rather than just deathmatching each other still.

-Boss bots can be really frustrating to fight due to their increased speed. It may be due to their current lack of firepower making them flee all the time but it seems like the best strategy once the boss appears is to flat ignore them and focus on killing their allies to damage them that way. All the better if the map has a weapon that's easy to tag them just once with to finish them off once they hit 1 HP from ally deaths. I'm pretty sure the majority of the matches I saw ended with the boss at one HP via teammate deaths and then getting hit by something.

-Bosses are kinda frustrating to play as at times. This may get alleviated once Giga Weps are introduced proper, but at the moment being offensive seems like a bad idea. If the players per team is kinda low, it seems like your best bet is to zoom around corridors and take potshots at anyone you pass, but don't engage them head on. Meanwhile if the playercount is high, pick a spot where you can bolt fast if things get terrible and camp out there cause player saturation means your health is going to tank fast.

-Do you intend for matches to be quick? They seem to last like 2-3 minutes tops at the current settings.

-Personal gripe; I don't like E.Bot's dark purple color scheme, it seems too close to blue for me. There were quite a few times I saw him in the corner of my vision and associated him with the blue team at first because I wasn't focused on him.

March 14, 2016, 07:35:32 AM
Reply #16

Offline Dimpsy

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Re: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2016, 07:35:32 AM »
so i played in the server and noticed a few gripes
you can basically shred through the superbot's HP with weapons like top spin or sakugarne, give them a bit of resistance to those weapons
and you could make it so the giga fist goes through shields because it's kind of annoying trying to hit someone who has a proto shield on them because you cannot regen health but they can
i was also told that a server with more players could boost the superbot's armor a bit but i haven't been able to test with anymore than a couple people due to hopping in pretty late
so yea other than that this mod is pretty neat... a little safe but neat

EDIT: the superbots should also respawn if they land in a pit similar to how unholy bosses works

March 14, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
Reply #17

Offline Gumballtoid

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Re: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2016, 12:33:54 PM »
Quote from: "Superjustinbros"
May I ask, will the Kid Icarus "Stage Clear" theme be added in as your side's victory theme?

If I recall, we wanted something like this, but I think we only used the Kid Icarus defeat theme since there wasn't an appropriate one in core.

Overall, I didn't really like playing the mod myself, considering the life drain aspect Origin Duo and Evil Robot receive (even if it was a part of the original game). I do like the concept especially I'm all for porting game modes from other games, but this execution leaves something to be desired, in my tastes.

Well said. We wanted to push a release without the weapons because, with development becoming super stagnant, we wanted to put something out for folks to play. This would give us the incentive we need to get back to it, in addition to livening up the server list.

The mod could deviate from being a straight-up port of Light vs. Dark and be altered in various aspects to overall improve the game experience, making it more enjoyable in this different type of gameplay style, with more "Light" and "Wily" characters to morph into, different soundtracks, and making O.Duo and E.Robot (and any other "leader" characters) feel more like powerhouses.

The name Light vs Wily came naturally when I wanted to port Light vs Dark over to MM8BDM. Initially my plan was to have Skull Suit Wily and that suited Light skin as the bosses, but then it occurred to me that there were super-powered alien robots at our disposal with more interesting potential, so we went that route. Other bosses probably aren't going to happen because that would deviate too drastically from what we had in mind. However, giga weapons should suffice once we have those ready to ship.

Quote from: "Thunderono"
I mentioned it in the server and I brought it up to the devs themselves but I may as well post it here for discussion's sake

What if the HP drain's cap (which normally stops at 1 HP) scaled with the amount of players in the server?  That way, fuller servers could allow the boss a buffer to escape if his team's dying left and right (which would likely happen due to player saturation).

I'm thinking something along these lines -- drain stops at a certain point and the gauge begins to flash to indicate the boss is near death. I think it would work well.

That said, this is a total blast to play.  I feel like a lot of people are forgetting that bosses aren't always self-sufficient-- in this instance, teamwork is required to keep the boss alive, and having a large team dissolve will only harm the boss.  Grouping up and moving around to take down enemies in tandem with the boss is the key to making comebacks happen.

This is what we had hoped for. Admittedly in crowded servers it's pretty hard to keep your team together, and with the boss's instagib movement, even more so, but we're mulling ideas around.

Quote from: "Isaac940"
The initial build here is interesting, but seems like it could use polish/tweaking in areas. Throwing out some random thoughts I had after that first session;

-Thunder mentioned it earlier but the HP drain can get a little crazy, especially in packed servers. Having it either cap at a point or act in a logarithmic fashion might help that, and encourage and reward boss hunting rather than just deathmatching each other still.

We'll definitely put forth some incentive. That's in the works.

-Boss bots can be really frustrating to fight due to their increased speed. It may be due to their current lack of firepower making them flee all the time but it seems like the best strategy once the boss appears is to flat ignore them and focus on killing their allies to damage them that way. All the better if the map has a weapon that's easy to tag them just once with to finish them off once they hit 1 HP from ally deaths. I'm pretty sure the majority of the matches I saw ended with the boss at one HP via teammate deaths and then getting hit by something.

For the time I was there, I saw similar things happen. That's something we'll be looking at.

-Bosses are kinda frustrating to play as at times. This may get alleviated once Giga Weps are introduced proper, but at the moment being offensive seems like a bad idea. If the players per team is kinda low, it seems like your best bet is to zoom around corridors and take potshots at anyone you pass, but don't engage them head on. Meanwhile if the playercount is high, pick a spot where you can bolt fast if things get terrible and camp out there cause player saturation means your health is going to tank fast.

We overloaded the giga fists as an afterthought when we decided to release without giga weapons. I can see how this would be a problem.

-Do you intend for matches to be quick? They seem to last like 2-3 minutes tops at the current settings.

We hoped they'd be a bit longer than traditional matches, which is why we recommend a win limit of 2.

-Personal gripe; I don't like E.Bot's dark purple color scheme, it seems too close to blue for me. There were quite a few times I saw him in the corner of my vision and associated him with the blue team at first because I wasn't focused on him.

To be honest, I never really had trouble picking him out, but that might be because I've been looking at it for a year and a half.
Quote from: "Dimpsy"
so i played in the server and noticed a few gripes
you can basically shred through the superbot's HP with weapons like top spin or sakugarne, give them a bit of resistance to those weapons
That's definitely something we'll look at.
and you could make it so the giga fist goes through shields because it's kind of annoying trying to hit someone who has a proto shield on them because you cannot regen health but they can
I think we intended to do this but it slipped our minds. We'll look at that as well.
i was also told that a server with more players could boost the superbot's armor a bit but i haven't been able to test with anymore than a couple people due to hopping in pretty late
Each boss has 150 base health. With every additional player on the enemy team, the boss gets 35 additional health.
so yea other than that this mod is pretty neat... a little safe but neat

EDIT: the superbots should also respawn if they land in a pit similar to how unholy bosses works
I think we were against this before, but we'll look at that again.

March 14, 2016, 06:47:52 PM
Reply #18

Offline IamaMedalHunter

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Re: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2016, 06:47:52 PM »
Now now. They've said everthing I wanted to say, but I'll express my thoughts nonetheless.

I really like the concept of this. Really. I find this mod rather unique as it's like some fusion of "One vs The World" and "Decimate the other team".
It really would have been good if the execution's flaws didn't set everything back though.
Every round begins with the "TDM phase" and everything goes all well, until a boss shows up.

When in a Boss Phase :
-the team members have to look out for their HP and should prioritize their boss's safety, as they share the same HP bar
-the boss can't allow himself to fight head-on and should help their allies on the battlefield
-in the current version, Giga Weapons aren't implemented yet : the Boss only has Giga Fist which is mainly a fall-back weapon, based on the damage input (30 per mid-fist and 65 per charge-fist) and on the fact that these fists don't require cooldown compared to the Giga Weapons (maybe?) and on the Giga Fists' rate of fire.

These imply major issues for now :
-In crowded servers, Boss's HP drains too fast mainly because of the allies. This encourages team decimating instead of Boss hunting. Just imagine an enemy with a scary weapon : Astro Crush, Top Spin and Star Hug could be good examples. They're good for clearing groups. And there goes the team's Boss health.
To correct that, it was suggested by others to stop the HP drain when the Boss's HP reaches an absolute minimum value (as in a number scaled for x enemies instead of 1HP). I'd suggest a percentage minimum instead, maybe 25% or 33% of HP left so the boss always has some health for enemies. Having the allies' deaths drain way less could be a good option too.
-Although the Boss must be very cautious for his health, he cannot let his allies die on the front. He must support them. Except that all he has is a Giga fist : a weapon made either for self-defence and finishing off(mid-fists), either for raw damage at the price of rapid fire (charged fist). And with slow projectiles at that ... The boss certainly can't really help his allies who can often snatch way better weapons ! With a current limited support role, and being hypothetically the most important member of the team, he compares more to the useless king that you have to babysit when playing chess than to an amazing general leading an army.
It's very obvious that this mod is incomplete without the Giga Weapons that would make the boss so much more helpful than the coward who has to run away and hide, waiting for their team to destroy the enemies' Boss.

The boss itself should have some really needed buffs too :
-May be an issue with the boss itself : he's not protected at all against fatal damage. Weapons that deal lots of damage at a fast rate, such as Astro Crush, Top Spin, and Star Hug, and SakuGarne, just destroy the boss like with ordinary players. Bosses also die instantly when falling far to their doom.
Maybe the boss is intended not to be resistant to pits and these weapons, but I saw in the code that the boss is indeed resistant to AtomicFire3. So ... I don't know if they were to be resistant to the destroyer weapons indeed, but if they were ... it would make games much more interesting than "Hahaha ! You fell !" and "You got One-Hit Destroyed !!! LOL".
-A small issue with Giga Fists : fists just get blocked by shields. Proto Shield, Leaf Shield (and maybe Jewel Satellite soon ?) just completly ignore alien energy punches. Anyone using these shields makes the boss even more useless.
Just have the fists rip through shields to make them a decent fall-back option please.

With all of that said, this mod could become really liked by most of us if the needed fixes are brought. I'm looking forward to the real complete Light vs Wily.

PS : One last thing. It's just nitpicking but I'm not really fond of having a victory jingle from Megaman mixed with a defeat jingle from Kid Icarus. Do you think you can either use a Megaman defeat jingle OR a Kid Icarus victory jingle (https://youtu.be/GFvPamVRFRg?t=8m10s) ?

February 17, 2021, 12:05:01 PM
Reply #19

Offline hansungkee

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Re: [Game Mode] Light vs. Wily
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2021, 12:05:01 PM »
Some Things Need Upgrade for MM8BDM V6?