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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => MM8BDM Discussion => Topic started by: LlamaHombre on April 13, 2016, 02:17:22 AM

Title: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: LlamaHombre on April 13, 2016, 02:17:22 AM

Hello everyone, sorry it took so long to get this up.

By now most of you should be familiar with this thread (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=9903). We on the team have gotten some great advice from this thread over v5's development and as we approach our final screenings there exists a need to turn our primary focus to weapon balance and retooling. So as a result, we'll be turning to the community once again for their thoughts on how we could make some of the more overwhelming or underwhelming weapons fit in alongside the rest of the game.

Note that the format and rules for this thread are pretty much those of the aforementioned v5 maps thread, meaning that analysis and suggestion are going to give your opinion more weight than vague observation. Something I'd like to try for this thread however is an attempt to globalize discussion towards a given topic for periods of time, and try to cycle through a list of weapons suggested by the community. For example, our first subject will be Atomic Fire. Until we've heard enough to draw a conclusion for action or a consensus in a different direction, discussion should mainly be directed towards the fate of Atomic Fire for v5. That said, I'd like to request that following posts you list any weapons that you would like for discussion to turn to next. If a weapon has a cause, then it'll be next in queue and so on. Hopefully this will give us the productivity we got from the v5 maps thread while also providing some closure to complaints that the thread was too open-ended. If this works, chances are it'll become the staple for things in the future. We'll see.

But for now, let's focus on Atomic Fire. We're looking forward to some discussion, and we'll hopefully be ready to chime in here and there as decisions are made.

Table of Contents:

(click to show/hide)

Atomic Fire [Completed] - Page 1
Search Snake [Tweaking] - Page 4
Pharaoh Shot [Tweaking] - Page 7
Leaf Shield [Discussing] - Page 10

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Thunderono on April 13, 2016, 02:29:20 AM

Atomic Fire's actually pretty tricky.  Without OHKO potential, you basically remove the weapon from the game, but with it, it's a total piece of shit.  I'm going to tentatively say I think the OHKO should stay in, but at dramatic costs to its current viability.

First off, an ammo consumption nerf would be required.  If you whiff your giant ripping OHKO, you need to work to get a full charge back.  The second two are interchangeable; either give it a range limit, or, as the option I'd prefer, delay the actual shot when the charge is released.  You could possibly add a visual indicator to the weapon being fired as well, so that somebody caught could have warning.  I think the delay helps in the way that twitch shots would no longer happen (or at least happen far less than before), and the visual indicator would give an observant opponent time to dodge the attack.  I understand it's a little hacky and it'd take some doing to increase clarity to the user on when the shot will actually come out, but in its current state it's nigh unstoppable and I feel like this is the best way to cut down on random deaths to an unforeseeable atomic fire shot.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and I'd like to see Silver Tomahawk on the plate next.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: MusashiAA on April 13, 2016, 04:39:44 AM

My ideas and recollections on Atomic Fire and potential changes:

-Makes a lot of noise when charging, with no penalty to holding the charge...other than making yourself very easy to spot and literally a walking target of higher priority, which I'd assume was the intended penalty, but this has proven to be a non-issue in offensive play (which is to say the only kind of play in 8BDM DM IMO). Many things have been suggested towards penalizing the hold charge already over the years, none of which I can recall specifically. Maybe take a hint from the original Atomic Fire from MM2, and lose the charge if you're damaged while charging: that way, there's a bigger penalty in holding the charge and letting your position be known to nearby enemies.

-Huge destructive power on that full charge ripper shot. It travels so far without its power decaying over time, too. Maybe put a range limit to the full charge shot a-la Mega Man X5's Gaea Armor full charge shot? Trade off tremendous power with a medium range projectile.

-50 damage on that medium charge shot, and 12 damage on the small one. They're actually both ok, small one being a stronger Mega Buster, and mid charge being essentially following the 2HKO standard for all charge weapons except Homing Sniper and the MM8 busters, despite being super restrictive with only having 5 mid charge shots.

-The weapon itself, as it is, captures the essence of the original weapon pretty straightforward, and doesn't merit a big revamp, else this essence might be lost: the only problems arise with the lack of a real, perceivable tradeoff to forever holding it.

I wanna bring Scorch Wheel into discussion: you only get 4 shots of it, but the range that wheel projectile can cover is beyond ridiculous, it's bigger than it lends itself to be, which makes it harder to dodge unless you perceive it as an actual huge barrage of constant spawning explosions.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Knux on April 13, 2016, 05:03:15 AM

As it stands, Atomic Fire's main point is to charge it up to maximum, build pressure on players and unleash a OHKO on their faces. Powerful weapons such as Astro Crush and Hard Knuckle have their drawbacks, such as standing still and suffering knockback respectively. In the case of Atomic Fire, all you need to do is get away, charge it up then look for a victim. From a Deathmatch perspective, it depends on the map. Like say, a map such as MM1CUT has an overall small layout so the risk of players getting too far ahead of you in frags or getting killed before you even charge up to two levels is a lot higher. However, in MM5DAR it's a pretty damn good strategy to charge it up when it's less crowded, then look for victims. The fact that it can rip means that if it's shot down a crowded hallway, it could mean more than one ezpz kill. Whether they land said shot or not, players can potentially continue along their merry way and charge up another shot to try and score a strike down the alley again.

While this has been Atomic Fire since v1a, and I'm used to the way it works, I have to agree that it's not practical. Therefore, I have a couple of suggestions. The idea is to keep the "build pressure, unleash huge damage" theme the weapon has going, but looking at it from a different perspective.

A. Damaging Afterimages - when Atomic lvl3 is shot, it is a one-hit projectile whose impact does pretty high damage but doesn't OHKO. However, the afterimages that trail behind said shot can "rip" a bit farther (maybe 128 - 192 units?) after the projectile has hit, causing damage akin to Laser Buster but much less damaging. With this method, you can still OHKO a player if the shot and most of the afterimages connect, and potentially get others damaged with the afterimages. As a bonus, these Atomic afterimages could rip through walls to give the weapon more utility, but this isn't really needed.

B. Distance Power Decrease - when Atomic lvl3 is shot, it works as it does now. However, at mid-range, it becomes a lvl2 shot. At long range, it continues on as a lvl1 shot. You can still get OHKOs on players, but you need to earn it by getting somewhat close or with prediction around corners. No need to fear a stray lvl3 shot anymore, though. If you hear Atomic Fire being charged at maximum, chances are you're within OHKO range.

As for weapons to discuss next, please let it be Noise Crush. I already made a suggestion about it here (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10236).

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: fortegigasgospel on April 13, 2016, 05:39:05 AM

Honestly I'm gonna say an idea that comes to mind for a nerf to Atomic Fire while keeping it similar and not too drastic of a nerf would be to have the middle of the shot more powerful and the outside of the shot weaker while actually making the projectile a tad bit bigger (found out a full charge AF is actually MUCH smaller then it looks).
While sure the shot is getting slightly larger it makes it more likely to hit terrain, and grazing blows won't deal all that much damage while a direct hit will still kill you. Meanwhile you could effectively use this as a means to actually make the entire shot weaker, if it consists of about lets say 5 shots tightly packed together (2 weak (15) on each side, 2 mid (30) on each side, and a strong (50) in the middle), the total damage between all the shots could still equal OHKO. Alternatively each section of the shot could deal the same amount of damage (30). In both methods being hit by only half of the shot won't kill you but leave a nasty scar (95 for the prior, 90 for the later) while a direct hit of the entire shot will still end it all.

As for a weapon to look into, I half wanna say to look into Star Crash, I don't recall if it is still considered a problem, if it isn't forget I mentioned it.
Edit: Actually yea, Star Crash, I thought of a way to make it feel more accurate, less "I get in range of this and you die," while not nerfing it too hard, and as well as fixing part of the problem with Scorch Wheel mentioned by Musashi.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Orange juice :l on April 13, 2016, 05:55:46 AM

I disagree with the idea that atomic fire should grow weaker over distance. The idea of intentionally sniping people with such a slow shot is unlikely, and frankly the one in a million idea of someone getting absolutely DE_STROYED from across the map because they weren't paying attention or turned the corner at the worst time is humorous enough to merit leaving it in.

On the other hand, a huge amount of Atomic Fire's power comes from the "Atomic Bullfight", wherein you simply rush your opponent down until you're in booty-touching range and can promptly OHKO them with solid accuracy due to the large hitbox. While the noise mitigates this somewhat and getting in buckshot range is never a safe idea, you've got so much frontloaded damage (100 could be considered a lot) that you can often either take your shot and get a quick kill before being damaged down or bail out if it goes sour, denying the opponent the ability to chase by threatening with an instakill.

To this end I would suggest one of two things:
1. Lost charge upon damage threshold.
If you get too up close and personal, you're gonna pay for it. With this change, you have to take your shot ASAP instead of taking your time to line it up. This threshold would be something around 15 damage so that any serious shot will cost you the charge but simply taking environmental/AoE damage might not immediately lose it.
2. Wind-up speed.
This will give victims a chance to dodge out of the way while still punishing them for getting into booty-eviscerating range. Leading shots will still be possible when the overall distance/time evens out at a middling range and its top speed will be slightly higher to compensate.

Title: You do Atomic Fire first INSTEAD of Pharaoh Shot?!
Post by: Mendez on April 13, 2016, 06:29:19 AM

I'm really liking the idea that Musashi had about making the player lose their charge if they take damage since it gives the opponent a reason to fight back instead of running away like a coward. That way, it can synnergize well with the idea that you're making a lot of noise and drawing attention to yourself, so you need to be stealthy with your positioning or else you're going to get punished.
Personally, I'd reduce the projectile speed for the fully-charged shot since that's what makes it so annoying to dodge. I'm fine with a big hitbox, and I'm fine with lots of damage, since that's what gives Atomic Fire its identity. What I'm not fine with is that you can't really avoid the shot if you're less than 192 pixels away, on account of how quickly that shot can travel. If it's a big powerful blast, there's gotta be some weight to the blast. It can't zoom at you and give you almost no time to react. Make it like the quad laser and you'll have me sold.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: MusashiAA on April 13, 2016, 06:41:41 AM

I actually looked at the hitboxes too, and was surprised that the shots are far smaller than what the projectile graphics are, pretty much up to par with the Mega Buster's pellets. Now, I didn't suggest a bigger hitbox because of two reasons:

1.- A bigger hitbox means its easier to land.
2.- A bigger hitbox means its harder to fire next to walls/in small corridors.

The second reason far outweighting the first one, as way too big projectiles tend to get in the way of odd and uneven map geometry far too often and get eaten, which you don't want when trying to use Atomic Fire: it doesn't lend itself too well in practice for this case.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Gumballtoid on April 13, 2016, 11:36:44 AM

My biggest problem with the weapon is just how accessible it is. On maps like MM1CUT, it's right there, dead center, up for grabs. That's something that should be considered, I feel.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Max on April 13, 2016, 11:40:12 AM

so the weapon's really really instakill powerful
so it has a large charge time to remedy that and be close to the game

but that's overpowered because you can just hold it forever run around and then blast someones face off
so make the charge fizzle out if you dont shoot it within a while, keep the buildup payoff but nerf the op easy option
e z

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: NemZ on April 13, 2016, 03:37:40 PM

How about switching it up so that it's speed, size and damage scale up with distance traveled, with charge levels determining the size of the scaling factor?  Make something that actually wants to be used for sniping.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Hallan Parva on April 13, 2016, 06:09:03 PM

hi brief thoughts
I agree with most of the points brought up earlier, I'm just formatting them


Atomic Fire - Level 2 Incinerator

uncharged > Level 1 charge time decreased
Level 1 > Level 2 charge time increased
at Level 1, a "Durability" meter is displayed over the ammo bar
Durability decreases with damage taken; zero Durability breaks the charge (restarting after a short delay, if Fire is held)
Durability starts at X (15? 20?), and increases by X when Level 2 is reached

Aside from the obvious problem of the full charge, another gripe I have is just how short the window of the half-charge currently is. It takes about 4 seconds to get to half-charge, but only about a second and a half before a full charge is reached. This window is so short, that without the distinct charge sound, I'm sure most players would have forgotten it was even there. I'm all for seeing weapons being used in different ways (the uncharged firing rate and ammo buffs were a godsend), and if the midcharge was more viable, I feel like the tactic of "hide until Atomic is ready" wouldn't be so prevalent if the Atomic Fire user had something to work with. Conversely, this also helps with the suggested balancing point of losing the charge; not only would the opponent be encouraged to chase down the Atomic Fire user and force their charge to fizzle out, but the Atomic Fire user would also feel encouraged to release the charge early, possibly dealing some damage with the half-charge instead of gambling on the OHKO.

But that's just a theory.



As for "problem children", my focus turns not to a dominant or overpowering weapon, but one that is far too weak and situational to even be considered viable, despite its popular nickname: Search Snake.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Gumballtoid on April 13, 2016, 07:14:56 PM

If it were up to me, I would just remove the OHKO from the full charge, instead making it stupidly powerful. That way, if you don't finish a dude off with the 90-ish-damage charged shot, you can pepper them with the uncharged bits and finish them off that way.

I don't like the idea of "durability" simply because I don't like the idea of the weapon being needlessly complex -- Mirror Buster still confuses the heck out of me.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on April 13, 2016, 07:27:25 PM

I can't quite remember how Atomic Fire is with getting it's ammo back from weapon energy capsules. I think it's the same as most weapons? If so it might be worth considering lowering the amount of ammo you get from said capsules, as that will discourage people from relying solely on Atomic Fire.

A big problem the weapon has is simply its accessibility. It's an OHKO weapon that just requires a bit of time to get ready, which you can easily do during the moments where you're not in action. Gotta make it appear less frequently, and less reachable in maps that have Atomic Fire.

I also like the idea of losing charge upon getting hit. If losing all the weapon charge is too extreme, then losing some charge would work. The ideas of slowing the projectile slightly and adding a mild delay to the attack also sound good, as OHKO attacks in a game like this mustn't be easy to pull off, which is one of the issues this weapon has.

Not entirely sure about the next weapon I'd like to see discussed, but I do feel like Search Snake is a little too limited in use.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Thunderono on April 13, 2016, 07:33:51 PM

I actually really like the idea of charge loss on damage.  It helps an alert player stop the madness without completely destroying the viability of the weapon for an attacker.  Twitch shots would still exist, unfortunately, but it would help more in the long run to have a definite counterplay to an enemy wielding Atomic Fire.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Korby on April 13, 2016, 07:40:52 PM

Personally, I'm fond of three changes that would aim to remove extraneous power from the weapon.

Increase Lvl3 Shot ammo cost to more than half. Reduces dominance in LMS-based game-modes while not really impacting its use in DM.
 Add a short delay before firing. Reduces dominance in point blank scenarios and requires a bit more foresight in order to use the weapon.
 Add a range limit. Removes cases where you get free kills for no reason whatsoever by hitting someone on the other side of the map.

I don't like the idea of removing the instakill because it gives Atomic Fire a unique niche among pretty much every other weapon in the game.
I'm also hesitant on removing its ripping properties because it allows for some really cool highs when you manage to snag multiple frags with it at once, although it's possible we'll have to remove it to balance the weapon.

Much like Gumball said, I'd prefer if the changes we end up putting in were on the simpler side, or changes made are intuitive enough that you can figure it out without being told.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Gumballtoid on April 13, 2016, 08:41:38 PM

Yeah, that's my biggest concern. In a fast-paced arena shooter like this, knowing exactly what you're getting into when you grab the weapon is super important in keeping pace.

I like those first two changes there a lot, but I'm partial on the third if only because accidental cross-map kills are stupidly funny.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: MusashiAA on April 13, 2016, 09:55:16 PM

I agree with the argument on how accessible the OHKO charge weapon is on most maps, even despite its large destructive power. The thing is that, if I wanted a good charge weapon, I'd pick every other charge weapon instead of Atomic Fire simply because charging times are faster/almost instant, while still keeping a 2HKO projectile: Atomic Fire's mid charge shot (50 damage) takes a longer time to charge up in comparison to other charge weapons' full charge shots, and uses way more ammo than these. Not to mention the fact that it takes so long to build up the OHKO shot while also exposing your position to players that pay attention to their surroundings. Atomic Fire is not even the 2nd best charge weapon because of the things I mentioned, it's only picked because of the OHKO shot, which takes time to build up, and imposes drawbacks onto those who use it outside of its OHKO shot ability: a more ammo-balanced charge weapon or a more instant charge weapon is just so much versatile and better in the long run, which is why I don't think Atomic Fire being too accessible is a huge deal, but just a side fact to bring up.

The entire essence of Atomic Fire is that it's the OHKO weapon: for the time it takes to build up, anything but a OHKO shot would be on the unfair side, even a really high 2HKO dealing 90 damage which just feels like a huge cock tease. I don't see a huge problem with Atomic Fire dealing YOU DIE damage, especially when taking into account its tradeoffs as a charge weapon. If people are willing to just only use Atomic Fire, they are also already throwing away more efficient ways of racking up points in deathmatch.



If there's one thing everybody should understand about vanilla DM balance, is that you want to keep its weapons as easily understandable as possible: the more side effects and gimmicks you add into it, the more it deviates from this philosophy of keeping things simple. Durability, stamina, damage scaling, special properties of certain sections of the projectiles, all of these are valid ways to change or nerf Atomic Fire...the thing is, conveying the meaning of these concepts, which are IMO already complex, through direct play adds one more layer of depth to what should be basic to understand, and as designers, we shouldn't expect users to "understand our logic" or "assume users are idiots so make it basic", but instead to blend the practicality of our designs to the uses these players give to them.............ionno, it's kinda hard for me to explain, but vanilla tries to keep it simple most of the time, so these things I don't really wanna see tackled into core weapons. Stuff like charge fizzling out or being cancelled by damage, ammo nerfs, maybe firing delays, projectile speed or damage value decrease/increase, these are tied to the direct practicality of the weapon, without adding a layer of information that requires more in-depth understanding of the mechanics of the game.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Messatsu on April 15, 2016, 04:48:03 PM

All these talks of nerfs and ways to make the weapon worse just seem misguided.  I think what needs to be analyzed is how the weapon is broken in various modes.  I can certainly in LMS a weapon that can straight up kill you outright is broken since you can round a corner an BAM-Dead.  It also doesn't help that it's handed out to every player so I can clearly see how it would be favored.  However other modes like DM require the player to obtain the weapon.  Placement is critical here.  A weapon such as the BFG would be broken as hell in DOOM if it was out in the middle of a level.

My thoughts on Atomic Fire are to go a slightly different direction.

1.) Increase the radius of the largest projectile to match the sprite size.  This will make it less than ideal to use in cramped quarters since the probability of hitting a wall is greater.  Sure it's harder to dodge, but this also means that the players aim must be a bit more precise with their aim.
2.) Decrease damage from 100 to 35.  This projectile is a ripper and thus likely will hit 3 times to still kill the player, but glancing blows will no longer instantly OHKO on touching it.

One thing to keep in mind is that changes to weapons can easily bring a weapon from OP to garbage and visa versa VERY easily.  The key is that the weapon must be FUN to use and fight against in all modes as much as possible.

Also:

Quote from: "MusashiAA"

If there's one thing everybody should understand about vanilla DM balance, is that you want to keep its weapons as easily understandable as possible: the more side effects and gimmicks you add into it, the more it deviates from this philosophy of keeping things simple.

Very well said!

Title: Mods are murder
Post by: Bikdark on April 15, 2016, 06:25:57 PM

Oh sorry allow me to reiterate my point for you

Due to dm's unpopularity, volatility, and bad reputation, it would be best to only factor in ease of acquisition for it, and leave numbers-based changes to TDM, TLMS, CTF, and duel. While acquisition in these game modes is just as important, dm should not be given much representation.
 
In other words: Cmon nobody gives a shit about dm (in relation to Atomic Fire of course, because apparently that wasnt obvious enough the first time I said it for you ;) )

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Sonnitude on April 15, 2016, 06:30:39 PM

Atomic fire seems fine to me, its kinda hard to hit with the full charge, and it does cost a lot of weapon energy to fire, I say leave it alone, or if you are gonna add anything, maybe just make it so you can only fire 3 fully charged shots, and don't get the mid charged shot if you use all 3 on a full bar.

Title: Re: Mods are murder
Post by: Messatsu on April 15, 2016, 06:54:11 PM

Quote from: "Bikdark"

Oh sorry allow me to reiterate my point for you

Due to dm's unpopularity, volatility, and bad reputation, it would be best to only factor in ease of acquisition for it, and leave numbers-based changes to TDM, TLMS, CTF, and duel. While acquisition in these game modes is just as important, dm should not be given much representation.
 
In other words: Cmon nobody gives a shit about dm (in relation to Atomic Fire of course, because apparently that wasnt obvious enough the first time I said it for you ;) )

DM is a part of the game and is supported.  Your opinion on this matter is irrelevant to the conversation.  The topic is currently about Atomic Fire, so if you wish to comment upon thoughts for the weapon, (Which I see you have not done) then please, by all means.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Watzup7856 on April 15, 2016, 07:14:41 PM

I agree with keeping it simple so new players could pick up on it easily.

Having it drain ammo when charging seems like a bad idea to me for it would just have the opponent running away until they are out of ammo.

Having charge be diminished when hit seems like a good idea to me, since you can't just whip it out on an opponent and have instant pressure. Although this could be a little too extreme because all the pressure from Atomic Fire would be gone. I think it should have some pressure put on the opponent, but not the way it is now.

My idea right now would to have it go down 1 charge level when a certain amount of damage is done. Like if someone was at level 3 charge and 35 damage was caused, it would go down to level 2. Maybe not 35 damage, but something that seems the most balanced.

Title: Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch
Post by: MusashiAA on April 15, 2016, 07:30:25 PM

Quote from: "Messatsu"

I think what needs to be analyzed is how the weapon is broken in various modes.

In LMS/TLMS, you only have two shots of Atomic Fire's full charge shot. No pickups to regain ammo (unless I'm greatly mistaken and used to Classes LMS, which has no ammo pickups), thusly greatly limiting the weapon in comparison to DM: good aim is far more fundamental in this mode, if you miss a shot, might as well throw the weapon away. With the same drawbacks from DM in mind, anything but a OHKO shot is not rewarding enough for full charge, and this is further emphasized given the lack of ammo regeneration: perhaps only the 50 damage mid charge shot is more versatile for this mode, if you didn't have only 6 shots of it in comparison to Pharaoh Shot full charge shot's or Noise Crush full charge shot's crapload of them. Getting Atomic Fire in LMS/TLMS is, despite the OHKO combo possibilities, very unlucky as I've commented earlier on how less useful it is in comparison to the other charge weapons: I'd rather get these instead of Atomic Fire. If we only take into account LMS/TLMS, the changes you suggested would be a perfect fit, maybe add a slight ammo buff for it.

The possibilities of brokenness in other modes shouldn't be brought upon the table as reasons to nerf/buff this weapon, especially LMS/TLMS, where everybody gets it when you do, and not just you. Comboing an entire chuck of a team with a single Atomic Fire shot, or OHKOing "without prior notice" (this is bs, you can hear the charge sound very clearly, pay attention to your surroundings) in LMS/TLMS are, IMO, valid outcomes when you take into account how, in LMS/TLMS, you have no way to recover ammo or how easily spottable the player wielding the weapon becomes. Now in DM, you can recover its ammo, which makes the weapon more deadly.











Also, watzup's idea of being taken back a level of charge when hit is a very good idea, IMO. While in full charge, if you get hit at all, you're brought back to mid charge. 50 damage is still a decent firing output for a charge weapon, and not all the pressure of Atomic Fire is lost since, you know, 50 damage is a lot.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Messatsu on April 15, 2016, 08:01:27 PM

Those are some good points.  I definitely agree with most of your thoughts there.  However, I can't say I'm a huge fan of reducing the charge level.  It's certainly much better than losing the charge completely but I think the inconsistency between charge weapons would be a problem.  It'd be weird to have one charge weapon behave differently than the others imo.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Gumballtoid on April 15, 2016, 08:10:08 PM

Quote from: "Messatsu"

My thoughts on Atomic Fire are to go a slightly different direction.

1.) Increase the radius of the largest projectile to match the sprite size.  This will make it less than ideal to use in cramped quarters since the probability of hitting a wall is greater.  Sure it's harder to dodge, but this also means that the players aim must be a bit more precise with their aim.
2.) Decrease damage from 100 to 35.  This projectile is a ripper and thus likely will hit 3 times to still kill the player, but glancing blows will no longer instantly OHKO on touching it.

I really like this direction. It would be extremely powerful, but it wouldn't guarantee an OHKO on someone that just grazes it.

Title: thanks mickle
Post by: Hallan Parva on April 16, 2016, 07:30:51 PM

it would also be a lot easier to survive Atomic Fire if you have Junk Shield :^)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: MusashiAA on April 16, 2016, 08:10:21 PM

Lowering the full charge Atomic Fire shot from 100 to 35 just means you can survive it some times, which kinda increase inconsistency and uncertainty over the effectiveness of the shot, which just makes the weapon less attractive instead of balancing it.

You can argue the same about my suggestion of "losing charge when hit" with upping inconsistency with all other charge weapons, but there has always been inconsistency between charge weapons between every game, with some losing charge when hit and some not losing charge when hit. And besides, it's very easy to tell that losing your charge when hit is the penalty for having access to a OHKO weapon.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Russel on April 16, 2016, 08:52:41 PM

The point of the size increase in addition to the damage reduction is to make it so the player has to hit three times in order to get the kill.

But with a size like that, it's guaranteed to still instakill if it lands at all unless the player is running in the opposite direction of its flight.
It wouldn't really change all that much aside from making the weapon more inconvenient to use in small spaces.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: Dr. Freeman on April 16, 2016, 09:07:01 PM

Personally, I think Atomic Fire's main problem is the unlimited pressure it offers, rather than the fact it's an OHKO ripper. I don't think a size increase + lowering the damage, where it will still OHKO you (grazed shots are spared, that's nice I guess?) fixes the main problem with the weapon.

I do like damage somehow affecting the charge. Either by bringing it down a level or cancelling it completely (it really depends on how much damage we're talking about here). Someone else mentioned making the charge time longer and giving the midcharge some more love as well, and I feel like that would also be an interesting approach, especially if combined with the damage to lower the charge. (Obviously the damage should be more than just a mega buster shot. 30ish damage? Idunno)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: NemZ on April 16, 2016, 11:28:45 PM

What if it started doing little ticks of damage to you if held at full charge for more than a few seconds?  That discourages charging it up out of the way and waiting for someone to stumble into you around a blind corner or the like.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: HeelNavi on April 20, 2016, 03:20:48 PM

If it's so OP, just make it harder to obtain...

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Atomic Fire)
Post by: LlamaHombre on April 24, 2016, 09:46:38 PM

Ok, I think we have enough info to work with from here so I'm moving on to the next weapon. One thing I don't think I mentioned clearly enough is that you all can suggest that for more than one weapon to be looked at a time, even if we're only focusing on one individually. This is especially the case because...

Code: [Select]

Search Snake ---- II
Silver Tomahawk - I
Scorch Wheel ---- I
Noise Crush ----- I
Star Crash ------ I

...we have a four way tie for what weapon's gonna be discussed after Search Snake. So for now let's see what everyone has to offer in regards to possible Search Snake tuning.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Korby on April 24, 2016, 10:44:58 PM

As a quick note, I've put forward a change that Search Snake will be aimable, similar to how it works for snakeman in Classes.
It doesn't shoot out terribly far, but it's something.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Knux on April 25, 2016, 12:44:55 AM

That would most likely greatly help the weapon as being able to aim snakes means they will go up walls faster and be potentially more accurate.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Gumballtoid on April 25, 2016, 02:06:40 AM

That's definitely a start. I've been hoping it would happen eventually.

One thought I had was to give the snakes some kind of homing ability (putting the "search" in "Search Snake"). Obviously that would have its own host of problems, and since Hornet Chaser will have a similar function, that might be kind of stepping on its toes, but it's merely an idea that I've been mulling around.

What sets Search Snake apart for me is the sheer number of snakes in one clip. I think that's something that should be preserved through any changes it sees.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Thunderono on April 25, 2016, 02:21:37 AM

Search Snake's most infamous problem is that its opponent can simply hold the spacebar to render the weapon almost entirely useless.  This isn't a problem seen with most other floorhuggers-- even water wave, a weapon notorious for the same issue, has a long duration to make it more difficult to jump over.  Unfortunately, I can't quite think of a way to fix Search Snake without fundamentally changing the weapon-- the only thing I can think of is a vertical hitbox increase to make it harder to jump over, but then that creates a massive disparity between the sprite size versus the hitbox size, creating an issue similar to Pharaoh Shot's.

I'm not a particular fan of adding homing properties to Search Snake, either.  It wouldn't really fix the issue, anyway-- a player could still just as easily hop over the snake, except now it can circle back around.  The thing moves so slowly that it'd hardly matter in the first pla-

Actually, what if the snake just moved faster?
As it stands, Search Snake is currently slower than your average Mega Buster shot.  With faster snakes, enemies would have less time to react to a barrage, and it may be easier to score a couple of hits.  It would also give it something to stand apart from the likes of Ice Wave and Bubble Lead.

Speaking of floorhuggers, why not talk about Ice Wave?  As it stands, it's currently the best ground-based option available.  If that doesn't work out, I'll default to my earlier suggestion of Silver Tomahawk.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Messatsu on April 25, 2016, 02:28:42 AM

Personally I'd like to see the role of Search Snake change a little bit.  It currently hits pretty hard (28 damage) and has a moderately fast RoF.  The problem I personally have with it is that I find the Rof and damage to create a weapon that generally hits opponents out of luck rather than proper aiming.  While I'm sure it's possible to lure someone into a shot, I've just not had success myself with it.  So my proposal is to swap it to a faster but weaker shot.  At this point we have Bubble Lead as the power for the ground and Water Wave for speed.  For the wall climbers, we have Ice Wave which can deal heavy damage and it's also quite good at forcing a player to move, but we don't have a speed equivalent.  The high ammo capacity also lends itself well to this style of change.

That's just my thought on it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Bikdark on April 25, 2016, 04:04:09 AM

Quote from: "Thunderono"

Search Snake's most infamous problem is that its opponent can simply hold the spacebar to render the weapon almost entirely useless.

Popping in to say that this is a complete lie. Please do not think this.

The snakes don't come slow and one at a time -- people shoot them in massive barrages that sneak up on you and ruin your whole day... or at least that's how it works in CBM. Search Snake only sorta fulfills that fantasy in vanilla. It works, but the problem isn't what you think it is. The lack of control disallows any variance in playstyle (HUGE FUCKING WAVE vs indirect combat, or aiming high vs aiming low, respectively). The set height at which they fly makes them hard to lead into people, making most people put the weapon down for something much simpler like PShot. Allowing the player to aim the snakes lets them use the weapon how they want -- something not necessarily fleshed out in vanilla 8bdm (most weapons do one thing and one thing only).

The only things you should consider touching are aiming (which is already 90% chance of being implemented as I can see), damage (reduce to 15), and RoF (increase considerably). Let players decide what they want to do with the weapon: create big waves and force the enemy to jump right as you use GHold, stack 7 of them for an ohko shot, or do something inbetween. The ability to aim the snakes is an extremely powerful buff to an already criminally underrated weapon. Indirect combat is strong, and 4koing people from god-knows where with a massive barrage of snakes can push the weapon over the edge and turn duels into even bigger campfests.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: King Dumb on April 25, 2016, 04:59:34 AM

Quote

Allowing the player to aim the snakes lets them use the weapon how they want -- something not necessarily fleshed out in vanilla 8bdm (most weapons do one thing and one thing only).

This is an interesting point. I don't really think it's in the interest of the game to 'flesh out' every weapon in this manner... Trade-offs among weapons is a primary balancing factor in every arena shooter, and this is even more important for MM8BDM than most because of the number of weapons (and also because of the underlying philosophy of the Mega Man games themselves). Classes are a different matter, because you're left with one or two weapons to navigate every situation you find yourself.

I think it's pretty wrong to consider Search Snake "criminally underrated" - this is a currently terrible weapon - but I do think that the ability to aim it will be a very powerful buff. I understand there is some conflict of niche going on here but I can see a solid case for S. Snake as the (relatively) close-range cousin of other floor-huggers. I think playtesting with this change applied will be able to tune damage.

Title: I'll probably have to go back and update Lunar Search Snake.
Post by: BiscuitSlash on April 25, 2016, 06:34:20 PM

The problem I've always had with Search Snake is using it as an actual weapon. The snakes are too small and slow to be any good at actually hitting opponents, and they'll often have enough reacting time to avoid pretty much every snake. It's good that the opponent isn't completely helpless, yes, but it's bad that the weapon is rarely helpful for the user.

It's good for areas where the terrain is a bit unhelpful, as the snakes go over that easily and it's harder for the opponents to keep track of and avoid. These areas are rare however, making this a bit of a moot point at the moment.

I remember hearing about giving it a slight homing feature, which I was fond of. Though I prefer the idea of increasing their speed. It would make the weapon much easier to aim with. Maybe also consider what maps have Search Snake and which ones would most benefit from having it. As I said earlier, this weapon seems to work best when using the terrain to its advantage.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Sonnitude on April 26, 2016, 12:16:23 PM

Personally with search snake, my thinking is make it where it can cause some kind of DOT, so when you hit with it, it does more then just the initial impact.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Hallan Parva on April 29, 2016, 04:15:42 PM

Honestly I'd prefer if the snakes moved slower instead of faster. Currently the best thing to do with core Search Snake is to stack up a bunch of 'em like a charging wall of tiny snake-like terror, and watch them climb over terrain to swarm a dude. If they were sped up, they would be easier to jump over since the group of snakes has less effective time spent passing underneath the target. However, if you slow the snakes down, they linger for that much longer, which not only makes them harder to dodge, but also allows the snakes to serve as a sort of poor man's terrain control, helping you lock down foes to land shots with other weapons. Ice Wall already moves really quickly, and is generally a decent weapon even at close range, so making Search Snake into a "pressure" weapon (slowing the projectile, allowing the user to freely aim) would help separate the two even further.

Might not be the change you're looking for, but I'd say it's at least worth testing out.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: NemZ on April 29, 2016, 05:50:56 PM

Maybe change their pathing to include a bit of a sine wave 'wiggle' along the vector rather than just straight?  That plus slowing their forward momentum just a little would make avoiding them significantly more difficult.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on May 01, 2016, 12:21:24 AM

Slowing down the snakes + giving them a wiggly path

seems like something worth considering actually. It's a creative and effective way of making them not so easily avoidable, and would maybe be good for doing traps and whatnot.


For the next weapon discussion, whenever that is, I vote Flash Stopper. Honestly that weapon's pretty garbage for a rare weapon.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Mendez on May 01, 2016, 09:18:28 AM

When I think of Search Snake, I think of two weapons that do a better job in the same situations: Water Wave and Ice Wave. There's been suggestions for slowing down the snakes, but given the current fire rate of the weapon, I feel that would be doing even more harm than good. Unless your opponent follows the Prometheus school of dodging (http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_run_sideways_9163.png), a slow projectile can be easily dodged by just walking to the side. This is especially true for a weapon that can't change its path once it's launched. So with that in mind, I propose changing the projectile to act differently from its wavy kin.
If a weapon is going to be called "Search Snake", it needs to act like a snake that searches for people. With that in mind, I propose letting the weapon home in on a target when it's first launched before zooming on the ground in a single direction. What I basically mean is let the snake turn itself to look for a target, and once it hits the ground, it lunges rather quickly in a single direction, unable to turn or change its trajectory but able to reach its destination in almost no time. What this will do is make aiming Search Snake a bit easier while also making it slightly harder to dodge since moving to the side won't work as easily against a fast projectile. In case you want to argue that a slow projectile is harder to dodge than a fast projectile, how about we play a match where one of us gets Thunder Bolt and the other gets Silver Tomahawk. From my experience in duels and firefights, the faster projectile almost always becomes harder to dodge.

Title: sorry melinda try again
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 01, 2016, 09:38:56 AM

Except your example is flawed, Thunder Bolt is one of the faster projectiles in the game (but let's be nice and call it "medium" speed) and Silver Tomahawk is practically a railgun. No seriously, you can visibly land hits before the sprite actually connects with the target. There's also the issue of the sprite dying on a floor or wall, but the projectile registering a hit regardless... actually I'd like to go over all the problems with Silver Tomahawk, but that's a topic for another time.

An impending wall of death is much different than a projectile moving at average speed. Even current Search Snake moves slower than average. And with your "home once" suggestion, Search Snake completely loses its current niche of terrain control or surprise ambush attacks, and instead becomes an inferior grounded version of the upcoming Hornet Chaser.

Title: It's fine when it's Michael, you make it sound dickish tbh
Post by: Mendez on May 01, 2016, 10:05:21 AM

I do believe my point still stands that faster weapons are harder to dodge than slower weapons, unless you've got an example to prove me wrong. How about Bass Buster vs Mega Buster then to keep my argument reasonable.
Regardless, the fire rate on core search snake right now doesn't allow for the creation of death walls, and a slower projectile speed wouldn't help if the enemy even caught a glimpse of the snakes coming. Remember, the search snakes have smaller hitboxes compared to their superior wavy counterparts. A horizontal wave could work, but either the snakes would have to be fired in bursts or the fire rate would need to be increased so that it's easier to align the snakes in a line.

You people want to turn me into Birdman, don't you?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Stardust on May 01, 2016, 08:15:00 PM

I believe Search Snake wasn't meant to be a weapon you use on frontal duel since it's slow it's predictable, but rather a stage crawling hazard that gets you frags eventually when you cover large areas with it (its damage is rather high for a ranged weapon with that much ammo).
A dizzy/"waving" pattern like if the snake was strafing would be nice imo.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: NemZ on May 02, 2016, 04:40:26 AM

It's not that they move slower, it's that they also have some horizontal ground to cover as well so of course it takes a little longer to make forward progress.  The point of Search Snake should be area denial and indirect harrassment, so if each shot takes up more space for a longer time that means it does the job slightly better.  

If you really want to make it interesting though, slash the ammo count, make it drop three snakes at a time, and add a small random variable to the horizontal movement on each pass so their exact paths are impossible to guess at a distance... sort of like the Charged Bolt spell from Diablo.  Welcome to bullet snake hell!

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Messatsu on May 03, 2016, 03:20:37 PM

I've always found Search Snake to be one of those weapons you just spam in the hopes of getting a lucky frag (See also: Screw Crusher).  From a tactical standpoint I just found it to be a bit annoying to use and annoying to fight against.  From an offense standpoint it moves too slowly to hit anyone reliably and from a defense standpoint they CAN be kinda hard to see and deal quite a bit of damage.  The question I propose is what 'role' should Search Snake play?  As I mentioned in my previous post, I think giving it a role closer to say, Needle Cannon or Water Wave fits the weapon better and matches how it worked in MM3 (It was as fast as the Mega Buster RoF wise) moreso than keeping it in the field of say, Thunder Bolt or Silver Tomahawk.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 03, 2016, 05:11:20 PM

I'd like to see it take on a role similar to Mega Ball where it's less used in direct offensive play and more used for catching someone unawares. As opposed to the slower, more powerful Ice Wave, I'd like to see the snakes get an increase in movement speed, however slight it may be. That coupled with the ability to aim the weapon vertically would make it a force to be reckoned with on maps like MM1ELE or MM2CRA where there's a great emphasis on height variation and the use of ladders.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 04, 2016, 11:08:37 AM

The problem here is that Search Snake is overshadowed in terms of power, speed and "stackness" by every other ground crawling weapon in the game. The only redeeming factor Search Snake has is its large ammo count, four times larger than the rest.

Every other ground crawling weapon is essentially more effective in terms or stacking up projectiles than Search Snake, save for Ice Wave. Every other weapon deals more damage per full hit than Search Snake, excluding Ice Wave's ability to go through enemies. Ice Wave, Water Wave and Wind Storm (yeah, let's not forget about that one) are harder to jump over than Search Snake. And for all intents and purposes, all ground crawling weapons that instantly go down OR don't stick to vertical walls are by default faster and more versatile than Search Snake, which is to say all except Ice Wave.

The problems with Search Snake don't come from its design, but from its underperformance in comparison to others of its kin, where it even becomes unfair. I'd personally either increase its rate of fire/make it aimable to make the counterplay of jumping less effective, or make Search Snake vertical climbing way faster than what it is now. (I would like to say making the copy weapon aimable would force the Snakeman class to be changed, but core shouldn't bother about that)

A homing/leaping ground crawling projectile sounds like a very interesting idea, but then comes the question: should all Search Snake projectiles be like that or just some of them, and how do you control when you fire leaping ones and when you're not? Would it be like Axl's "blue shot", where it comes out after firing a set number of projectiles? Honestly, I'd rather keep Search Snake's design the way it is instead of adding something new, as its main problem is its underperformance rather than a flaw of its design and as such it should only require some tuning instead of a new mechanic added to it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Ceridran on May 04, 2016, 05:25:35 PM

my idea is that the first search snake strike signals all other existing search snakes that originate from the same user to their new target. you could possibly make them leap at the target once they get close enough, too, but that may be unnecessary.

edit: you'd probably have to make the first snake really hard to hit with and speed up the next ones when they're on the hunt

you create a swarm weapon with homing abilities that first have to be unlocked through some means. power gating!

.. that, or it only overloads the weapon.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: fortegigasgospel on May 04, 2016, 07:10:24 PM

How do we convey any none generic homing ability or leaping ability to players though? We have been saying that the weapons should be able to be picked up and what they do is obvious when fired. I've gotta agree with the high RoF, faster vertical movement, stance. It makes them get to the target sooner, a higher rate of fire allows you to get that large coverage going on. But don't lower the speed of the projectile just to make it "stay under the target longer" they can't jump all your snakes if you have a steady stream of them coming, also take into account it's damage and ammo, it hits hard and has some of the most ammo in 8bdm, with enough snakes to make evading them all impossible you are bound to get a kill or 2/3/4 with it before you run out of ammo. Also Search Snake is harder to dodge when you are running from it due to traveling the same direction (allowing it to stay under those jumpers longer there) making it a good chasing weapon in opposition of Boomeranging weapons being effective against chasers.
Edit: Let us not forget Search Snake barely moves faster then the player also, and you move just as fast as it if you are diagonal running, so slowing it down makes it the speed of a player and out-runnable diagonal running, so it become useless in a chase if it is slower.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Ceridran on May 04, 2016, 08:21:06 PM

add status icons somewhere in the user interface, raise the intensity with a little flash or a satisfying sound that just screams "gotcha bitch", give the snakes a ghost trail, change their color, etc. you have loads of options to pick, mix and match.

super shoddy sketch. snake should've had a lot more smears to show that it's quickly whipping around.
(http://i.imgur.com/XFzE4y7.png)

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Korby on May 05, 2016, 01:55:01 AM

I find it unlikely that we'll be adding any sort of complex mechanic to Search Snake.
The current strategy of creating a long beam of snakes in the hope for a kill has arisen only because the weapon is so garbage right now. If we made the weapon stronger in some capacity (e.g. homing or fire rate) and also kept the ability to create a giant pile of death that you pretty much can't see coming, things would get out of hand very quickly; not to mention the idea of a very slow moving, homing death ball is going to be occupied by Hornet Chaser in this update. The idea of pushing it towards area denial by giving it a sine wave or something along those lines would be a fairly solid one were we not introducing Plug Ball in this very update, a weapon designed to tell your opponent that they cannot walk in an area.

I think the healthiest direction to go considering aiming was added would be to increase firing rate to differentiate it from Ice Wave, increase firing speed to make it a more bearable weapon, increase its speed to make it a little more dangerous and to remove the ability to make an enormous pile of snakes, and decrease its damage slightly so that it doesn't become overpowering.
If you'd like to try out my suggestions, load this wad and grab Search Snake.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104 ... nakeEX.wad (https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/104072695/SearchSnakeEX.wad)
It doesn't really use the cleanest way to replace things but it doesn't really need to to serve its purpose.
Changed stats:
--Speed 18 > 27
--Damage 28 > 24 [4 hit > 5 hit]
--Firing Rate 14 Tics in between shots > 11 Tics in between shots
--Includes Aim Snakes

In the end, if you're sad about Search Snake losing its death beam powers, you can take solace in knowing that Bubble Lead moves just as fast as Search Snake used to and does more damage.
This is more okay than Search Snake doing it because it can't climb walls.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on May 05, 2016, 10:29:01 AM

Please don't forget to consider which maps have and will have search snake. It's a weapon that's good at taking advantage of terrain and opponents up on high cliffs, and works better in these situations than usual head-to-head fighting.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 05, 2016, 12:31:22 PM

I really like those changes. It's definitely along the lines I was looking for.

Would also like to see discussion of Pharaoh Shot and Silver Tomahawk.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 05, 2016, 12:52:50 PM

I'm kinda iffy on how your changed Search Snake projectile is as fast as a Mega Buster bullet, maybe make it just very slightly slower, somwehre between 20 and 25?. The rate of fire is fine, maybe just slightly slower than what I would expect. Aimable snakes seem too versatile of an idea for the base weapon IMO. The damage tradeoff is fine by me.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Watzup7856 on May 05, 2016, 03:58:45 PM

Really like the changes, feels like I have control over them and does a decent amount of damage

I'd like to see another weapon being discussed for either Pharaoh Shot or Pizza Cutters Silver Tomahawk

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Korby on May 05, 2016, 08:29:16 PM

As a quick note because I forgot to mention it in my post, I don't think discussing Silver Tomahawk is the best idea because the main problem with it is its ungodly speed. Reducing that would drastically reduce its power.

I'd rather us talk about Leaf Shield so that we can get a clearer idea of where to head with its rework.
Although Pharaoh Shot wouldn't be a terrible idea either as we're still split on exactly what to do to it.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Max on May 05, 2016, 09:19:36 PM

make it repel people instead of projectiles

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: Ceridran on May 06, 2016, 02:45:44 AM

sorry about that

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Search Snake)
Post by: LlamaHombre on May 07, 2016, 10:01:14 PM

Alright, so I think that's about all we're gonna get out of Search Snake. Thanks everyone, now let's move on to our next topic.

Code: [Select]

Pharaoh Shot ---- IIII (Technically should've had 1 tally last time, my b)
Silver Tomahawk - III
Leaf Shield ----- I
Flash Stopper --- I
Scorch Wheel ---- I
Noise Crush ----- I
Star Crash ------ I

Overwhelming majority goes to Pharaoh Shot. Let's make some noise.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Caprice on May 07, 2016, 10:19:04 PM

If I were to go about changing Pharaoh Shot, I'd make its hitbox smaller, make it do most of its damage based on direct hits like most projectiles, and severely tone down the explosion damage (where you'd take 15-20 damage tops if you were in the middle of the radius, as an example). There's really not that much needed to be said, it's just too big and reliable compared to its damage output.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Russel on May 07, 2016, 10:37:20 PM

I remember a thought someone had some time ago- quick charge, relatively fast projectile, but deals around 30-45 damage.
Retention of the explosion is up for debate, but I personally liked the direction this seemed to aim.

Regardless of what changes on it, I do feel it should still be powerful due to its classification as a Power weapon in addition to its stringent placement on some maps in order to avoid it being too out of reach for something somewhat weak.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 07, 2016, 10:49:05 PM

The big thing this weapon has over other charge weapons is that its charge is completely silent. Because of that, I think that while it should be powerful, it should be weaker than other such weapons by some margin. As it stands, it charges relatively fast, so if the explosion were taken out and the projectile did around 30-40 damage as Lego said, I think it would fill a good niche.

Also its other charge levels ought to have some merit. I like the idea of being able to peg dudes with little fireballs after the sun softens them up.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Messatsu on May 07, 2016, 11:28:57 PM

The explosion was added because the weapon was terrible before this change.  Here's some other items to keep in mind.
1.) Hard Knuckle and Drill Bomb are also both power weapons.  Since Pharaoh Shot is also a power weapon, it should be in the same relative strength level of weapons like this.
2.) The weapon should be as unique as possible compared to other weapons within the category.  Off the top of my head, I think this is the only weapon that explodes and charges.
3.) Accuracy.  While some liberties are obviously being taken.  It should always FEEL like Pharaoh Shot.  Too fast a charge and it starts to deviate a bit too much.  It was a fairly strong weapon in MM4 and I believe this should be maintained as much as possible here.  
4.) Think outside the box.  Can other ideas by applied to the main weapon other than what it currently does. (Think about what mods do etc.  Not required, just something to think about)

Lastly, the main thing to be considered is what makes the weapon FUN to use.  What change would you make to it so that you WANT to use the weapon.  Whether it's a specific scenario or in general, every weapon should have a practical use to it.  

Personally, I don't mind the explosion, but perhaps the damage could be tweaked a little bit.  Comparing it to Drill Bomb, the few ideas that spring to mind offhand are
1.) Add a bonus to hitting a player directly.  Maybe make the explosion bigger and do full damage to everyone within range.  Reward direct hits.
2.) Change the miss explosion to be projectile based (Think Freeze Cracker, but short range) So that it's not omni directional.
3.) Increase ammo consumption relative to the other changes applied.

It's a power weapon and it charges, so imo it should hit a little harder than Drill Bomb and Ballade Cracker.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Bikdark on May 08, 2016, 12:06:38 AM

I only think the explosion range needs to be shown for the weapon to be better. A lot of the power lies in its ambiguity. On death, spawn a MUCH larger sfx of PShot growing in size where the explosion is. Refer to Muzaru's CBM Bandaid patch for what I mean.

edit: mess has an excellent point for rewarding direct shots. reducing the overall damage + AoE for indirect hits, but increasing dmg + AoE + making AoE have consistent damage for direct hits.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Russel on May 08, 2016, 01:52:35 AM

bandaid doesn't have an explosion effect for pharaoh shot what are you talking about

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Bikdark on May 08, 2016, 02:18:13 AM

nvm im fucking stupid LOL I FORGOT WE HAVENT RELEASED THAT YET

ASK MUZ ABOUT IT LOL

EDIT: OK GO LOOK AT MPBX INSTEAD

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: fortegigasgospel on May 08, 2016, 06:45:56 AM

Have to agree with Bik here, while I'm not one for using Pharaoh Shot and not too often I see it being used that sounds like a great way to handle the weapon (obviously an effect to show the explosion also since it is not obvious it does that). It allows for the weapon to be stronger then the other explosive power weapons as Mess wants since it's full power requires a direct hit while the other two might be easier to hit with by relying on the explosion (at least I tend to do that) while keeping the same amount of damage either way.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 08, 2016, 07:44:08 AM

I still think a silent charging 65 damage explosion on a relatively fast charge time is stupid, no matter how you slice it


Hard Knuckle requires a direct hit, as does Noise Crush (which DOES make a charge sound)
Drill Bomb travels slower and is at least a three-hit kill under normal circumstances

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 08, 2016, 02:24:36 PM

I have to agree with Smashbro here, Pharaoh Shot is a silent charge weapon solely because it also was in MM4, its only an advantage that has very little drawback to it. Every charge weapon makes a lot of noise while charging (which I assume is one of its drawbacks), except Tengu Slash, which is a melee weapon, and Pharaoh Shot. Also, didn't we just have a talk about charge weapons that don't force enough drawbacks onto the player for holding down a charge forever?

A silent charge weapon that deals 65 damage at point blank that can still deal explosion damage if missed feels wrong IMO. Pharaoh Shot as it is is a very solid weapon, one that clearly outclasses most other weapons of its same kin, but if we're to keep its full power for design purposes:

-That 3HKO mid charge shot needs to go, too short of a charge time to already get 34-49 damage. You don't even need two full charge shots to kill a player: just finish him off with the mid charge shot.

-That silent charge needs to be awfully reconsidered as part of its design (I've got unused Pharaoh Shot charging and alternate firing SFX if the need ever arises  ;) ).

-And right off the heels of that previous bullet point, the same principle discussed for Atomic Fire charging needs to be considered for this one weapon as well: players can hold the charge forever, with even less penalties to it than Atomic Fire.

-As a suggestion, please consider adding a way to efficiently spam the small Pharaoh Shot projectile.

-And as another suggestion, please add to Pharaoh Shot's ammo bar the same thing Scorch Wheel's has: a flashing ammo bar layered on top of the regular one, that rises up to indicate what level of charge you have. Instead of it slowly rising up like CBM's Pharaoh Man, it should instantly fill midbar when it reaches mid charge point, then fill up completely when it reaches full charge. Out of all the charge weapons, Pharaoh Shot is the most offensive-centered one, and as such this kind of information is critical for the player to know.






EDIT: Oh, and Astro Crush's explosion graphic to the actual hidden explosion or something along those lines, nothing too flashy, nothing too noisy.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 08, 2016, 02:43:06 PM

On that subject it might be cool to have hud indicators of charge levels for every weapon in such a way, but that's for another discussion.

Pharaoh Shot's silent charge is what makes it unique, in my opinion, and definitely sets it apart from the likes of Atomic Fire or any buster upgrade. I think it should be designed around having that unique aspect. For a weapon that charges silently, I think the explosion is unnecessary, particularly because it's ambiguous (that being there's no visual indicator, and it never actually exploded in MM4) and because it steps on the toes of things like Drill Bomb, another exploding power weapon of the same game.

If we're going to talk about rewarding the player for landing direct shots, the reward ought to be dealing damage to begin with. In contrast to Drill Bomb, which is slower but does have the ability to strike several targets at once (and detonate on a whim, mind you), this weapon would be better left for picking off single opponents.

On the subject of an explosion visual, I think it goes back to the identity aspect that Mess was talking about. It should still feel like Pharaoh Shot. It never did explode in MM4, it just kept on going if it killed a weak enemy, oftentimes mowing down hordes of them if they were close enough together -- actually, there's an idea: suppose the projectile continued to travel if it killed its target? If it finishes off a dude, it could keep going and peg the dude behind him.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 08, 2016, 03:03:54 PM

Plant Barrier never healed you in MM6, Atomic Fire was not aimable in MM2, and so on and so on: certain changes are needed to better accommodate the FPS gameplay or to make the weapon more interesting, which is why the (weak) hidden explosion, while mostly unneeded for its basic functionality, adds a layer to the weapon's usefulness without treading into Drill Bomb's explosive nature.

The subject of identity...is something that shouldn't be taken literally for the purpose of our designing convenience. And besides, MM8BDM's Pharaoh Shot feels like MM4's Pharaoh Shot, because MM4's Pharaoh Shot was just an aimable charge buster with its projectile sticking out before firing, which the 8BDM counterpart already portrays in both look and function. Anything else that is added to the 8BDM counterpart, however small it is, has been an addendum that IMO: a) doesn't strip the weapon of its identity, b) exists to liven up the weapon, and c) exists to better function in a multiplayer FPS plane.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: CutmanMike on May 08, 2016, 04:02:28 PM

Having it automatically fire after holding it for a second or two seems reasonable.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Geno on May 08, 2016, 04:12:45 PM

Also, one thing

If the explosion stays, I'll personally draw graphics for it so that it no longer stays "invisible"

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 08, 2016, 04:16:00 PM

Force shot release is counterproductive for offensive medium range fighting, which is what Pharaoh Shot seems to be most used in, and for charge weapons in general IMO. You want to keep your shot with you for the right time to fire it and deal the direct damage: adding a too short time constrain or any other penalty without something to justify it like Atomic Fire's killer shot, in the exclusive case of Pharaoh Shot, is a bad idea.

If a time limit is used as Pharaoh Shot's charge holding penalty, then maybe a larger span like 6 or 10 seconds should be more fitting to an offensive weapon like it, and for the giant compressed heat ball to dissipate. I wouldn't advise it, though: it feels like an awful idea in execution.

EDIT: For an original explosion graphic, may I suggest taking inspiration from Pharaoh Man's Pharaoh Wave? I imagine Pharaoh Shot's "explosion" to mostly be the result of the shot shortly bursting into a mini heat wave: nothing too flashy, nothing too big, nothing too noisy.

Title: i want those asteroids to be decoration on MM5STA
Post by: Geno on May 08, 2016, 04:23:06 PM

I was mostly intending P.Shot's explosion to look like the ones from those asteroids from MM5
(http://cutstuff.net/molly/DBBKUP/MM8BDM/starmanasteroids.png)
(which i had to rip myself because nobody ripped them before)

Where the projectile visibly gets "torn apart" by the explosion
(I'll also try to make the explosion the size of the actual damaging radius, however big that is)

Title: me too
Post by: MusashiAA on May 08, 2016, 04:29:27 PM

Quote from: "Geno"

I was mostly intending P.Shot's explosion to look like the ones from those asteroids from MM5
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5237238/MM8BDM/starmanasteroids.png)
(which i had to rip myself because nobody ripped them before)

Where the projectile visibly gets "torn apart" by the explosion
(I'll also try to make the explosion the size of the actual damaging radius, however big that is)

That looks ok, might be a bit too big? The explosion radius is not as big as Drill Bomb's, anyways.



















and if it is, it shouldn't be.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Korby on May 08, 2016, 05:59:28 PM

Pharaoh Shot's explosion radius has a 128 unit radius. Drill Bomb has a 96 unit radius.
Its damage is also entirely in the explosion, so I wouldn't exactly label it as "weak."

Personally, I like Gumball's idea of making it not explosive and having it pass through slain players. Perhaps its damage could increase as well, because the likelihood of actually hitting another guy with that projectile is very little.
I'm also okay with just reducing the damage slightly and nerfing the radius by a fair amount.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: MusashiAA on May 08, 2016, 06:31:03 PM

That's not right. The idea of Pharaoh Shot only dealing a lot of damage on direct hits, while keeping a small explosion only if it misses and hits anything but a player should be the way to go. Said explosion should not overpower Drill Bomb's in any way.

If we go the non-explosive way, Gumball's idea is a more logical conclusion: make it pass through killed enemies instead (for whatever that's worth >:^/).

If we go the explosive way, reduce the radius of the explosion, add a small graphic to it, and nerf either mid charge shot to 4HKO and the full charge shot to 60. Any other design choice, like silent charge or no charge shot spam is up to you.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 08, 2016, 06:38:26 PM

As part of the identity argument I brought up earlier, I'm not big on the idea of creating new sprites to accommodate the explosion. If the explosion radius is reduced to not be larger than the resident explosive weapon, it most likely won't need them anyway.

That aside, I largely agree with the sentiments above.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: NemZ on May 08, 2016, 07:45:59 PM

Is there a way to make it rip  but only hit once per target?  
No charge = less damage, small, no rip
Mid charge = full damage, small, no rip
full charge = full damage, large, psedo-rips, and deals damage on contact (but lose the charge in the process.)

As for balancing the silent quick charge and melee option, lose the charge if damaged.

I don't think the explosion is worth keeping.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on May 10, 2016, 02:47:07 PM

Quote from: "Korby"

Pharaoh Shot's explosion radius has a 128 unit radius.

What.

Okay seriously, that's too much. I don't mind the idea of an AoE effect for this weapon, however:
-128 radius sounds too high, especially compared to Drill Bomb.
-There's no clear indicator that it explodes. This causes confusion to unaware players when they take damage from a near miss, and when they take damage after blocking the attack with Proto Shield. This is an example of bad game design.

The above needs to be fixed up. I've also never liked how the fully charged shot overshadows the uncharged and mid-charged shot. Not certain on how to go about this. Maybe speed up the less charged shots?

Quote from: "MusashiAA"

If a time limit is used as Pharaoh Shot's charge holding penalty, then maybe a larger span like 6 or 10 seconds should be more fitting to an offensive weapon like it, and for the giant compressed heat ball to dissipate. I wouldn't advise it, though: it feels like an awful idea in execution.

I actually kinda like the idea of the projectile being weaker if held up for too long. Similar to what the Huntsman did in Team Fortress 2, where if at the ready for too long it looses accuracy and critical hit chance, a fully charged Pharaoh shot could be slightly less powerful (~10 damage less) and lose its explosion effect. Of course, clear indicators would need to be in place. This would still let players hold a fully charged shot, but discourage them from always having it at the ready.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Bikdark on May 11, 2016, 11:47:22 PM

Quote from: "BiscuitSlash"

Quote from: "Korby"

Pharaoh Shot's explosion radius has a 128 unit radius.

What.

Okay seriously, that's too much. I don't mind the idea of an AoE effect for this weapon, however:
-128 radius sounds too high, especially compared to Drill Bomb.
-There's no clear indicator that it explodes. This causes confusion to unaware players when they take damage from a near miss, and when they take damage after blocking the attack with Proto Shield. This is an example of bad game design.

The above needs to be fixed up. I've also never liked how the fully charged shot overshadows the uncharged and mid-charged shot. Not certain on how to go about this. Maybe speed up the less charged shots?

128 radius is NOT too high lol idk what you're talking about. I think your opinion of the explosion range will be changed once you start to play with explosion fx on. It's NOT going to be a problem with a couple other fixes in place, and by decreasing the range you're really just making the weapon less fun/unique.

Protoshield won't block explosions -- this is something the player will learn very quickly. It's not bad game design, just a little miscommunicated for the first 10 seconds it happens.

The weapon isn't supposed to be used actively in terms of low/mid charge, nor should the focus of the weapon be divided up like that. There's enough strength in tossing out a mid-charge shot when the opponent is expecting a big charge in .6 seconds, and iirc the small shots already do 12, no?

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Pharaoh Shot)
Post by: Orange juice :l on May 11, 2016, 11:58:48 PM

Bear in mind a huge amount of PShot's strength comes from jumping and chucking downwards to ensure something hits. Of course, doing something as drastic as gluing the users' feet to the ground while charged wouldn't be a very good idea, but it's something to keep in mind while balancing the weapon. Perhaps consider walls versus floors?

Title: Still not sure how I feel about the 128 radius.
Post by: BiscuitSlash on May 12, 2016, 10:09:24 AM

Quote from: "Bikdark"

Protoshield won't block explosions -- this is something the player will learn very quickly. It's not bad game design, just a little miscommunicated for the first 10 seconds it happens.

It makes sense for the shield to not block explosions. The bad game design that I'm mentioning is the fact that the lack of explosion indicator (no effects or MM4 version exploding) causes confusion for those who try to block the attack.

It's similar to other games where you try to block an attack that looks blockable, only to fail at it. You feel confused, and took damage due to something that doesn't feel like your fault.

Though this issue is probably going to get fixed up anyway at the moment.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Korby on June 08, 2016, 12:23:06 AM

It's been a while.
Let's talk about Leaf Shield, shall we?

For a long time this weapon has been a problem and promised a rework, but it's never come.
I figure it's a good idea to get public opinion on what to do with it, as we're currently in a rut trying to get something good out.

Talk about potential reworks, what you think's wrong with the weapon, and anything else you can think about.
Speaking of potential reworks, here's what we're currently testing.

-Leaf Shield can now reflect every weapon in the game except fire weapons and the Mega Buster.
-Ammo is constantly draining from the weapon as you keep it up.
-Your movement speed is reduced during Leaf Shield.
-You can still die to environmental hazards as usual.

Originally we tried an iteration which didn't let you move at all during it, and increasing the projectile damage to make approaching the player to get spawn projectiles inside of them more dangerous.
This proved to be unfun for both players; it felt bad to be locked in place and it felt bad to get one shot by a Leaf Shield projectile because you looked at it funny.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Bikdark on June 08, 2016, 02:05:39 AM

Currently the most glaring problems with leaf shield are duration, and maps themselves.

  -Don't limit counters to fire weapons only, because that severely cuts what you can actually put in the map to counter leaf shield, resulting in some unfitting weapon choices. In a perfect world, maps would only have 8 unique weapons in them, and ideally 2 of them would pierce leaf shield. However, these piercing weapons should not always necessarily be the "main" weapons of the map. If metal blade is the most viable weapon on the map, leaf shield would not be a good choice to put in the map because it would be useless. On the other hand, if metal blade wasn't the most effective weapon on the map (yeah right lol) you could get away with putting in leaf over say, skull barrier.

  -simply have it consume ammo over time like skull barrier, or treat it like mirror buster and give it "charges"

  -remove the throw. I understand the throw is "canon", and a certain jelly-obsessed britannian would be very upset over its removal, but the weapon is already strong as an offensive approach for melee followup, and keeping the silly shield throw only wastes the power budget. Unless you change the throw to a reasonable level and it can be properly be used in combination with melee weapons, it's best to just get rid of it.

  -I wouldn't recommend reducing speed as it's being used, because as Korby mentioned, the player using leaf shield felt bad because they couldn't move. Similarly, the player will not feel good for using leaf shield because they're slowed, even if they ARE blocking damage.

  -remember that leaf shield should be a "stat change" of skull barrier (unless you decide to rework it). Make sure it has a similar playstyle, but give it a few quirks to give map makers options regarding how they want their map to play.

ALTERNATIVELY

-rework the fuckin' thing a little. Instead of making it a skull barrier alternative, make it a mirror buster alternative. Player puts it on, and for the next 2 seconds they have an hp buffer that grants them invulnerability for .5 seconds after being hit. It would deflect bullets back at attackers, and offer players an approach for melee weapons, but at the same time discouraging stalling and running, as it only gives the user a small burst of invulnerability. It also becomes a high skillcap weapon, creating situations where players could create binds that immediately use it, almost like a "guard" button.

-or hell, just make it deflect all projectiles.

tl;dr: keep current piercing scheme but ensure wealth of niche counters, possibly add in projectile deflection (genji style), do not limit movement, remove infinite ammo

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: MusashiAA on June 08, 2016, 02:48:46 AM

To begin thinking up Leaf Shield again, we have to first talk about the kind of game it's on, and the goals the player wants to achieve in them:

First and foremost, your primary goal is to rack up frags, that is, to kill the most enemies. If you don't kill, you don't rack up frags, and you won't win the game of deathmatch. You win by, well, using the weapons given to you by the game, so it is expected that a vast mayority of the weapons in this game were design to kill players in the most efficient ways possible, or that the maps give you weapons needed to kill enemies in the most efficient ways possible within the confines of itself.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The next logical goal is, of course, don't let other people score frags, that is, either by stealing their kills or not letting them kill you. If you don't get killed or let others kill people, you won't lose since you won't let others win, but you won't win either if you don't focus on the primary goal. Given that deathmatch is pretty much a game of free for all, using weapons to keep enemies from killing other enemies is not expected...but protecting yourself from getting killed IS expected, and rewarded if you juggle the accomplishment of both goals.

Weapons that are designed to further this secondary goal are not really needed, as proficient enough offensive is much more effective as defense, which is expected as the vast mayority of weapons designed for the game are offensive rather than defensive, but they are nonetheless designed to give players options on mantaining themselves alive, and thus letting them accomplish the secondary goal. This should not mean that the game designers encourage players to not further the primary goal of the game, both towards themselves and towards enemies by use of stalling tactics, which effectively make both parties never win, and never progress the game.

With this in mind, weapons that are designed to further this secondary goal of "don't get killed" should do so without hampering the general progression of matches for other players, nor encouraging players to focus entirely on said goal and forget the primary goal of the game.

------------------------------------------------------------------

The way Leaf Shield currently is in MM8BDM v4c, it allows for stalling strategies as it stays up for as long as the user wants it to be, with no movement drawbacks. To solve this, Leaf Shield was made an imperfect shield: it cannot block not only a select number of special weapons, but the most basic projectiles of them all, Megabuster shots, of which all players have by default AND can pick up more proficient forms of, Bass Buster and Proto Buster, and have with an infinite amount of ammo. The current form of Leaf Shield has, thus, its drawbacks: you are vulnerable to the only constant factor in every player's inventory, and you are not scoring frags while it is up.

While you're busy trying to mantain your shield's ammo as filled up as possible and block people's projectiles, you are not scoring frags, and you might not even be healing yourself if you're being chased down by someone: you're already not winning. Further adding more penalties to this through movement limitations makes the weapon itself not enjoyable or useful for avoiding being killed. I'd simply suggest disallowing users to pick up anything while the shield is active: this mimics MM2's Leaf Shield, where in order to pick up enemy drops, you had to move and lose the shield. I would also suggest making its ammo usage and refilling more tight: this is a shield that deflects most projectiles in the game and allows full movement speed while at it. Another approach is to simply go the CBM way: make the shield have a timer, just like other shields in the game.

EDIT: If you decide to make Leaf Shield a more offensive weapon to justify a tradeoff for its defensive abilities, I'd go with something silly like CBM Woodman's Leaf Rain, just heavily toned down...the thing is, making Leaf Shield offensive deviates it from its identity. Different game incarnations of Leaf Shield gave it a more fleshed out offensive aspect: each leaf acts as an individual projectile, and enemies that don't die in one hit by it will be hit as many times as there are leaves rotating in the shield. Perhaps following this path might be more advisable, as it is unarguably part of Leaf Shield's identity as a weapon.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Russel on June 08, 2016, 03:07:13 AM

I think Bikdark's thing about it getting hit by projectiles would be pretty swag
just take a hit from any angle and fire a projectile out in the direction you're facing, but have it only last a short period and have a bit of a cooldown associated with it... or have the thing stop altogether after it gets hit once.

Lasts a short period of time.
Self-rooting optional.
When hit, shoot projectile, or projectiles forward.
Power scaling could be clusters of projectiles or just straight power scaling [like Mirror Buster], or it could not exist at all.
Shield dying after the hit optional, getting hit could reduce the shield's duration charge.
Shield could protect the hit or hits. Again, optional.

idunno. Just posting my thoughts.
Genji-style reflecting doesn't seem to exist in this engine natively tho
I mean there's probably a way to do it but it would be a pain in the ass to do so in the scheme I pictured.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on June 08, 2016, 10:56:25 AM

Gotta be honest, I have no feedback or suggestions for current Leaf Shield. I've never had a problem with the weapon, and it's always seemed like one of the better shield weapons in both uniqueness and usability.

Just throwin' this out there. It's odd that this one is being considered as opposed to certain other weapons.

Though I will say that it's worth checking up on what weapons are in the maps that have Leaf Shield. That's a key part of what can make the weapon balanced or not.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: CutmanMike on June 08, 2016, 02:39:24 PM

Quote from: "Lego"

Genji-style reflecting doesn't seem to exist in this engine natively tho.

The only way to do it would be pain states. Either the player or some dummy actor spawned by leaf shield would have to take damage and enter a pain state based on the projectile's damage type that then makes the player fire a projectile (or the latter way give the player a CustomInventory that makes him call A_FireCustomMissile...). You would have to do this for every projectile damage type though and it wouldn't support custom weapons from other mods. Definitely not worth it unless it can be coded in a nicer way. ZDoom has added some new reflection flags (http://zdoom.org/wiki/actor_flags#Defenses) but they aren't in Zandronum yet.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Korby on June 14, 2016, 08:49:00 PM

Well, no one's posted in six days. Figured I'd post my idea for it.

You'd throw up Leaf Shield and it would "block" one hit. I put that in quotes because it doesn't actually prevent any damage; However, after taking damage, you heal equal to a percentage of the damage you took. This way, you can still kill someone who has Leaf Shield up, but if you don't think you can finish them off with your next shot, it could be better to switch to your buster or some other weapon to pop it.

Some variations include the health gradually restoring like Plant Barrier so it's a little more fair, healing twice as much damage as you took so that you end up with a net gain, and healing an amount equal to how much you took so that it'll effectively nullify the attack assuming your opponent doesn't shoot you again.

I'd probably change the properties of the projectile if we went with this because the effect is fairly strong.

EDIT: I just noticed that I didn't say how long the shield would stay up. I'd play around with how it felt but it'd probably have a timer so you can't just leave it up forever. Maybe it'd drain ammo while it's up like Star Crash.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on June 14, 2016, 10:20:00 PM

Quote from: "Korby"

You'd throw up Leaf Shield and it would "block" one hit. I put that in quotes because it doesn't actually prevent any damage; However, after taking damage, you heal equal to a percentage of the damage you took. This way, you can still kill someone who has Leaf Shield up, but if you don't think you can finish them off with your next shot, it could be better to switch to your buster or some other weapon to pop it.

At first this sounded similar to Plantman.EXE's Leaf Shield, where the next attack done to him would actually heal him instead of damage him. The healing being the same as how much damage it would have done if the Leaf Shield wasn't up.

Seems like a good idea to play around with but it also seems a bit too far fetched for what classic Megaman had.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Dr. Freeman on June 15, 2016, 12:16:23 AM

The healing thing sounds fascinating, but I definitely wouldn't make it heal double the damage you take. That sounds like it has the potential to be kinda busted. But some percentile that's probably less than 100 sounds interesting.

My only concern is that with it popping after one shot, its weaknesses would basically be the same as Skull Barrier, which is anything that shoots quickly. Like power weapons in theory would be the way to get the kill, but if you miscalculate the enemy's health, then they're just tanking through it while rapid fires would destroy the shield in theory.

That and this offers some weird thing where both nature based shields are healing somehow. I don't think that's a good or a bad thing, just kinda interesting.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Gumballtoid on June 15, 2016, 12:40:17 AM

I'm not big on Korby's suggestions just because they sound needlessly complicated.

I think the basis of what we have currently is well enough, but it needs some fine tuning:

• It should have Mirror Buster / Scorch Wheel / Oil Slider stamina to prevent limitless shield use
• Weapons that should pierce it include buster weapons, fire, blades, and needles
• Remove weapon reflection entirely and simply negate all damage from weapons that can't pierce it -- this is partly to prevent the infinitely-tall reflection hitbox


My other idea was some form of armor, similar to what Junk Shield has going on. On the plus side, throwing it would actually be a viable attack. On the other hand, it wouldn't deal hugging damage and it would have more counters.

I don't know, I'm just spitballing.

[8:35:08 PM] LlamaHombre: fuck shield weapons

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: fortegigasgospel on June 15, 2016, 12:42:50 AM

Hm, what if it acted like Bide from Pokemon? While it is active damage you take is transferred into power for the throw. It would only be up for a set amount of time like Mirror Shield and work from all directions, but doesn't actually protect you from damage, and you can throw it early to get it out before you die and lose all the stored power.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Russel on June 15, 2016, 12:48:34 AM

Was talking stuff over Skype, here's another idea we came up with:

- No longer blasts projectiles away.
- Using Leaf Shield doesn't cost ammo immediately.
- Ammo drains while active.
- While the shield is up, the weapon's ammo becomes an extension to your health.
- You cannot pick up items while active.
- Environmental hazards will still kill you.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Mendez on June 15, 2016, 04:12:02 AM

I think FGG is really onto something with his "bide" idea because it helps distinguish Leaf Shield from most other shield weapons while also introducing an arguably fun risk/reward minigame for players to think about. For players using leaf shield, they have to consider how much damage they're willing to take before dishing out the pain in return. Just the same, enemies have to consider whether or not they can kill the player before the player gets a chance to dish damage back. I would honestly beg the dev team to at least create a prototype of FGG's idea and play around with it before throwing the idea away because it's honestly better than just turning it into a restrictive and uninteractive shield. Honestly, the current ideas being used on Leaf Shield make it sound like it's just a stall weapon and nothing more, especially when the user can't pick up items and has to deal with ammo constraints. If I wanted an extension of my health bar, you know what I'd get? Plant Barrier. At least Plant Barrier lets you continue to pick up items while you're using it.
Edit 3: Probably my last one, but I just wanted to note that there's also Junk Shield for mitigating damage, so if we want to go in the direction of damage reduction with Leaf Shield, then we also have to consider how Junk Shield can maintain a distinct identity

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: MusashiAA on June 15, 2016, 04:48:34 AM

At this point of the discussion, what you guys want is a different weapon altogether instead of redesigning "Leaf Shield". So there's no point in me coming back to my old argument of tuning down the current Leaf Shield. Counter attacks, healing, revenge damage, reskinning Junk Shield...

I'm stll on the side of tuning down Leaf Shield instead of coming up with a triple slam jam and hat trick silly gimmick to make Leaf Shield "interesting" and "not broken".

Also

Quote from: "Gumballtoid"

[8:35:08 PM] LlamaHombre: fuck shield weapons

I could go on in length about how I think this game should not be making shield weapons but instead shields, but that probably won't lead anywhere as I'm confident the mayority, if not the entire team, would be against my conception.

Title: Musashi posted just before I did, too lazy to edit
Post by: Hallan Parva on June 15, 2016, 04:53:25 AM

[8:35:49 PM] Korby: one of my original ideas for leaf shield was

-locked in place
-constantly sucking people in
-RADIUS DAMAAAAAAAGE

[8:36:05 PM] Gumballtoid: L O L
[8:36:09 PM] Freeman: so black hole bomb
[8:36:13 PM] Freeman: but you're the bomb
[8:36:15 PM] Korby: yes
[8:36:46 PM] Korby: and that's one of the reasons it won't be done
[8:36:46 PM] Korby: that and being locked in place feels suck




Excuse me sir, but that sounds like a challenge.


LEAF LOCK II: MOURNING WOOD: THE ROOTS OF EVIL

Putting up the shield visually appears to spawn four leaves, one at a time, around the user in a circle. (Similar to Leaf Shield in Super Smash Bros.) The user's speed slows down while the leaves are spawning, reaching minimum speed once all four leaves are up and the shield begins to "spin". At this point, the user gains a flat percentage of damage reduction (maybe like 30%) and a charge meter builds up over time (similar to Scorch Wheel or Oil Slider). Releasing the shield blasts away nearby projectiles (like current Leaf Shield or Centaur Flash, but only once when the shield is dropped) and pushes enemy players away as well, dealing damage. The force of the blast and the amount of damage scales based on how long Leaf Shield was charged up before releasing it.

The idea behind this is to grant a sort of "area clear" effect, allowing a user to break an enemy's attempts at camping by pushing away traps such as Hyper Bomb, Danger Wrap, and the new Hornet Chaser. The blast effect also helps to repel an enemy at melee range who might be trying to capitalize on the reduced movement speed of the user. The original idea for Leaf Lock I posted ages ago (which Lego reminded me of fairly recently) had the user stand completely still and just sort of soak damage while they charged their repulsion blast, but I feel a slow and a moderate defense boost would both feel more satisfying to the user and be easier to counter by opponents than a complete stop and a huge defense boost.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Bikdark on June 15, 2016, 09:23:13 AM

Quote from: "Lego"

Was talking stuff over Skype, here's another idea we came up with:

-No longer blasts projectiles away.
-Using Leaf Shield doesn't cost ammo immediately.
-Ammo drains while active.
-While the shield is up, the weapon's ammo becomes an extension to your health.
-You cannot pick up items while active.

A bunch of thoughts I have after reading these points. I apologize for disorganization and shitty capitalization.

If by extension of my own health, you mean doom/quake styled armor that takes away a portion of the damage, I personally believe such a design would be more thematically suited toward a different shield weapon, especially one that can more easily communicate such a foreign concept... Which would be junk shield, because that is literally how this quake style armor works.

However, if you mean straight up gaining 30 hp out of nowhere... Be careful. Plant barrier has a problem with people simply running around with it on and not dying, munching hp and ammo. Leaf will have a similar problem regarding this, despite not allowing pickups due to the instant hp gain. It follows the design philosophy of making similar weapons stat changes of eachother, but does Leaf really need to act like this? Was the possibility of deflection/repulsion completely explored? How about battle network or short-lived but rapid shields? If this is the end-all after going through many iterations, it isn't TERRIBLE, but it just seems so funky that Leaf would act like this. Thematically, it should offer no physical protection BECAUSE ITS FUCKING LEAVES, so it pushes things away instead using some... naruto leaf jutsu bullshit idk man.

I'm quite confused by the ammo changes. Doesn't use ammo... but it uses ammo? Is ammo lost when shot? Neat idea, to be honest, but I truly feel like this would be suited to something else. Hell, I could vouch for Water shield using this effect more than i could Leaf shield.

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

TL;DR we might need more clarification on the exact machinations of leaf shield. As it stands though, it seems like leaf something needs something more thematically fitting. Also read the couple questions above kthx

Title: Star Crash though.
Post by: BiscuitSlash on June 15, 2016, 05:54:06 PM

If we're going to tamper with or rework Leaf Shield, then it should be done with other shield weapons in mind. Remember, why are current Leaf Shield and all the new Leaf Shield concepts different from its original MM2 counterpart? Two reasons. Not all that great in a game of this genre, and not enough diversity between the shield weapons.

The first one there is obvious, but the second one needs attention. Look at the current shield weapons and what they do:

Leaf Shield - Ongoing barrier that protects you from most attacks, but useless against buster, fire and cutting weapons. Can be thrown for an extra attack.
Skull Barrier - Lets you take no damage from the next hit. Can be used with other weapons.
Star Crash - Melee weapon. Can be thrown. Also not a shield of any sort. :l
Plant Barrier - Doesn't protect from direct damage but heals the user. Can be thrown for an extra attack.
Mirror Buster - Protects the player from an incoming attack from the front, firing a projectile that increases in power depending on how strong the opposing attack was.
Junk Shield - Reduces the damage you take and can finish as a projectile? Honestly I still haven't figured this one out.
Jewel Satellite - Protects the player from a few attacks, with each occurrence firing a projectile.

For the most part there's a good amount of diversity between them, but if we're going to redo Leaf Shield, which essentially means making a new shield weapon, we need to make sure it isn't too similar to other shield weapons and isn't too dissimilar to it's original, as well as ideally filling in a gap since that would create a more interesting weapon to use.

Current Leaf Shield fills a gap pretty well to be honest. It's the best shield weapon for when you want to get to places (whether it be finding ammo or weapons, or evading is required). The thing that balances it is that being in enemy sight for too long can get you killed and that if you aren't searching for players then you aren't scoring frags.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Russel on June 16, 2016, 12:10:21 AM

The thoughts on the Leaf Shield rework I mentioned were more like a BN-style HP Barrier where it has a set amount of health that it can tank, where the amount of ammo left shows how much health the shield has.
Ammo also gradually drains while its active and players can't pick up ammo to keep people from using it forever.

The wording was just jank.


I'm personally fond of the healing shield idea since it's thematically similar to Plant Barrier.

Quote from: "Bikdark"

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

I was putting forth what a few randos and I discussed in a larger group chat. That was not what we decided within the development team to do with the shield.
Additionally, if anyone was going to try and sell you the new shield, it certainly wouldn't be me as public relations are probably my weakest point [as evidenced by the poor wording on my shield proposal summary.]

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Orange juice :l on June 16, 2016, 01:39:53 AM

When I think "shield made of leaves", I think something that comes out slowly and cushions incoming projectiles with layers of soft material. Now perhaps this can't compete with Skull Barrier if sticking to theme, but then again SB sort of "has it all" when it comes to shields- nigh instant use and total invincibility. To this end I would suggest SB could be "shattered" if it takes too much damage, meanwhile Leaf Shield would be a "softer" SB that uses ammo both over time and when hit; while active, damage taken is mitigated (not blocked entirely) depending on ammo remaining. To prevent stalling, deactivating would consume extra ammo and ammo can't be collected while active.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Bikdark on June 16, 2016, 03:17:54 AM

Quote from: "Lego"

Quote from: "Bikdark"

What are the goals of this new leaf shield? What is trying to be accomplished and how will map makers determine whether or not to put this in their map instead of say, plant barrier? Treat this shit like a new League of Legends rework, try and sell it to us!

I was putting forth what a few randos and I discussed in a larger group chat. That was not what we decided within the development team to do with the shield.
Additionally, if anyone was going to try and sell you the new shield, it certainly wouldn't be me as public relations are probably my weakest point [as evidenced by the poor wording on my shield proposal summary.]

...?

Do not propose something until you know what the point of it is. Now that I know that even YOU don't know what this new Leaf Shield is supposed to do, I am fully against this new iteration. You need to be asking yourself "what's the point?" and "what am I even trying to accomplish?" multiple times during the development process of a weapon, or your ideas might as well be thrown out the window. Come back with a refined, well-thought out plan of what you want Leaf Shield to be instead of something half-assed.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Gumballtoid on June 16, 2016, 12:02:56 PM

Perhaps I could better articulate it? I was a part of the discussion myself.

The idea behind this new Leaf Shield is comparable to the Mana Shield skills seen in other games, where it absorbs damage and drains MP rather than HP. While putting the shield up has little or no ammo cost, taking damage will deplete it. To prevent infinite use of the shield, ammo will also slowly drain over time. Players cannot pick up items while the shield is up, so to recover any lost health or ammo or pick up that oh-so-coveted weapon, the shield will have to be thrown away, which will most likely have a small ammo cost. Lastly, the shield will not protect the player against environmental hazards such as fire traps, count bombs, force beams, and crushers.

I can see a few uses for this weapon, the foremost being an escape tool in LMS or Duel. Since the projectile itself is also fairly strong, it would probably make an effective offensive tool if the need arose, such as in a Deathmatch setting.

The only thing I'm unsure of is whether or not the weapon's weaknesses (fire, blades, busters) will still be effective. I would think not, considering the weapon itself would be on the squishier side at this point.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: BiscuitSlash on June 16, 2016, 02:53:13 PM

It seems like a good idea for the most part, but my question is how often will people want to use it? It seems decent as a run away utility, but that inability to pick up health and weapons will probably discourage people from switching to it and using it. Kinda seems like current Leaf Shield does the job better.

Still, does seem like it's worth considering. "Will people actually want to bother using this" should always be taken into account though, which is why Flash Stopper is almost never used.

Also I'd like to see Star Crash up for a future debate.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Magnet Dood on June 16, 2016, 03:26:19 PM

I'm not really sure on this one. It honestly sounds like a worse Skull Barrier as it stands- SB lets you pick up items while you're running around with it and protects you from most environmental hazards. Not only does this new concept drain continuously like Skull does, it also loses more power when you're hit using it. The attack option is nice, but the projectile's already pretty slow and isn't entirely useful.

Personally, I think the concept would work better with a fatigue bar, like Bubble Man has when he's swimming. If it's left up for too long, something like a counter or whatever shows up on the ammo bar until the weapon is automatically thrown away for you. That way you take out the draining function and leave it purely as a damage sponge, which works a lot better IMO.

If you were to ask me, I'd prefer Leaf Shield to be more of a "attack by throwing" shield, since that was what it mainly served as in MM2. While this completely counterproductive to what a shield's supposed to do, I think the concept could work as a sort of quick-block shield, where you throw it up to block an initial barrage from one of your enemies, and then move forward to toss the shield at them. I think the move-lock aspect could be implemented if you put in a fatigue bar as well- once you put it up, the counter starts going down until you automatically throw it. Either of these ideas would help to differentiate it from current shields in the game, though, so I'm in support of them.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Gumballtoid on June 16, 2016, 04:35:19 PM

I think Mana Leaves lends itself to the quick block idea pretty well. Since the projectile is fairly strong, you can absorb whatever damage is being done to you and then return it to the sender.

Though, the fatigue bar similar to Mirror Buster is not a bad take on it either. That should also be considered.

Do keep in mind that Skull Barrier is being changed as well. In what fashion, I do not recall, but even so, that has been confirmed.

Title: Re: MM8BDM v5 - Weapon Tuning (Leaf Shield)
Post by: Dr. Freeman on June 16, 2016, 05:02:34 PM

With the changes put in V5, you put Skull Barrier up, and it protects you from one hit from any projectile, in which the shield breaks and there's some sort of delay before you can put it up again. It's also the only shield where after you put it up, you can switch off to other weapons and do other things. Given that it only protects you from one hit from anything, it's good for tanking powerful weapons such as Hard Knuckle, but rapid fire weapons such as Needle Cannon or Yamato Spear will tear right through it in a second and leave you open for the rest of the rapid fire shots.

i think that's a decentish way to explain it.