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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Bugs/Suggestions => MM8BDM Discussion => Closed => Topic started by: Korby on May 09, 2016, 12:23:21 AM

Title: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Face
Post by: Korby on May 09, 2016, 12:23:21 AM
Two pretty exciting ideas have been mulling around in the devteam for a while now. Both of them will be covered in two topics made in this forum so that you can provide your feedback on them.
The first of them was creating a skin for the Tournament Robot* to serve as the new base skin.
The new base skin had to be simple, small, preferably use large blotches of blue and cyan for ease of weapon identification, and, of course, look good.
Eventually, we arrived upon this.
(http://i.imgur.com/QebE0RL.png)

Introducing Maestro, the Tournament Robot. The word maestro often refers to conductors, and we felt this was a good fit for a personification of the player.
The design itself is heavily inspired by the design of NormNavi from the Battle Network series; aside from looking fairly cool, it was a fairly decent idea for what would end up being used for what can often be the most commonly seen skin.

Now, you might be wondering why there's two sets there;
I'm split on which color scheme to use if we go forward with this idea. On the one hand, the first palette has more cyan and will be more readable weapon-wise; on the other hand, the second palette looks better. If you're in favor of Maestro, which palette do you prefer?

*This statement isn't...quite true. The original idea was three skins for Maestro. A Male, a Female, and an Other skin. The one you see above is what was originally the "other" design. While I was originally in favor of this idea, I have recently come to the conclusion that including three skins for an original character might bother some people, so we went with other version as it honestly looked the coolest. Do you think it'd be worth it to add the other two versions in?
You can see their tentative designs here (http://i.imgur.com/t0ZpEqU.png).

Finally, if you're in favor of this idea but you don't like the execution, you are more than welcome to take a shot at designing Maestro yourself!
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Rui on May 09, 2016, 12:53:48 AM
I love the concept of a player robot and having it be based off the NormNavi (along with creating a unique classic design) sounds really awesome. Can't wait to see this in game!

I can see why just an Other skin would be enough but at the same time having a male and female one sounds also nice for the sake of the neither of them becoming stale, since the player has the option of three rather than just one. Only critique I can give is that the female's pose in the tentative design feels a bit more... flamboyant than it should be? Doesn't feel as neutral as the male one but that could be just me.

EDIT:

Made a few simple changes to the tentative design.

(http://i.imgur.com/j5zarE9.png)

Male one is fine so I left it as is, while I added a bit of the light blue on Female's chest armor and nerfed the heels (or what I'm assuming were heels?) to provide more semblance between the two. Fighting with heels also sounds like a pain and didn't feel as fitting for a fighting robot.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Orange juice :l on May 09, 2016, 01:04:30 AM
Why change what's currently in-place? MM8BDM has always paid heed to staying loyal to the classic series (when at all possible) and as such Megaman seems like the logical choice for "main character", especially versus what, as far as I can tell, is an original character. Mega's got logical reason to be the player character (Dr. Light's tournament entry) and nobody would second-guess him using all the weapons available.

Of course, this brings up the issue of Megaman being relegated to the ubiquitous "Default"/"Anonymous"/"Custom-Not-Downloaded" character whereas he should be a legitimate choice as being the flagship character lends him a lot of popularity. To this end I would suggest the default being Sniper Joe and you are suggested to change to Megaman (or whatever skin is desired) during the player setup tutorial (I don't know what it currently is comprised of as I only did it back when it was just a popup of the control bind menu. If there isn't a guiding hand to skin/name changing and its impact on multiplayer, I would suggest that). Sniper Joe definitely gives off a more mass-produced or generic feel to me that would fit him better.

Finally, why would I want to play as Maestro? Assume I'm John Averageplayer- I grew up playing as Megaman and fighting Cutman, Woodman, Magnetman, etc. etc. so clearly my desire is to play as one of them. The skin looks nice and all but simply put I don't think the idea of a "generic default" character is needed when skins/characters like Megaman and Sniper Joe are present. This is, of course, assuming Megaman doesn't become a plot character that can't be logically tied to the player.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 09, 2016, 01:17:05 AM
I'll admit I'm not crazy about the idea of a new character just for the base skin, either. I definitely want to see the base skin changed to Sniper Joe (http://www.cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6330) on account of the mass-produced, blank slate feel OJ pointed out, but personifying the shoes intended to be filled by the player seems kind of farfetched. That's what Mega Man was made for, after all.

...Though I have to admit, basing him off of the Normal Navi was definitely a step in the right direction. If this is in fact the route you go, you're doing it right.

I'd still prefer Sniper Joe, though.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Watzup7856 on May 09, 2016, 01:22:43 AM
In all honesty I don't like the idea of an "avatar" default skin. I'd rather Megaman still be the default skin, since it feels like your playing the main character and not a generic NPC looking dude.

EDIT: Although it might be this reason that new players have better reason to switch to a skin that's not the default one
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Kapus on May 09, 2016, 01:31:40 AM
Quote from: "Orange juice :l"
This is, of course, assuming Megaman doesn't become a plot character that can't be logically tied to the player.
Doesn't Mega Man already show up (along with Bass) fighting alongside you in the MM&B campaign?

I'm completely indifferent to the idea. I don't think this is needed at all, but if it were added, I don't really think that he/she/it needs to be given a name. Players name themselves in the game, and if this character is meant to be a default stand in for the player, it should probably remain nameless. Then again, to appear in the skin selection, it would need to have a name. I dunno. From the point of view of a person new to the game, I feel like seeing Maestro along with the rest of the robot masters in the skin list would come off more like a random OC then a player avatar. Maybe just have him be named "Default"?


On the subject of genders, I'm again not too swayed in any favor, but I do like variety and the different takes on the character's design seems neat. +1 for the variations I guess.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Korby on May 09, 2016, 01:36:18 AM
As a quick note, Maestro's name wouldn't actually appear anywhere in game unless we give him a bot.
The default skin is always named "base," and he won't be referred to by name in the campaign. That'll continue being the player's name.
Really, the only reason we gave him a name was so we could have something to call him other than tournament robot internally.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 09, 2016, 02:10:49 AM
I've always liked the idea of creating a default, blank slate character! I would always jabber on about how a mass produced robot like Sniper Joe or some other unique character should take the role of the base skin, though I never made an effort to push for it. I also think it'd make Megaman feel more important, somehow..

+1 to a gender-neutral appearance.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 09, 2016, 02:16:58 AM
Quote from: "Orange juice :l"
Why change what's currently in-place? MM8BDM has always paid heed to staying loyal to the classic series (when at all possible) and as such Megaman seems like the logical choice for "main character", especially versus what, as far as I can tell, is an original character.
Quote from: "Watzup7856"
I'd rather Megaman still be the default skin, since it feels like your playing the main character and not a generic NPC looking dude.
yeah sure alright but here's why you're wrong


Throughout the entire game, it's made painfully clear that the main character is not Mega Man, that Mega Man is off doing his own thing somewhere and you're just some tournament robot who keeps getting lucky. Then when the MM&B chapter finally rolls around, you get to partner up with the legendary Blue Bomber himself, alongside the unexpected ally Bass. It makes perfect sense to have a generic-looking design for the tournament robot, to strengthen the game's storyline as well as to give 8-Bit Deathmatch more personality as a game. This living, breathing behemoth of a project has been steadily growing and evolving for over five years, and it's about due time that the game got a little more extra flavor as its own thing.

Following up on that, I'm also in full agreement with the addition of the male and female skins as well. It would be wonderful to see some more diversity in online games, and also help restore the Blue Bomber to his former glory instead of the current "oh great another Mega Man" feeling.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Superjustinbros on May 09, 2016, 02:25:41 AM
Indifferent with this idea; I'll just put it at that for the most part.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Thunderono on May 09, 2016, 02:38:50 AM
Afaik, the Tournament Robot was already an OC.  As Roll herself points out, your appearance as Mega Man, Sniper Joe or any other character is simply display overtop of a previously undefined face.  Considering Wily's reprogramming of the robot masters, it's safe to assume that every enemy you face in the single player campaign is the real deal; Spark Man is the actual Spark Man, Hard Man the real deal, and even Sniper Joe.  It's pointed out through dialogue and the Mega Man 6 ending that you play as a robot designed by Dr. Light to fight in the tournament while Mega Man does mega stuff.  With all this in mind, giving the Tournament Robot a real design only adds to the character.  I'm all for the default skin being Maestro, but I'm mostly indifferent on the variants.

That said, which version would be the actual default, should the three variants be added?  Would it be other, or is there some way to change that based on the gender chosen?
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Korby on May 09, 2016, 02:44:44 AM
Unfortunately, there's no way to change a skin based on your gender.
Assuming we go with other for the default, the other two would be added as Base-M and Base-F.
Title: Short but dense wall of text
Post by: Orange juice :l on May 09, 2016, 02:53:16 AM
Bear in mind that even if there is a new generic character, how many people are going to use it? The moment a new player strolls into the skin wardrobe they're going to browse the huge variety of skins and pick their favorite (even if you haven't played a Megaman game you're probably going to be drawn to someone or other, such as the guy with his head on fire, the walking log with a funny name, or the walking metal log with the funnier name). This is the ONLY time they will ever see Maestro (unless they dig up the chase command, and even then, Maestro looks super generic from the back) if they stick to single player, so it'll be nothing more than a quick "wat" versus a quick chuckle at "you're fresh off the assembly line so you just look like a Joe". Korby seems to be making the point that Maestro is supposed to be low-key and even unnamed- nothing more than a graphic for the person behind the keyboard- but if we introduce this new robot, that demands an introduction (otherwise we'd be hand-waving this sketchy guy while people wonder "is that guy from the X series or something? Should I be checking the readme?"), making him into a whole character that erodes the idea of the player being the competitor, and you are instead controlling Maestro. Joe as a temporary start with a hurried introduction to the skin wardrobe is much more immersive as YOU are picking who YOUR favorite character is, and hell, if you're up against that same character as a bot that only goes to show that you're the player, one and the same as the protagonist, using that robot master as a skin.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 09, 2016, 03:41:25 AM
you're gonna see maestro all the time when people are using custom skins
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Orange juice :l on May 09, 2016, 03:54:21 AM
And in that case, regardless of your skin, the whole idea of immersion in the plot goes out the window. So now that we're playing multiplayer, do we want to see Maestro everywhere or Sniper Joe everywhere? Personally I think the latter makes far more sense both from a lore and immersion standpoint.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 09, 2016, 03:55:40 AM
I would like to second the above sentiments. Maestro is cool and all, but I'd still prefer Joe.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 09, 2016, 04:42:03 AM
I see that things are already cleared up:

-You play as "the tournament robot", not Mega Man. Mega Man is part of the tournament at one point, he is a different character from you. Even the main villain acknowledges you as a separate character.

-The tournament robot is faceless because the player is supposed to fill in the blanks with whatever they want, even their OC, Maestro. Forcing a predetermined original character as the supposedly faceless tournament robot kinda defeats the entire purpose of it in the first place. Keep it as officially faceless as possible. EDIT: the idea of randomly assigning a fresh install player a random skin at the beginning of the singleplayer campaign (not multiplayer, that should be the default base class skin, Mega Man) was thrown around 2 years ago, but ultimately dropped. Or something like that.

-Mega Man is the default skin perhaps because Mega Man is the most recognizable character in the entire franchise, or because he's got a far more basic design than any other character, but not because the tournament robot is Mega Man: this is very clearly stated by every other character in the game. Mega Man's skin design makes any color scheme change a dead giveaway: from any angle you can clearly see what color scheme any player is wearing, it is very evident and conveys itself very easily. Giving this fact any lore importance or using this as an argument for giving the faceless player character a face is a moot point: the story very clearly separates the tournament robot from Mega Man.

-Maestro is a good OC, I'll give you that. Maybe some would consider the lack of Doom-like nods in its design a sin, maybe some would call him Staff (a musical staff, where you write all musical compositions) or Raster (the writing tool used to draw musical charts), but Maestro's a nifty name. Not in my MM8BDM, though.

-Sniper Joe being the default skin (different from the canon "face" of the tournament robot) instead of Mega Man clearly has enough approval of the community, as seen twice already, and it makes sense, as explained twice already. If it's the right choice or not, that's honestly something that should be up to Mike. Not me, not you, not the "mayority" of the "community", not any transitory devteam chief, but Mike.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: fortegigasgospel on May 09, 2016, 07:38:09 AM
Mega Man even appears in the first stage of the Campaign, Cut Man, his bot is in various stages. So right off the bat it is clear you aren't Megaman. Hell when you first start the game you are standing in front of Light and he uses your name.
Also the idea of being a Joe with a name right off the bat is questionable also. If you are supposedly a Joe fresh off the assembly line, why didn't he call you "Sniper Joe" or "Joe" why do you have a name, you're apparently a nameless mass-produced robot who can't be differentiated with the one standing next to you?
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: JaxOf7 on May 09, 2016, 08:34:45 AM
Just gonna get this out of the way: the Sniper Joe skin isn't very good. He's got cyan on his gun, belt buckle, and backpack. That's it. If we use that, I expect colors redone.

To summarize what has been said: you are a tourney robot. You have a display module that masks your appearance, much like the alien hologram in MM2. You have a default setting when you come into being. Other guys using custom skins you don't have also use this default setting. There are 3 choices for this setting
1. Megaman
+Good skin
+Easily recognizable
-MegaMan is already a character in story
-Supposed to be a main hero sort of character, odd to see in droves
2. Sniper Joe
+Not a singular character
+Easily recognizable
+Being seen in droves matches his canon appearance
(-Not a good skin at this moment)
-Monoeye gives an evil connotation, odd to have as "hero"
3. Maestro
(*The appearance of having your display module "off")
+Very neutral look, works as both a droves character and hero character
+Good skin
+Gives the game identity among the megaman franchise (much like what the Megaman Killers do for the GB remakes)
-Confusion for people new to game

You know what, I'm rootin for maestro. Though Sniper Joe option is close 2nd. Maybe we could go with a more original looking Sniper Joe? They get modified all the damn time, it would not be a stretch.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Geno on May 09, 2016, 01:40:02 PM
I personally want the Maestro character with the alts to be in the game, because I'd actually legitimately want to use the female variation of the skin, haha

Also, basing it off of the NormalNavi from Battle Network was a cool thing
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 09, 2016, 03:28:21 PM
i tried to make some alt designs, but i realized that emptiness is exactly what makes maestro work. adding a face or a new pose or elements from some kind of culture or animal gives it a sort of personality.

doodle (http://orig04.deviantart.net/bdee/f/2016/130/8/4/maestro_by_mechawisp-da1zo8e.png)
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Max on May 09, 2016, 04:11:43 PM
Quote from: "JaxOf7"
(*The appearance of having your display module "off")

I back him because of this

people saying 'OH WHO WOULD USE HIM THOUGH' well who uses mega man i don't see anyone and this base guy
-looks better
-gives mega man more identity through seperation
-is MUCH BETTER THAN A SNIPER JOE and is unique to 8bdm
-makes a lot of sense in the campaign because you're the only one who can change skin so it's like you're a different robot to everyone else with a display module and that's you with it off

plus its not really an 'OC' if he's not a character either just a face

I will say he looks more like a repliroid from Mega Man X7 or something than a robot master mostly because of the big chest and tiny arms? I think
I dont want to redraw him though you can do that
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 09, 2016, 06:11:25 PM
Giving the faceless character a face defeats the purpose of inmersion, at least from my point of view. The tournament robot, with his display module "off", is not meant to be seen, but is instead meant to be given a different form by the player with any other skin they've got, core or custom.

It's easier to understand why the Mega Man skin is the default base skin, easier to explain, easier to forgive, easier to relate to the concept of it: it's a filler form. Replacing it with this original character raises more questions than answers, and disassociates the game from the series. Imagine being in the shoes of a new player, joining an online match, and seeing the default skin: if he sees Megamen, it's easier to relate him with the concept of an automatically displayed default skin in place of missing custom ones; if he sees any other official character, the concept is still graspable and relatable to something already established and known and accepted; if he sees an original, fan-made character, there's nothing to relate it to other than being some guy's randomly plastered original character skin into the game because of favors or influence and whatnot. It feels like walking into a server with a lot of people wearing Yoshi the Hedgehog skins at the same time: better for the default skin to be a core, official character than a fan-made one, because the former is more known and relatable to the concept of a blank slate, basic, default display skin. You can't miss with Mega Man (or any other official Mega Man character) as the default skin, unlike with a non-official one.






There's essentially three topics colliding with each other:

-The faceless tournament robot as a character the player fills in. This is, in my opinion, an idea that should be kept intact, as its been. But this is not the point of the topic, despite coming into play when you introduce...

-"Maestro" as the "face" of the faceless tournament robot, who is in my opinion a very cool idea and a nice looking character, which will probably get a skin and class of its own, things I'll actually encourage. The thing is, officially giving a predetermined form to a "formless" character where players are expected to give it form of their own machinations is wrong (not even bad). This is just discussing the quality of the character itself, which is also not the point of the topic, which is...

-Changing the base skin. I've already argued that Mega Man is and has been a better candidate for the base skin than anybody else for its widely known and commonly accepted status, as well as his very plain and basic design (which lends itself naturally to all the color schemes because, you know, they were designed for him to begin with). You can try and redesign Maestro to mimic Mega Man's blue/cyan color distribution more, but at that point, why even care about designing Maestro as the base skin when Mega Man is more relatable and accepted? Don't change it: Maestro feels like something that I'd expect to see in CutmanMike's MM8BDM Concept Art sketchbook (49.59), as an unused character.

I'd go as far as say that, now that you've unveiled Maestro as a base skin replacement and a personification of the player, you've already established it as a character separate from the personal, individual form each player has given it, and by relation given to themselves, over the years: it's already been retconned.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Kapus on May 09, 2016, 07:04:24 PM
Has this concept been brought up to Cutmanmike himself? I would like to know what he thinks of it.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 09, 2016, 07:41:53 PM
I don't like Mega Man being the base skin. I want to be able to use the Mega Man skin and not have everyone else say, "Oh, I wonder what custom skin that guy is using." Whether or not folks go the Maestro route, I want to see the base skin changed.

I would also like to know what Mike's thoughts on this are. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought he was pretty adamant about not identifying the Tournament Robot.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: JaxOf7 on May 09, 2016, 07:59:04 PM
For the record, I think guys who wanted to be identified as Megaman would have just used Megaman-Hair up until now.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: CutmanMike on May 09, 2016, 10:12:40 PM
I gave this the OK a while back since the story has has always (and even more now) pointed out that you are not Mega Man. I'm seeing a lot of concerns about irking new players when they're given this original character from the get go (remember that when you start the game, you are pushed to the player options screen and you see your base skin which is Mega Man), and I would find myself in that category as I dislike Mega Man (or any) fangame content that introduces it's own original characters. It is why there is no CutmanMike skin in the game, and why I have always tried to use every available Mega Man character that is canon even if they originally had very little to do with the original game series itself (see Gamma/Evil Robot/Genesis Unit etc).

If we're going to do it, he should be as faceless as possible as many people have stated. He should be as blank slate/boring as possible. No name, no backstory, just the base skin for the game. I wouldn't even give him a bot for people to choose from in custom games, because he's not a character. He's you, the player. What you are or why you're in the Mega Man universe is up for the player to decide, not us. If the character looks as "base" as possible, I think new players will realize what he is.

I don't like Sniper Joe being the base character either. Sniper Joes are mass created but their appearance is well known. I would prefer for you to have your own look. Someone created you and you went to Dr. Light's lab to get suited up for the Tournament. You're not a random Sniper Joe that entered the tourney. You are you.

For these reasons I am ok with the decision to have a base skin for the game that is an original creation. As for the design, I would like him to have armor and animations similar to Mega Man's, which is extremely simple. I will let the community decide on the rest.

Btw this does not fix the problem of new players always being the same skin. I think that is a different matter entirely that we might be able to fix (if we wanted to).

Quote from: "MusashiAA"
Maestro feels like something that I'd expect to see in CutmanMike's MM8BDM Concept Art sketchbook (49.59), as an unused character.

Hmmm what a great idea! My concept art is usually fabulous (http://i.imgur.com/Ac83ubu.png).  :)
Title: the "Player" in attack formation A is beautiful
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 09, 2016, 10:39:32 PM
Mike is the hero we all needed
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Zard1084 on May 09, 2016, 10:44:46 PM
I agree with mike that the Tournament Robot needs to be as faceless as possible
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 09, 2016, 11:11:34 PM
In that case, basing him off of the Normal Navi is definitely the way to go.

If he could be tweaked to be a little more simple and Mega Man-like, then I'm all for it.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 09, 2016, 11:49:35 PM
Well there you go.

I'd suggest removing chest and shoulder pieces, using Protoman's jumpsuit as basis (arm pieces/belt/boots blue, shoulders black, torso and legs cyan), and perhaps making Maestro a little shorter.

As for his helmet...

(click to show/hide)

This is the best I could make: a mixture between "Sniper Joe" and Doomguy's helmet. A face-covered, slightly oval-shaped helmet with few linear marks on his jaw area, his ear pads and over his "eyes", a black monitor display acting as a visor with two digital eyes a-la Galaxy Man (with no physical separation between it and the lower/upper parts of the helmet, flat and uniform), and a single protusion on the front top that very slightly comes down.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 12:23:18 AM
To be honest.

It's really off putting. Like many of the new "skinners" will just make edits of this skin (not like the default Mega Man has been edited before), like many new M.U.G.E.N. programmers edit Kung Fu Man (that needs to be made a skin as well).

I mean why have a "Mega Man 8 bit deathmatch" game if Mega Man isn't the default skin?
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: fortegigasgospel on May 10, 2016, 02:27:24 AM
Because everything minus this one skin is from the Mega Man series, in 8-bit, and even this skin is based off a generic NPC character from all 6+ games of a different Mega Man series (Battle Network).
Having folks edit this new base skin honestly won't happen as often as you think, most who base off Megaman is because most of the time he is used by the source material they are using. And having edits of this skin could even work out as a "custom" version of, heck some people might even adapt their edits to the character as their own person (if they don't have one).
And keeping in line of his origin design being the Normal Navi, in Battle Network, ALL navi's look like a normal navi (with their own names, evident in 4) until the user customizes them, which is where the bosses come from. So the whole "visual change" idea ends up working in line with the source material further.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 03:22:58 AM
First off this isn't called "MegaMan Battle Network 8 bit Deathmatch".

And second, Mega Man edits come off as lazy.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Kapus on May 10, 2016, 04:30:53 AM
I don't really follow your logic, bass44. This is still a Mega Man game, having a little nod to another series in the Mega Man franchise isn't out of place. It's not even the exact same character or anything, it's simply a little allusion.

Mega Man edits don't really have anything to do with this--the character is not an edit of Mega Man, nor are any other skins in the core (barring capcom's own edits, such as MM10 Bass)


We didn't name the game Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch because Mega Man is the default skin. We called it that because the game itself is based on Mega Man and it's 8-bit and an FPS.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 04:33:57 AM
Quote from: "Kapus"
I don't really follow your logic, bass44. This is still a Mega Man game, having a little nod to another series in the Mega Man franchise isn't out of place. It's not even the exact same character or anything, it's simply a little allusion.

Mega Man edits don't really have anything to do with this--the character is not an edit of Mega Man, nor are any other skins in the core (barring capcom's own edits, such as MM10 Bass)


We didn't name the game Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch because Mega Man is the default skin. We called it that because the game itself is based on Mega Man and it's 8-bit and an FPS.

Okay think about this for a second.

Mega Man is the main character of the game. It makes sense to have him as the default skin.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Kapus on May 10, 2016, 04:49:59 AM
There's hardly a main character in the game, though. Even in the story, Mega Man only appears as a helper character. The game is based around the Mega Man series, but as far as the story and campaign goes, Mega Man as a character is not the focus.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 04:50:31 AM
Quote from: "Kapus"
There's hardly a main character in the game, though. Even in the story, Mega Man only appears as a helper character. The game is based around the Mega Man series, but as far as the story and campaign goes, Mega Man as a character is not the focus.

I still DESPISE this idea. End of story
Title: MMX has an aggregate review score of 88.50%
Post by: Mendez on May 10, 2016, 06:47:01 AM
I honestly never thought the "MM" in MM8BDM was referring to the character and was instead encompassing the entire franchise, since every title in the series starts with the words "Mega Man". You're gonna tell me Mega Man is the main character of Mega Man X, or that Mega Man Zero also stars Mega Man? The logic used to name those other games is the same logic used to name this game as well.
Having said all that, the eyes on Maestro bum me out and I hope you can make those white squares look less unpleasant.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 10, 2016, 11:49:49 AM
Maybe try for either an Astro Man-style eye display or even a Sniper Joe / Break Man-style visor. Except with two eyes like normal people have. Musashi is probably on the right track here.

I would also like to point out that there's nothing stopping you from replacing the base skin with whatever you like, post-release. If you want it to be Mega Man, hey, more power to you.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: BiscuitSlash on May 10, 2016, 03:23:48 PM
For awhile I've been in favour of changing the base skin, as it just seems silly to have loads of Megamans running around in online matches, which ends up happening a lot. It's also degrading for Megaman, as he's the main hero of the series and makes an appearance in the game, not being the player character.

While I've liked the idea of the base skin being Sniper Joe, due to them being mass produced, I'm starting to like Maestro more. Makes more sense for Dr. Light to make a robot like Maestro, especially since he probably stopped making Joe robots.

I say change the bass skin to Maestro. If not, Sniper Joe. It really is about time the base skin stopped being Megaman. Just make it clear at the start of the game that the player currently has their appearance-changing-thing disabled. Do so through Dr. Light's introduction thing.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 10, 2016, 05:08:48 PM
I'mma say this again, if you're gonna add Maestro, change his design to be more basic and boring: no chest pieces, no shoulder pads, an even color distribution a-la Mega Man/Proto Man.
Title: Re: PJSalt
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 10, 2016, 06:10:53 PM
Quote from: "Kapus"
This is still a Mega Man game, having a little nod to another series in the Mega Man franchise isn't out of place.
technically we've already done it

X teleporting in when you clear the MM6 chapter, for starters :ugeek:
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: chuggaafan1 on May 10, 2016, 10:27:56 PM
i'm a sucker for anything bn-related so basing maestro off a normnavi is an instant plus, but i just feel like this is a good idea as a whole. you're not megaman, you're another robot built by doctor light, which the joe series bots aren't (anymore, anyways). a sniper joe would make sense for being mass-produced, but they're not light bots.
Title: Re: Maestro 8 bit deathmatch.
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 10:57:33 PM
Oh wow I guess I'm wrong because I'm the only person who doesn't agree with this.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Watzup7856 on May 10, 2016, 11:12:57 PM
Relax man, no one is taking away your meds. I'm not really in favor of changing the default skin either due to previous reasons. Plus I feel like if a new default skin was decided, then people would get sick of that skin too.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: bass44 on May 10, 2016, 11:17:47 PM
Quote from: "Watzup7856"
Relax man, no one is taking away your meds. I'm not really in favor of changing the default skin either due to previous reasons. Plus I feel like if a new default skin was decided, then people would get sick of that skin too.

Thank you for being respectful of my opinion.

I mean going back to the whole "Mega Man" edit thing, is that with a lot of skins people use the Mega Man sprite as a base and edit over them, but they still look like Mega Man except in cosplay.

And yes I am guilty of making one of those skins, it was back in 2012 when I wasn't good at pixel art.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 10, 2016, 11:31:54 PM
Yeah, you're verily much blowing it out of proportion: "Maestro" being the new base skin is just for convenience's sake, not to shove Mega Man out of "the spotlight".

The MM in MM8BDM refers to the series, not the character itself. Mega Man is the base skin because he's the most basic and default character available in the series. The concept behind Maestro is a good idea, but I was against it because it might have too much character to it that would disassociate players from "the tournament robot". If Mike agrees with not only the idea of a base skin "character" but my sentiment of it being as base and plain and boring-looking as possible, then I'm all for it, especially if it goes the extra mile of no in-game recognition of "Maestro" for the sake of establishing it being "you".

Now, where is Maestro's ornament-less design?
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 10, 2016, 11:42:35 PM
I disagree with Musashi but that's entirely because of his wording

"plain" or "simplistic" would be good ways to go with the new base skin design
but it shouldn't be "boring-looking"

I mean you should still want to look at it sometimes
don't make it completely unappealing or anything
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 11, 2016, 12:23:41 AM
(https://i.gyazo.com/094fd656eb95d7a00c5445c77a8dafc1.png)

I got bored halfway through so I put his head on a body, shuffled a few parts around, and gyazo'd it. But it's a start.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Watzup7856 on May 11, 2016, 12:26:54 AM
Well that's one way of making people get sick of a default skin real easy. Boring, unappealing, and generic looking to turn a player off. Good edit GBT
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 11, 2016, 12:29:14 AM
I should probably point out that I really only bothered with the helmet.

I have no idea how his body would look so I spliced some others.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 11, 2016, 02:56:22 AM
(http://puu.sh/oNy9E/463f995099.PNG)

I suck at rotation sprites. This is meant to be overall less bulky and detailed than Korby's original design...maybe a little too less detailed.

Protoman jumpsuit and my first helmet design

vs.

Protoman jumpsuit with arm sections being black and "uncovered", forearm/hand sections being blue, and my same first helmet design with two jaw pieces colored cyan to better emulate these (http://puu.sh/oNyCc/2e410d3118.jpg).

EDIT: Another thing that should be discussed/designed is how his arm cannon will look like.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 11, 2016, 03:27:24 AM
it looks bulkier to me

i tried to take in the arms on the original design a lil since the upper body was too big
this may have not been the best way to tackle it tho
(http://i.imgur.com/oVsSozU.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/LuypbjR.png)
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: CutmanMike on May 11, 2016, 02:27:45 PM
I like the sprite but I still think he is too detailed for a base character. Maybe ditch the black legs and make him look more like MusashiAA's attempt.

His animations and buster should be basic like Mega Man's I think.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Max on May 11, 2016, 04:25:33 PM
Did doodles

(http://i.imgur.com/5POOYNB.png)

Face 1 - Korby's
Face 2 - Astro style eyes with a more robot-masterish angled visor
Face 3 - Astro style eyes in white with cheeks added back in
Face 4&5 - 2&3 but with the original 'base' / playable characterish visor

Body 1 - Korby's
Body 2 - Blander with bigger arms and straighter chest - probably not enough cyan but you get it
Body 3 - Original with Mega Man -ish stance
Body 4 - Same as 3 with the 2's colours
Body 5 - Mega Man 's suit with original arms
Body 6 - Mega Maestro

personally i'm not in favour of making him literally have Mega Man's / Proto Man's suit I think that's a bit too far makes him look like a poor edit instead of a base or the world's most unimaginative robotmaster
I put my personal favourite combo at the bottom but it definitely needs more cyan maybe on the bottom of the boots and widened waist strip

EDIT

Quote from: "Me, like 2 minutes ago"
but it definitely needs more cyan maybe on the bottom of the boots and widened waist strip

(http://i.imgur.com/wKzwQQA.png)
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 11, 2016, 04:44:07 PM
i had a thought about making the design so bare, to the point of putting in more black, as if most parts of the bot's body weren't really completed. imagine exposed framework w/ limited armor. it might not do a good job of delivering readability.

it wouldn't work but it's food for thought
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 11, 2016, 05:56:34 PM
I like YD's face 5 visor and Ceri's idea of more black to give the impression of no armor plating on some body parts (arms mainly, forearms could just stay blue). I'm gonna insist on removing any black outline separations between body parts (except maybe one outline to separate the chest from the waist and down), those shoulder parts have to go IMO.

(http://puu.sh/oOdob/7207e5ce5a.PNG)

Upper row uses a gray color to better showcase the limb separations (with and without black outlines) and visor design, where black is used. Bottow row is regular black.

From left to right:

Body 1 is YD's attempt at a more basic form of Korby's design.
Body 2 is YD's prefered design.
Body 3 is my attempt at riding of black outlines while keeping only one to separate the chest from the waist and legs, using YD's Face 5.
Body 4 is my attempt at Ceri's idea of exposed arm and leg sections filled with black. forearm and boots are blue, torso and waist are cyan with a black outline to separate both. This one has the best color distribution IMO.
Body 5 uses my first attempt's Body 2 with Face 1, IMO my visor design is more of a proper visor design that mimic Astroman and Galaxyman's visors, where they connect with their ear pads.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 11, 2016, 06:22:05 PM
zzz

(http://i.imgur.com/sf3BABT.png)
(http://i.imgur.com/Ikt1sJ1.png)
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Korby on May 11, 2016, 08:26:16 PM
I've had this lying around for a little while so I figured I'd throw it up after doing a couple more tweaks to the helmet.
(http://i.imgur.com/PttqBFe.png)
Sash, head, and arms simplified.
I don't like the idea of making him look too much like Megaman because that essentially defeats the point of both making him look like NormNavi and replacing the base skin in the first place.
His animations being similar is fine, though.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 12, 2016, 12:28:42 AM
Korby's sprite with solid arm colors like Musashi/Ceridran's designs would probably look nice
personally I'd make 'em all cyan to evenly spread out the colors on the skin, but that's just me
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 12, 2016, 03:14:47 AM
I really advise evenly distributed and solid colors for the design, as it would make any color scheme incredibly evident and accentuate the simple and base nature of the skin. That's why I said: arm and boot pieces blue, torso and waist cyan, forearms and legs black. Just as how I insist on no goddamned shoulder pieces, I insist on no goddamned striped trimmings a-la Quint: keep it simple.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Hallan Parva on May 12, 2016, 05:08:54 AM
the solid-colored armor is reasonable
I like the shoulder pads though, they're neat
helps add a little something to its design
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Ceridran on May 12, 2016, 03:17:22 PM
shoulder pads are a nice nod to NormNavi
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Geno on May 12, 2016, 06:56:36 PM
While I see that making the design as basic as possible is an important design choice, it's also good to keep the refrence to NormalNavi intact. Making them too basic will start making them look too much like someone's megaman edit OC, instead of a nod to BattleNetwork

also i think the male/female variants are already perfect

Some of the more recent edits, especially Korby's edit, look pretty good
Though, the 1 pixel wide eyes look... off. Maybe because they look fine on Astro's, Turbo's, and Galaxy's tiny heads, but not too good on a big ol' megaman size head
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: fortegigasgospel on May 12, 2016, 07:26:12 PM
Quote from: "Geno"
While I see that making the design as basic as possible is an important design choice, it's also good to keep the refrence to NormalNavi intact. Making them too basic will start making them look too much like someone's megaman edit OC, instead of a nod to BattleNetwork

also i think the male/female variants are already perfect

Some of the more recent edits, especially Korby's edit, look pretty good
Though, the 1 pixel wide eyes look... off. Maybe because they look fine on Astro's, Turbo's, and Galaxy's tiny heads, but not too good on a big ol' megaman size head
I'd also say thin out the upper portion of the leg armor a little bit, Normal Navi have thin legs until it reached the feet. While we are making it look more classic series yes I'd feel it might be worth a try to see if that might make the design more accurate while still looking decent. Of course keeping the coloring as is and not more in tune of the navi though.
Maybe
Shoulder pads = yes
Upper arms and legs = Black
Arms and legs = Blue
Hands and feet = cyan
Torso = Blue with a Cyan gem on front and cyan piece on back
Head = Korby's last one maybe?
We ARE basing it off this thing here remember, and it already has a rather bland generic look for the series.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Max on May 12, 2016, 07:43:35 PM
Korby's newest one is fine and dandy but I'm still in favour of bigger arms (and flat-colour gloves) like half my edits

Keeping the big boots is a must for classic style, if you want to move his waist upward and make him less chest that's fine by me but he's as NormalNavi as he needs to be right now any more would be pretty stupid
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 12, 2016, 08:31:53 PM
We can't have Maestro be a transliteration of NormNavi, BN designs are very different from Classic designs, which is what we're trying to do here. No skinnyness, no excessive trimmings, no shoulder pads you guys suck, needs to be
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
as blank slate/boring as possible(...), similar to Mega Man's, which is extremely simple
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Max on May 12, 2016, 08:42:51 PM
There's nothing non-classic about his shoulderpads (nearly every RM has them and his are quite like Crystalman's) or black legs (every robotmaster ever)

you just have to reach a compromise which is why i'm trying to make his arms bigger and flat colour and then i think he'll be fine
mega's jumpsuit is pretty much a huge no in my book i m o
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 12, 2016, 09:05:34 PM
I'll give you that shoulder pads have been an established design thing in Classic since forever, but Mega Man-like characters don't have said things. I'm fine with black legs/arms, but having those 2 balls on his shoulders kinda defeat the purpose of having non-covered body parts IMO.

Also yeah, I can't hide it anymore: that body design should be slightly different, the arms and forearms could be slightly bigger. And yes, flat colors pls.

At this point, I'd say Korby's latest design is pretty close to being fine by me, I guess that helmet design is just going to stick :(. Just bigger arms, no cyan trimmings in boots/arms, and maybe fully cyan body with a black outline to separate chest from waist.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Max on May 12, 2016, 09:12:55 PM
Quote from: "MusashiAA"
I'll give you that shoulder pads have been an established design thing in Classic since forever, but Mega Man-like characters don't have said things.

Bass


I think if he keeps cyan shoulders and cyan boot bottoms he doesn't have to have a cyan chest either but you know
just need korby to wrap up a final design or something and we gucci
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Gumballtoid on May 12, 2016, 09:16:00 PM
I just want his animations to be really pronounced, like "Hey, I'm the new base skin, but I still walk like Mega Man so you can tell I'm the base skin." I'm thinking his limbs should probably be big enough to accommodate that.

He should be on the simpler side, but at the same time he should be a little more interesting than Astro Mega Man. He ought to look like he came out of the first Mega Man game, I guess.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: MusashiAA on May 12, 2016, 09:21:43 PM
Bass also has Wily's hair shape as part of his helmet, so that's as silly as you can get.

But yeah, I guess Korby's last design is kinda ok already. Gumball is right tho, his limbs ought to have the right proportions to fit Mega Man's walking and firing animation style. I'd say he should look like he came out of MM9 instead (har har v5): a very simple and neutral design, but still kinda "modern" for the day and age he was built in.
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: KeryoWolfe on July 21, 2016, 08:30:50 PM
I have to go back to Riu's design. I am heavily in favor of the main character being the gender of your choice. I also think that the "Other" gender should be the faceless version, as to add a mystery element to it. and to round it out, I think Dr. Light should ask A La Pokemon if you're a boy, a girl, or something mysterious...
Title: Re: Changing the Base Skin: Giving the Tournament Robot a Fa
Post by: Russel on July 22, 2016, 09:25:04 PM
v5 has Maestro as a new base skin.

Moved to closed.