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Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Bugs/Suggestions => MM8BDM Discussion => Closed => Topic started by: JaxOf7 on August 03, 2016, 07:38:44 PM

Title: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: JaxOf7 on August 03, 2016, 07:38:44 PM
So Laser Trident is kind of underwhelming.
Tricky speeding up mechanic for something that's just a flat 20 damage and also rips at a distance.
14 shots. Fire Storm Rate of Fire, Fire Storm damage.
Oh and it pierces Leaf Shield, Skull Barrier, Junk Shield, Jewel Satellite, Mirror Buster, and Proto Shield I guess.

Figured since it speeds up and starts to rip as it goes, what if it also did more damage as it goes?
Then you got another true ranged weapon, which MM8BDM has always had trouble getting...

Anyway here's code.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: Korby on August 04, 2016, 07:09:35 AM
Laser Trident originally did more damage as it traveled in earlier versions.
We decided not to go with it because it's not very clear, difficult to convey using Trident's existing graphics, and was flat out too strong.

Laser Trident as it exists has a bit of a learning curve because of its strange movement, but when people get the hang of it, it's the fastest projectile in the game and can five-hit people. Seems alright to me.
If it turns out it's too weak we'll likely buff it in some way, but I doubt it would be in the proposed manner. If we DID go with this, it'd probably only add up once after a while instead of increasing linearly.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: JaxOf7 on August 04, 2016, 04:52:45 PM
Ah, so you tried it, that is interesting.

And I am glad you're not pointing to the shield piercing as a main strength, was worried about that can of worms.

Kinda figured "more speed on the same object = more damage" was basic knowledge that could be gathered from physics.
Like how swinging an axe does more damage than tapping a target with an axe.
That's kind of also why a flat damage increase on a gradually speeding object really wouldn't make sense. That's also just more complex to remember: "after a certain speed, damage bonus" vs "more speed, more damage".
Honestly, the fact that it starts ripping after a distance is more complicated and less common sense than this.
As for conveyance... while i honestly think it's already pretty clear, afterimages after it speeds up could help show something's up.
Though overall, MM8BDM already has far more complex weapons than this.

Anyway, on speed, while a slow projectile balance-wise is weaker than a fast projectile, they each have their own utility
A slow projectile: denies area for longer.
A fast projectile: resolves quicker (requires less predicition, harder to dodge)

Laser trident's perks as a fast projectile are essentially nullified by its clear startup.
And it's too weak to function as a good slow projectile.
Out of the weapons sea
I just wish Laser Trident wouldn't be
the worst of both worlds.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: CutmanMike on September 12, 2016, 08:37:00 PM
I would like more public opinions on this before I push for the change.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: Xhatahx on September 12, 2016, 09:50:09 PM
For such a fast projectile, Laser Trident is only useful on stationary targets.
I decided to plot the distance traveled by Metal Blade and Laser Trident if they were fired at the same time. Although it takes only 14 tics for Traser Lident to overtake Bletal Made, at that point both projectiles have traveled about 530 units, which is about 16,6 blocks, which is quite long.
And because Laser Trident is in the end twice as fast as Metal Blade, it spends half as much time inside players, and therefore deals half damage. The damage divided by speed of each of the weapons, essentially damage per distance, are 0,35 for Metal Blade and 0,256 for Laser Trident.

tl;dr: Metal Blade is better than Laser Trident.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: JaxOf7 on September 13, 2016, 04:41:18 AM
Quote from: Xhatahx on September 12, 2016, 09:50:09 PM
Laser Trident is in the end twice as fast as Metal Blade, it spends half as much time inside players, and therefore deals half damage

(click to show/hide)
Laser Trident is flat 20 damage right now.

To offer a bit more perspective on why Laser Trident is bad.
Consider Fire Storm.
Fire Storm has 28 shot ammo. It fires a 20 damage shot every 16 tics, the same dps as megabuster actually. But it's fairly decent because the projectiles are fast, large, do hitstun, and firestorm gives hugging damage.
Laser Trident has 14 shot ammo. It fires a 20 damage shot every 16 tics. The projectiles are large and do hitstun. Laser Trident starts off slow so you see it coming, and it needs range to start ripping; ripping itself being a fairly situational property, with better rippers existing. Laser Trident pierces shields, uh, yay.
Title: Re: [Suggestion] Laser Trident Ranged Damage Buff
Post by: Russel on September 13, 2016, 07:36:36 AM
My only real comment is ripping isn't a situational property.

The fact of whether or not a projectile should rip would logically be a design decision made based on what the weapon would do. Simply adding +RIPPER to something like Fire Storm immediately makes it stronger, even in 1-on-1 scenarios since said damage is then multiplied by the number of times that one projectile strikes the player as it passes through. The number of times it strikes a player is based on the player's speed, the angle of their movement, projectile's speed, its angle of movement, and its size.

This is why they tell you not to back into Metal Blades if you play duel. You'll take extra damage because the Metal Blades are simply hitting you more times.

Depending on what you attach it to, it could easily triple that projectile's strength.

In the situation of Laser Trident being ripper, it was a decision to attempt to keep the ripping properties it had in Mega Man 9 without giving it too much in terms of close range power. The problem with such a thought, however, is that it renders the ripping pretty much unusable in most scenarios simply due to how it works.


Laser Trident currently deals 20 damage. The reasoning behind this decision was because, theoretically speaking, it previously would have been stronger than Silver Tomahawk if put in the hands of someone who could use it correctly.
During testing, before a couple of hits to its speed and a buff to its ramp up, it was referred to as "delayed hitscan" and dealt 30 damage.
Needless to say it was ridiculous.

I really wish it wasn't brought down to 20 damage simply because that puts it below what Fire Storm used to be in terms of usability. If the damage were to be brought up by like 5 and the amount of time required to ramp up reduced, I think the weapon would be A-Ok.


I also modified both of Jax's posts because code in spoiler tags only shows one line at a time, which is fairly difficult to read.