Cutstuff Forum
Gaming => Mega Man Discussion => Topic started by: MusashiAA on October 27, 2010, 06:47:37 PM
-
This is something I've been questioning myself for quite some time. Let's put it this way:
A Mega Man game, following the classic "Jump-N-Shoot" gameplay formula, is basically a game where you jump from platforms to platforms, avoiding pits and hazards, and kill any enemy that blocks your path to the end of the stage. The goal of the game, aside from clearing it, is to defeat all the bosses and copy their abilities. Said abilities are either more powerful than your default plasma gun, or more useful in certain situations you may encounter in later stages.
Long story short, the main attractive is the Weapon Copy System. The Zero, ZX and Legends series have their own approach to this, but in the end it's all about obtaining a wide arrange of weapons/abilities at your dispense.
In most MM games before X4/Legends 2, you were encouraged by the game to use those weapons, since later stages/bosses required more firepower (which you already had/ needed in order to get there). When X5 came, the games seemed to make more emphasis in the default weapons, save for a few weapons that were actually mandatory to just pass a certain stage. This is also a trend that's taking over the more recent Jump-N-Shoot games, where at least 3 out of 9 weapons are handy and fun to use.
So my questions are: isn't going for buster-only runs, missing the whole point of playing MM games? If a whole MM game can be beaten with the default weapon, wouldn't that make it the most powerful/useful weapon in the game, therefore the cheapest way to clear the game? If you're able to refill your other weapons with drops, why do people stick with the buster, when there are more efficient ways to clear a stage?
-
I would assume they try for buster only runs to challenge themselves, unless you're implying something else that I didn't pick up.
-
Buster runs are more of a challenge. The emphasis is still on the weaponry as it's rather hard to beat the game without them, but once you've beat the game about 10 times it's nice to try something different.
-
Well. I can speak for myself when I said. I'm completely OCD about stockpiling ammo. Even if it's easily refillable. No matter how many times I beat the game, I still conserve ammo for the just in case I know won't happen.
That being said, I still use the weapons if it's applicable for better success.
-
@Korby
In games like MM10 or MM5 or X5 or some Zero/ZX series save for Z1, it seemed like the only useful thing in the game was your default weapon given to you at the start. It seemed as if you can beat the game without the help of the rest of your weapons, save for a few moments. This means that a buster-only run, in the "Jump-N-Shoot" games, is the easiest way to clear the game.
I'm implying the lack of importance given to copy weapons recently in both official AND fan games. Instead, we're given tweaks to the default weapon/abilities.
Why removing the slide and Charge Shot? Capcom could've just made a harder stage layout/stronger enemies, but they didn't. Another trend is: most popular MM games = usefulness of the default weapon in said games.
-
Personally, I like the removal of the charge shot and slide. I went back and played MM5 and MM6 after playing MM9 and MM10 and I found that having no slide and no charge made things simpler without detracting from the experience. However, I feel MM9 put more emphasis on alternate weapons than ever. MM10 could have if the weapons didn't all suck (except triple blade).
-
Why removing the slide and Charge Shot? Capcom could've just made a harder stage layout/stronger enemies, but they didn't. Another trend is: most popular MM games = usefulness of the default weapon in said games.
If I recall, both slide and Charge shot made stage transversing and boss battles rather... easy. Mega Man being about difficulty ((I assume...)) was what made fans enjoy it so... If Slide was never implemented into MM3, Then a good portion of the bosses would of gave you a harder time. If Charge shot was never implemented into the other titles, then despite simple stage transversing, bosses would of been slightly difficult to beat, therefore actually giving obtained weapons a use and possibly a bigger use in environment if enough time was given to design them that way
But since they were IN the game, the weapons just get the cold shoulder while the Mega Buster is the next Metal Blade. Yes they COULD of made stage development harder, but really the only thing hard about the mega man stages were the enemies themselves since they gave off that feeling of intimidation ((big eye anyone?)).
-
Well. I can speak for myself when I said. I'm completely OCD about stockpiling ammo. Even if it's easily refillable. No matter how many times I beat the game, I still conserve ammo for the just in case I know won't happen.
That being said, I still use the weapons if it's applicable for better success.
This.
And the fact ofcourse that beating a game with buster only is an awesome challenge.
And about the sliding/charge buster... i like those, it made the games a bit more easy but it made you more cautious of when to release the fire button.
(also the fact that the charge buster is one of (mm7) burst man's weaknesses)
The sliding just looked cool :cool: and it was used as a feature in order to beat some stages/bosses.
-
this is why megaman 4 is one of my favourite games in the series, almost all of the weapons are useful and fun to use too! they removed slide and charge shot because they seem to think that megaman 2 is the greatest game they ever made. i think that was a huge step backwards on capcoms part, slide and charge shot were both fun to use too! it's as if capcom are scared to add new game mechanics because it won't be "retro enough"!
-
they removed slide and charge shot because they seem to think that megaman 2 is the greatest game they ever made.
Not that I hate MM2, but it's not the greatest MM game ever made to begin with (I personally think MM3, along with X1 hold that position).
If I recall, both slide and Charge shot made stage transversing and boss battles rather... easy. Mega Man being about difficulty (I assume...) was what made fans enjoy it so...
Well, how do you think that easyness can be solved? A trickier stage layout and stronger enemies/tweaking the Charge Shot. That could've been easily made. And you're right about what MM games are about: difficulty and how you solve it.
...the only thing hard about the mega man stages were the enemies themselves since they gave off that feeling of intimidation (big eye anyone?).
Nnnnnooooo... the stage layout is really important, since it can also determine the type of enemy that can be implemented into the game to make things more difficult. The stage layout is not only the look of a stage: it's the enviroment itself (platform-ladder-pit-hazard positioning, stage gimmicks...)
A MM game can be very different if the developing process follows the "design neat and useful weapons/abilities->make hard stages that encourage the player to use those useful weapons we designed to beat it" formula, instead of "make hard but beatable stages->design weapons that make certain parts of a stage easier". I believe MM5-6-10, X5-8 and the ZX series were made using the last method, making less emphasis in copy weapon usefulness.
However, I feel MM9 put more emphasis on alternate weapons than ever.
Remember MM1-2? I absolutely agree with you on that...
I went back and played MM5 and MM6 after playing MM9 and MM10 and I found that having no slide and no charge made things simpler without detracting from the experience.
...but not on that. Longer stages/smarter bosses would've easily compesated the addition of the slide, while stronger enemies/nerfing would've solved the Charge Shot issue. Capcom's obsession with "keeping it retro" didn't need to eliminate Classic Mega Man's most famous abilities, and they still did.
"Let's make a new MM game, but without the slide and the Charge Shot" is pretty much saying "let's hack MM2 and add new weapons". Don't get me wrong: I love the return of the 8-bit graphic style, but damn...
-
i did love the return of 8-bit at first, and i guess the lack of slide and charge makes it more accesable for newcomers to the series!
but i think they were really milking the whole 8-bit craze come MM10, don't get me wrong i loved that game and the stages were awesome (bosses were pretty weird but oh well), but sometimes i think it would have been better had they made in in MM7 style, or even 2.5D! it just felt like a hack of MM9 really with new stuff added in. (this is also true for most of the classic series but it doesn't feel like it in the same way, can't explain why)
still, without MM9 or 10, mike may not have been inspired to make MM8BDM!
-
X5-8.
If you really believe that X6 had the 'best" placement of enemies and stage design regarding difficulty, remind me to throw a few drill bombs your way when I see you in a Death Match :|
Well ok... maybe three of them were actually good ((especially Metal Shark player)) but I can't say it's the best example for the element(s) your referring to. Maybe I should introduce you to HideOfBeast, the dude who tortured himself with X6 enough that he developed a relationship with it :ugeek:
-
X5-8.
If you really believe that X6 had the 'best" placement of enemies and stage design regarding difficulty, remind me to throw a few drill bombs your way when I see you in a Death Match :|
If I do, by all means go ahead. You'll do it anyways :3
X6 was a convoluted piece of game. Barely playable. One of the hardest/most broken MM games I've ever played. STILL, THAT'S THE ESSENCE OF THE SHADOW ARMOR+ULTIMATE BUSTER, RITE?. Broken game requires broken armor. Which also brings me to another issue: later X games gave more importance to the completion of the armor, but X6 goes beyond this in the most beyondest beyondness that can be achieved, and more. You literally NEED the Shadow Armor to proceed. Otherwises, you can't. You will ragequit, no questions asked.
BUT HOLY MATOYA, THAT GUY IS INSANELY MAD! He's my hero from now on. Screw you, Dr. House.
-
i did love the return of 8-bit at first, and i guess the lack of slide and charge makes it more accesable for newcomers to the series!
but i think they were really milking the whole 8-bit craze come MM10, don't get me wrong i loved that game and the stages were awesome (bosses were pretty weird but oh well), but sometimes i think it would have been better had they made in in MM7 style, or even 2.5D! it just felt like a hack of MM9 really with new stuff added in. (this is also true for most of the classic series but it doesn't feel like it in the same way, can't explain why)
still, without MM9 or 10, mike may not have been inspired to make MM8BDM!
I totally agree. MM9 was great. MM10 was like "It's good, but can we have a good Mega Man game with good graphics?" Even the bad box art was just "meh" as opposed to the completely unexpected and hilarious MM9 box art. I laughed for 5 minutes when I saw that thing! MM10's, I just chuckled for 5 seconds.
-
but X6 goes beyond this in the most beyondest beyondness that can be achieved, and more. You literally NEED the Shadow Armor to proceed. Otherwises, you can't. You will ragequit, no questions asked.
Yeah and to get that armor, you need to go on a unnecessary rescue mission for reploids in X6's environment. Oh and don't forget the Nightmares which pop out almost every 2 seconds in half of those stages. Pray to Light- ... sorry I forgot Dr. Light would be considered the devil here.... uh...
Pray to... Toyota(?) that they don't turn that reploid maverick otherwise you'll have to reset because:
1. That reploid contained a part
2. That reploid contained a part that you actually need to assemble another type of armor JUST to save another reploid in another place thats impossible without it.
Look, there's nothing wrong with going beyond the limits of difficulty or complexity (("I wanna be the guy The Movie: The Game anyone?")), but unfairness and luck should NOT be the elements implemented into games. Players themselves should only psychologically believe that until they mess around with the stage enough to see improvement prior to the hassle they have to deal with. Gate's Lab II is a perfect example, which Hide said he saw improvement to progress through and planned properly unlike Ground Scaravich , which involved luck and "Cat and Mouse" tactics.
-
I get the feeling from a lot of game companies now that they either do REALLY old school graphics or 3D/3D pre-renders for new 2D games. Or some other weird new-age graphics style.
The art of 16-bit graphics has been lost except for a few games here and there. I honestly feel like it's too difficult for them to make. I'd love a new MegaMan 7 styled game, but I doubt we will ever see it : (
-
the megaman 10 box art was like "oh look they did that again"
megaman X6 was a terrible game. hardcore X fans will try to tell you "oh you just hate it because it's too hard for you!" thats true, but it's hard because of piss poor level design. plus the fact they didn't even bother translating the cutscenes and much like MMX5 it just felt like a hack of MMX4
-
the megaman 10 box art was like "oh look they did that again"
megaman X6 was a terrible game. hardcore X fans will try to tell you "oh you just hate it because it's too hard for you!" thats true, but it's hard because of piss poor level design. plus the fact they didn't even bother translating the cutscenes and much like MMX5 it just felt like a hack of MMX4
Thing is that... X6 was never suppose to happen :|
-
It seems Capcom forgot to use a condom!
I actually kinda liked X5, but that's really only because I love having more than one armor.
-
...and much like MMX5 it just felt like a hack of MMX4
I have played the living hell of the three PSX MMX games: believe me, they are different. Can't tell you why, but they are.
On topic, while we're discussing the purpose of buster-only runs, a common issue is brought upon us:
Are we really sure when we say that certain weapons aren't useful? I used to say that about Dust Crusher and Gyro Attack and Gemini Laser, and now I use them more often than the buster. Hell, I used to think Top Spin sucked. How wrong I was :3
-
I know when I used to play a long time ago, I never switched weapons. The main reason being cause I wanted to save all the energy for the boss fight, and didn't want to waste any before then.
My oldest brother likes using buster only for the most part, for a couple of reasons. Some fights are ridiculously easy with weapons, so the buster makes it a bit more of a challenge/a cooler fight. Also, buster is the default weapon and thus EVERYTHING can be hit by it, whereas some weapons are completely ineffective against some enemies. Plus it's fast with rapid fire and has infinite ammo.
Now when I play, I like switching weapons, as a way to find interesting and easier ways through levels. This became really apparent when they released 9, where not only they had a bunch of useful weapons but the time attack mode, which had you figuring out what combo of weapons could get you through a level the fastest.
-
This became really apparent when they released 9...
Remember MM8? Flame Sword? Flash Bomb? Ice Wave? Homing Sniper? Tornado Hold?. They're all useful, and I learned that in my very first run through MM8.
Maybe the buster-only run does give a sensation of challenge, but it should be that way if by challenge you mean "harder boss fights". But the buster doesn't run out of ammo, it's fast and, in some games, chargeable if you didn't like the base AT and wanted more firepower from it. Which is why I keep saying that the Charge Shot needs some tweaking (or probably nerfing. Some hackers lowered the Charge Shot's AT to 2, instead of the normal 3).
MM4GB's Charge Shot is a good example of a tweak. A longer charge time can also be a good example.
-
Oh for sure, MM8 really gives me a sensation of not only useful weapons, but useful in an interesting way. Tornado Hold particularly as a vertical-bomb-hover thingy.
What I meant to emphasize was MM9's time attack mode. Sorry about that : (