Cutstuff Forum

Gaming => The Ghoul's Forest => Topic started by: Wartorn on October 29, 2009, 05:13:37 PM

Title: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Wartorn on October 29, 2009, 05:13:37 PM
First off, I just got around to play V2B5 online, decent stuff Cutman :)

Buuuut there is some stuff that isn't really decent; namely the Hunter's balance. Mainly, back a few versions ago, pretty much the only thing the Hunter class had was his over-powered Fire [which is still over-powered btw], super-accurate Railgun-like thing, and annoying close ranged shotgun, and, of course, his speed. When the new abilities were introduced [Anti-Creeper thing, Anti-Sjas following thing, super speed hax respectively], this just seriously threw his balance out of the fucking window, and there is no point playing anything else on the Humans side, since the Hunter seems like he's got everything goin' on for every situation.

I'm not proposing that you should cut the new abilities, but they really do require some attention. First off, the Anti-Creeper fire thing is fine, but it needs a limit. Last night, I saw 8 guys get dominated as a Creeper by a single Hunter, because all he was spamming was Fire-related attacks. This really could use a delay in usage.

Next up, the spikes aren't that annoying and are sometimes kind of useless against a good Sjas/Jitter, but the Creeper falls kind of short of countering it with the spikes' range. Not big of an issue though.

Lastly, and this is the biggest issue, the teleportation magic. The Hunter is already ridiculously fast [One of the fastest class out of everything else] and the fact that there is no delay/decrease in speed really does not help. My suggestion for remedying this is to severely slow down his speed for a couple of seconds, and include a delay as well after using it. [Or really, one or the other.]

That pretty much sums up my only thoughts on the new abilities. You don't have to agree with it all, but that's just how I feel about it.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on October 29, 2009, 05:21:31 PM
The hunter's lighting magic attack is ridicoulous becasue you can annoy some enemies, especially jitterskull with that teleportation magic. Example:
*Jitter charges at hunter, hunter just uses the magic attack to dodge it, jitter says WTF and charges again, hunter annoys him with magic, and all over*
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on October 29, 2009, 05:40:41 PM
The new hunter is no where near his old power. Fire arrows are strong, but there are incredibly hard to hit a jitterskull/creeper/choke with. A creeper just has to make sure he doesn't get hit. He ain't all that powerfull, when an arrow is loaded he walks slower than the cyborg and between firing there is a reasonable delay. It's just that when he hits he hits hard. I don't mind nerfing the magic attacks as long as you don't touch his speed. Because that's what he needs to survive.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on October 29, 2009, 05:59:07 PM
Hmm... I didnt get a decent fight out of a hunter yet because of all the JITTERRAPE!!!!! :P

But, seriously now, the teleportation thing does seem a bit... spammable. Small delay to it, they could just teleport to your back and backstab you with a dirty lightning arrow (or so i assume), if any still have the skill left, as they still rely on ice.
Speaking of ice, the spread was way smaller then expected, but on decent range i can only hope it wont drain 150 hp in one go, rather a big amount.

Meh, his speed is serverly annoying, but any human thankfully can be sandwitched between ghouls or caught in a corner, GVH requires more strategic thinking then you see at first glance.
And perhaps... Killing 2 or more ghouls with normal arrows should give archivement? I mean, who ever uses those? It might encourage more use.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on October 29, 2009, 06:54:36 PM
Well, I have to say I disagree with many things you said here.

First things first: Lightning arrows aren't super accurate. To the contrary: they're super innaccurate (and not many people were using it in 2b3), the only thing they're capable of hitting is a Jitter (but right after he chomps, because of the delay you actually have time to aim). Sometimes I use them against Creepers (again, in 2b3), but that's just because I think in 2b3, fire arrows were overpowered against Creeper.

Next thing, I almost never use the Ice arrows (not even in tight spaces), because I find them (honestly) a waste of ammo.

I have to agree with the fact fire is slightly overpowered even now, but it's the only thing that I can succesfully use against Sjas (because the Sjas has a too small hitbox, and because all other arrows are unefficient against him).

Now, about the magic thing: the Ice and Fire magics look more dangerous than they really are, IMHO.

Again, I haven't played alot of 2b5, so I can't say. Actually, the Hunter looked quite underpowered (but that's just because I played 2b5 once, against D'Sparil, well known for hacking in GvH).
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mati on October 29, 2009, 08:40:48 PM
I think hunter needs his magics limited. Like I dunno... he can use it 5 times then he have to stand to recharge ammo for it like cyborg. And maybe lighties arrows a bit faster.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on October 29, 2009, 08:50:58 PM
He hacks? No wonder why he spotted a creeper in the winter map, what was completely white, ON THE WHITE HILLS, probaly the usual sprite being replaced by something else, well, not technically hacking, but cheating.
Damn, i wish ST had a detection method if anything on the files where different, that they couldnt join, and obvious proof in the server log.

Anyway, i cant recall who said lightning arrows accurate, but indeed, they're only good if you can aim like a god or do it on a Jitterskull (or tight spaces), meh, atleast its more difficult to pull off then ice.
Hmm... And ice as well as fire are more dangerous (for me atleast), as anyone could easily hit you with it on a bad spot or when stuck.

As for limiting, if there's gonna be any, why not make it mana? Like the cyborg's fuel, could recharge, but shouldnt be too fast. Magic is serverely strong, even if its the only good thing he has.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Ivory on October 29, 2009, 09:39:08 PM
A mana system would be lovely, it also gives more use to the under appreciated normal arrows.

Quote from: "ThaMarine"
First things first: Lightning arrows aren't super accurate. To the contrary: they're super innaccurate (and not many people were using it in 2b3), the only thing they're capable of hitting is a Jitter (but right after he chomps, because of the delay you actually have time to aim). Sometimes I use them against Creepers (again, in 2b3), but that's just because I think in 2b3, fire arrows were overpowered against Creeper.

I'm get I abit annoyed at the wrong terms being used. Lightning arrows ARE super accurate. It's a railgun essentially after all. Your complaining more about the time it takes to use it, I think. None the less, I rarely ever see people use Thunder Arrows right. You don't aim at where the Ghoul is, you aim at where there going to go. It's all about prediction, same way you use Chokes Blood  Ball efficiently. Also never trust the crosshair, everything tends to fire about two or three crosshairs under the crosshair, sometimes I even get it bottom right of the crosshair. Doing some testing, it is in fact bottom right of the crosshair. Know these facts, predict the movements, and Thunder Arrows have deadly Efficiency.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on October 30, 2009, 03:08:41 AM
I don't think the teleport is overpowered. It doesn't really make the hunter faster, it just makes ghouls lose track of him. Also he's not shooting while he's teleporting, so that removes a big threat. Teleporting is a completely new method of locomotion for humans, so I suggest allowing a little time to learn how to defeat it.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on October 30, 2009, 08:04:36 AM
Quote from: "Ivory"
I'm get I abit annoyed at the wrong terms being used. Lightning arrows ARE super accurate. It's a railgun essentially after all. Your complaining more about the time it takes to use it, I think. None the less, I rarely ever see people use Thunder Arrows right. You don't aim at where the Ghoul is, you aim at where there going to go. It's all about prediction, same way you use Chokes Blood  Ball efficiently. Also never trust the crosshair, everything tends to fire about two or three crosshairs under the crosshair, sometimes I even get it bottom right of the crosshair. Doing some testing, it is in fact bottom right of the crosshair. Know these facts, predict the movements, and Thunder Arrows have deadly Efficiency.

Accuracy is measured by the percentage of how many arrows have hit out of how many have you fired, which is for lightning, terribly low.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on October 30, 2009, 12:02:19 PM
Quote from: "ThaMarine"
Quote from: "Ivory"
I'm get I abit annoyed at the wrong terms being used. Lightning arrows ARE super accurate. It's a railgun essentially after all. Your complaining more about the time it takes to use it, I think. None the less, I rarely ever see people use Thunder Arrows right. You don't aim at where the Ghoul is, you aim at where there going to go. It's all about prediction, same way you use Chokes Blood  Ball efficiently. Also never trust the crosshair, everything tends to fire about two or three crosshairs under the crosshair, sometimes I even get it bottom right of the crosshair. Doing some testing, it is in fact bottom right of the crosshair. Know these facts, predict the movements, and Thunder Arrows have deadly Efficiency.

Accuracy is measured by the percentage of how many arrows have hit out of how many have you fired, which is for lightning, terribly low.
On the other hand, if you measure accuracy by the amount of spread you get at long range (the inherent precision of the weapon), lightning is perfectly accurate.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on October 30, 2009, 02:42:28 PM
Quote from: "Qent"
On the other hand, if you measure accuracy by the amount of spread you get at long range (the inherent precision of the weapon), lightning is perfectly accurate.

Isn't that recoil?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on October 30, 2009, 02:57:16 PM
Quote from: "ThaMarine"
Quote from: "Qent"
On the other hand, if you measure accuracy by the amount of spread you get at long range (the inherent precision of the weapon), lightning is perfectly accurate.

Isn't that recoil?
No. Recoil is the amount of "kick" caused by firing the weapon. The only GvH weapon with recoil is the machinegun.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2009, 05:09:10 PM
Eh, as for the OP I agree in some ways but disagree in others.
(Sorry, this is going to be a long one.)

I find the new teleport ability pretty much unnecessary. As someone who loves to play as the hunter, I found that it really actually hindered my movement rather than enhancing it because it doesn't allow for floor-hugging as with the jitter... (which is a good thing, don't get me wrong...) Accidental teleporting into obstacles is pretty easy to do, this can actually make you a sitting duck for a jitter or sjas. Not only that, but you need to have lightning arrows equipped to use the teleport ability, which, as mentioned before, are only used for certain situations, not really ones in which you're being chased by a ghoul close range, which is the only time I can think of that teleporting would be useful.

Ice arrows are one of my favorites, actually. Using ice at close range means instant death for ghouls almost all of the time with good accuracy. However, if you miss, you're screwed. A fun gamble, IMO.

Fire arrows don't seem that overpowered to me, except in the case of creepers. As far as I know there's no way to make the damage of the arrow conditional based on what it's hitting, and even if there was, it wouldn't make sense. I don't really know what to make of them in this case, so that's pretty much all I have to say about that.

What I think it all comes down to is, every class has its exploits. I mean, this happens in any game with different classes, look at the complaints the creators and programmers of MMORPGs get.

A good player of any class can be tough to beat, and yes, there are technically moments in which some things may be regarded as "unfair", but the whole point is to play and have fun, and if we can't look past some of the little things, it becomes hard to do this. I'm not saying "no more updates, this is perfect" or "the game is perfectly balanced". It's just when it comes to all things being considered, we're all different. I mean, look just in this thread. Some people have said certain arrows (Ice and Lightning, namely) are fantastic while others have called them useless or awkward to handle, we've all got different opinions and ideas of how it should work in our heads, and there's no way to assimilate all of them. It never hurts to share your ideas, just don't get upset if Cutty decides he doesn't want to use them.

Oh, one last thing. If you're going to make a point, please, PLEASE use proper grammar. It just looks so much better. Here's a quick lesson, write it down:

You're = You are (with the exception of sentence endings or other like phrases. "You're a cool guy." is correct, while "What a nice person you're." is incorrect.)
Your = Implies possession. For example, "Hey Jim, you left your shovel over here!" Is correct, while "Hey Jim! Your an idiot!" is incorrect.

There = Implies location. For example, "It's over there." Is correct.
Their = Implies possession. For example, "The ball landed in their field." Is correct.
They're = Literally means "they are". For example "They're a bunch of jerks!" Is correct. (Same rule applies as "you're, no end of sentence use or anything similar.)

It's = Literally means IT IS. DOES NOT IMPLY POSSESSION. For example, "It's the best place to eat in town!" Is correct.
Its = Implies possession. "That boat is nice, but its sail is torn." Is correct.

Phew. That took a while, you'd better appreciate that.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on October 30, 2009, 05:12:25 PM
I find that ice spikes could last a little longer because lasting about a second isnt going to shake a ghoul off your tail because creeper can jump over most of it (or simply move around it in some cases), choke can eaisily jump over it with his speed, jitterskull wouldn't be too effected because he has 150 health and sjas will just fly over it (but thats more about hight).
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2009, 06:01:17 PM
Quote from: "Possesed"
I find that ice spikes could last a little longer because lasting about a second isnt going to shake a ghoul off your tail because creeper can jump over most of it (or simply move around it in some cases), choke can eaisily jump over it with his speed, jitterskull wouldn't be too effected because he has 150 health and sjas will just fly over it (but thats more about hight).
i think you must be a close to a ghoul to make this!
but is too dangerous! single way is the hunter is very fast and can easy avoid to be killed :)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on October 30, 2009, 07:05:25 PM
Quote from: "Domithan"
Oh, one last thing. If you're going to make a point, please, PLEASE use proper grammar. It just looks so much better. Here's a quick lesson, write it down:

You're = You are (with the exception of sentence endings or other like phrases. "You're a cool guy." is correct, while "What a nice person you're." is incorrect.)
Your = Implies possession. For example, "Hey Jim, you left your shovel over here!" Is correct, while "Hey Jim! Your an idiot!" is incorrect.

There = Implies location. For example, "It's over there." Is correct.
Their = Implies possession. For example, "The ball landed in their field." Is correct.
They're = Literally means "they are". For example "They're a bunch of jerks!" Is correct. (Same rule applies as "you're, no end of sentence use or anything similar.)

It's = Literally means IT IS. DOES NOT IMPLY POSSESSION. For example, "It's the best place to eat in town!" Is correct.
Its = Implies possession. "That boat is nice, but its sail is torn." Is correct.

Phew. That took a while, you'd better appreciate that.

What your saying it's totaly correct. People need too use proper grammer if there making a post about they're idea.

That being said, i agree with Qent. People don't have proper tactics yet.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on October 30, 2009, 07:13:50 PM
Are you mocking me? T_T
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on October 30, 2009, 07:50:37 PM
Ok I'll take his teleport away and just make it a damaging attack like the other two (a single bolt of lightning infront of him maybe). Also reduce the fire spin and ice damage. Originally I just wanted his attacks to be slightly different when you hit altfire, I guess I got a bit overboard!
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on October 30, 2009, 08:12:56 PM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
Ok I'll take his teleport away and just make it a damaging attack like the other two (a single bolt of lightning infront of him maybe). Also reduce the fire spin and ice damage. Originally I just wanted his attacks to be slightly different when you hit altfire, I guess I got a bit overboard!

So much for the Thunder God Teleport.

Fire magic looks more suicidal than effective. You ever seen a moving creeper hit with it? All it manages to do is increase his speed, and the fire spin doesn't have a good radius on moving targets. The slightest damage is asking for a rape (jitters can't stand still long enough to hurt them, and more than likely sjas are out of range).

Ice spikes should last longer. All it manages to do is work in tight maps.

Give Hunters sith lightning.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on October 30, 2009, 09:26:11 PM
Quote from: "Mobius"
Give Hunters sith lightning.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: TERRORsphere on October 30, 2009, 09:40:54 PM
I think the Cyborg should be faster and the Hunter should be slow. The hunter can do 1 hit kills. The Cyborg can spam. The marine is really weak and should be the fastest.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: White on October 30, 2009, 09:59:22 PM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
The marine is really weak and should be the fastest.

^
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^, Damnit! Thankyou!
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on October 31, 2009, 12:27:30 AM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
Ok I'll take his teleport away and just make it a damaging attack like the other two (a single bolt of lightning infront of him maybe). Also reduce the fire spin and ice damage. Originally I just wanted his attacks to be slightly different when you hit altfire, I guess I got a bit overboard!
Please just give the teleport a chance. It potentially has some neat applications, but I haven't seen anyone who's really good at it. They might as well be running instead. At this point we have no idea whether teleporting is OP or not.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2009, 03:28:23 AM
Quote from: "Qent"
[
Please just give the teleport a chance. It potentially has some neat applications, but I haven't seen anyone who's really good at it. They might as well be running instead. At this point we have no idea whether teleporting is OP or not.


I hate name dropping, but D Sparilwtfever is pretty good with the hunter class.. having fought this person myself numerous of times. He/she/it can utilize teleport with efficiency.

Quote from: "possessed"
Sith lightning

Fuck yeah
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on October 31, 2009, 05:42:49 AM
Oh... him. Normally I'm just hoping he's not shooting me. D:
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Robjoe on October 31, 2009, 05:45:27 AM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
Ok I'll take his teleport away and just make it a damaging attack like the other two (a single bolt of lightning infront of him maybe). Also reduce the fire spin and ice damage. Originally I just wanted his attacks to be slightly different when you hit altfire, I guess I got a bit overboard!
Aw, no, keep the teleport! It has potential, just everyone is bitching and whining because they haven't switched away from Fire arrows to study the metagame of the Lightning magic. Also, a Star Wars attack on the Hunter = LolNo.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on October 31, 2009, 08:35:30 AM
teleport is a bit useless because you can with lightning and because the most likely reason you are using teleport if because a ghoul is chasing you and lightning is useless with close encounters.

Also if the ghoul tailing you is good he is most likely to pick up where you teleported and continue the chase. What was the tactics intended to go with the teleport? Evading a jitter may work but if he uses a mouse (most will be) he will just turn around then crunch you (because you are stunned after teleport unless you are really lucky and the tiny damage that emits when you teleport manages to dispatch the jitter)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on October 31, 2009, 10:21:13 AM
Quote from: "Mobius"
Give Hunters sith lightning.

Yes!
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on October 31, 2009, 01:47:08 PM
Quote from: "Possesed alters what Mobius"
Give Hunters sith lightning. And i will give over £9000 and will get you everything you want (even a lifesize version of cutman)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on October 31, 2009, 05:33:01 PM
My idea is becoming popular. xD Sith lightning would be the ultimate compensation for lightning arrow usage.

If you increase the range of the teleport than I don't see it being useless. You still have to worry about your height in relevence to your timing and any obstacle that might impede you. The slightest, and I've experienced this, the slightest inch of wall stops you dead in your tracks. It's actually effective against sjas and creepers.

We can't make one ability good for all situations (as I believe Hunters were intended to be a good generalist class, but with specialized utilities). With jump tricks, platforms, and some timing, you can evade a chase. Jitters have to rely purely on glimpses of sight to estimate where to chump. With their slight reduce in damage radius, hunters can provide a window of opportunity to escape.

My fear is people spamming hunters with them becoming more like a tool-box class. We still have a jitter infestation.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Ivory on October 31, 2009, 09:19:36 PM
Give the teleport a break. I mean this is a beta, the first beta all these changes have been in. Then your going about screaming for change? What gives. You're not even giving Cutty a chance to tweak these changes and make them workable. Even worse beta 5 has only been about for a few days. So how about we all just calm down. Give it a chance to be tweaked a bit, THEN if it continues to be a problem it can be changed.

Sorry but I'm just getting rather annoyed at the impatience around here.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on October 31, 2009, 10:39:55 PM
Well, i've seen the rape side of the hunter, and the usual word overpowered should say enough.

But regarding details... The lightning is WAY too spammable and i've seen it happen over and over and over on a sjas, might be a tad map dependant, but in the right conditions, assuming they dont mess up, the teleport could be used repeatedly to get away and damage the ghoul. The only suggestion is to put a longer cooldown on the actual alt-fire, if thats possible.

And fire... Actually seems acceptable? Altrough creepers are still chanceless when spotted by a hunter, i havent seen it utterly destroy non-creepers.

And regarding ice, the spread is way too small! Having the spread twice or 3 times larger then currently might do, enough spread that it actually might hit a sjas hovering above you (even if it means you have to add more arrows and reduce damage to them, or so seems a good idea to me).

Cant say i've actually been hit by lightning very often, so not sure if that needs changes. But i'm sure some will resort to lightning if ice is actually spread out and fire stays the same or grows even weaker. And then i'd probaly call it overpowered if i get 2-hit in short time.
(Future suggestion: Change damage to 60/70-ish and not more? Just about enough to 2-hit Sjas, one-hit creeper, 3-hit Choke/Jitter. Completely ignore this if lightning currently does not (and shall not) do more damage then 70.)

And slightly off-topic: The new openGL settings on Oblacek SUCK! I cant play well when i cant see nor confirm what i'm looking at (or its too late). And as much as the glowing eyes in the dark sound fun, its only gonna give away a Jitterskull's position in the dark.
And bear in mind that the post was made during a HUNTARDRAPE!!!!! instead of an JITTERRAPE!!!!! :P (I couldnt resist.)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 01, 2009, 08:18:02 AM
Quote from: "CarThief"
Well, i've seen the rape side of the hunter, and the usual word overpowered should say enough.

And jitterskull isn't?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on November 01, 2009, 01:14:18 PM
I think jitter needs a nerf but the only problem is how he should be nerfed

Most ideas for nerfing like make his chomp need 2 hits to kill will just turn him from a tank to a pussy. If there was away to nerf jitter without him ending up getting owned over and over again i think it might have happened a while ago.

I know the radius has been decreased but to be honest i hardly even notice it

I still see jitters romping around the maps warping over obsticles, slowly gaining on thier prey then CHOMP! JITERAAAAAAPE!!!

Health decrease?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 01, 2009, 01:24:57 PM
Quote from: "Frits"
Quote from: "CarThief"
Well, i've seen the rape side of the hunter, and the usual word overpowered should say enough.

And jitterskull isn't?

You do realise this topic is about the hunter? Sure, He's strong, effective (and OH SO VULNERABLE), but you could make your own topic about Jitterskull, too. :P
Edit: Infact, i dare you! Its all good for the balance if everyone can find flaws and solutions to them. And i'm highly curious at the possible results.

And this kinda reminds me, what possible weakness does he possibily have against ghouls? He has arrows for every situation, his speed is unmatched, and his abilities make him an all-rounder with overpowered attacks, having him weak against certain ghouls or strategies would be nice.

Edit: Health decrease on Jitter is unacceptable, he is way too huge and takes too many hits (due to his size). A ghoul is useless if he CANNOT reach his opponent, some make that an actual strategy... But a seperate topic for Jitterskull or something might work...
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 01, 2009, 01:39:34 PM
Quote from: "CarThief"
Quote from: "Frits"
Quote from: "CarThief"
Well, i've seen the rape side of the hunter, and the usual word overpowered should say enough.

And jitterskull isn't?

You do realise this topic is about the hunter? Sure, He's strong, effective (and OH SO VULNERABLE), but you could make your own topic about Jitterskull, too. :P
Edit: Infact, i dare you! Its all good for the balance if everyone can find flaws and solutions to them. And i'm highly curious at the possible results.

And this kinda reminds me, what possible weakness does he possibily have against ghouls? He has arrows for every situation, his speed is unmatched, and his abilities make him an all-rounder with overpowered attacks, having him weak against certain ghouls or strategies would be nice.

Edit: Health decrease on Jitter is unacceptable, he is way too huge and takes too many hits (due to his size). A ghoul is useless if he CANNOT reach his opponent, some make that an actual strategy... But a seperate topic for Jitterskull or something might work...

Play him and you'll know.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 01, 2009, 02:33:52 PM
Nah, i like sticking to the ghoul side, makes creepers less annoying. Besides, not like i'd instantly rape people with hunter either, or atleast not against pro ghouls, maybe i would rape normal ones with ice arrows. (Why, just find a good spot and you could take down ANY ghoul, and an Jitterskull makes for a sitting duck frequently, too...)

Hmm... Who knows, but i'm not gonna mess with creepers even for the sake of balance. :P
Oh, and i wonder if anyone can mention a actual weakness of the hunter. Seriously, something as bad as Jitterskull being a sitting duck after attacking, or worse.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 01, 2009, 04:07:57 PM
His weakness is the same as the jitter miss = die in most cases. That and attacks need to be spot on, low fire rate, slow movement when an arrow is loaded, when surprised without an arrow loaded you die, arrow supply is gone quickly. In fact I could write a whole page of specific situations.

Also if you never play human your opinion on the other side is invalid. Because you don't have the slightest idea what it's like.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: TERRORsphere on November 01, 2009, 04:14:29 PM
Jitterskulls need 110 health, chokes need to have 150 health.

Think of 2 Jitterskulls. They both have 150 health, that's 300 health, double the firepower and they aren't easy to hit either.

Now if they were slighty slower to jitter and had let's say 115 health each then that's 230 health, still double the fire power and actually possible to land a hit.

Chokes are hard to hit because of speed but actually possible to hit them. Their attack is weak, they are the ones that need more health.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 01, 2009, 04:51:42 PM
Oh, like you know anything about Jitterskull either, or are actually good at playing it. I could call your opinion about it crap too.

Hmm... I'm not sure if an actual HP reducement would work, but as long as his attack isnt made useless, he should work fine as long as he actually gets to his target.
Guess chokes can use some HP as they are easily highly damaged on point blank or when approaching, as they just move normally, no fancy teleporting, flying, or stealthy movement.

Hmm... Not every miss equals death, but i dont think that was the main topic at all, it was about the hunter's abilities and weapons. And of course, suprise attacks are effective, altrough REGARDLESS of what side your on, wether its lightning arrow sniping or waiting at the corner with an ice arrow. Both sides can pull cheap moves, the only complaint i got is that the Hunter's cheap moves are ranged, not melee, yet with the same result: instant death. (Altrough in some cases just massive damage)

Are you capable of making this a decent discussion without resorting to insults to one's skill?
Just try to put up a good reason why said suggestions shouldnt be applied to the hunter.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on November 01, 2009, 05:16:43 PM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
Jitterskulls need 110 health, chokes need to have 150 health.
At this instant, the only thing the choke needs is his own thread.

I agree with Frits. Know your enemy. I don't remember if he's done jitter, but I can say that he knows both sides of creeper vs. hunter.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 01, 2009, 07:03:19 PM
Ah, you dont have to be the enemy to know him. If you play alot, you'll probaly notice all sorts of different tactics along the way.
I certainly dont have to be a hunter to know that if your attack messes up while getting really close to one, chances are your fried.

Thats pretty much why Jitterskull could use his HP quite well, too. Often enough to damage a human but they dont die and you end up getting shot in the face point blank before they run away, leaving you with almost no HP ussually.

I dont think it takes alot anyway to know your enemy anyway. Just mess around with the abilities a bit on your own, see what they do and your set. Altrough each player has his own method of using them, making for interesting matches.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on November 01, 2009, 07:04:34 PM
jitterskull's health is fine 150!
no need less or more! like choke!
only sjas needs some health because it's a ghoul!
like 120!
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Wartorn on November 01, 2009, 07:07:48 PM
Go away Pucy, we don't want you to threadshit on this one.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on November 01, 2009, 07:12:28 PM
not again people vs me, he commented first about hp and i commented second!
he commented about same thing! i didn't nothing wrong or maybe i commented about sjas more hp!
why me?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: TERRORsphere on November 01, 2009, 08:03:22 PM
Quote from: "pucy100"
not again people vs me, he commented first about hp and i commented second!
he commented about same thing! i didn't nothing wrong or maybe i commented about sjas more hp!
why me?
Because you provide shitty reasons and shitty comments.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 01, 2009, 08:53:50 PM
Quote from: "Wartorn"
Go away Pucy, we don't want you to threadshit on this one.

Meh, he means well but he just doesn't realize it. Cut him some (more) slack.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on November 01, 2009, 09:05:26 PM
Quote from: "pucy100"
only sjas needs some health because it's a ghoul!
like 120!
I wont insult you like some so ill say that:
#1 He has a reflection/godmode for 1 sec/ shield
#2 He is fast like hell
#3 He can fly
#4 He can be almost invisible while standing still

So no need for moving his health up. ;)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Ivory on November 01, 2009, 11:55:55 PM
Jitterskull's are fine. There is a huge difference between a good Jitterskull and  a bad Jitterskull. A bad jitterskulls are the ones that go straight for you, lunge, lunge and lunges again. and either manages to kill everyone, or die at the start of the map. Good Jitterskulls tend to be masterful tacticians. They know how the Jitterskull works inside and out, knows each level. Humans are in control, keeping jitters at bay. It tends to be that one good Jitterskull who breaks that control. Causes Humans to scatter and flee. And soon that Jitterskull won the match, all because humans lost control.

I know that all too well because I had a 2v4 match, and I was the last one alive rather quickly. Those four humans sat about camping in GvH15 at the forest. Now I couldn't get close to them, they just fired away at me. So I snuck behind them. Managed to kill one. So they all scattered. from there I just killed them one by one. I won the match. Now if I were a "Bad Jitterskull" I would have simply came charging in there and most likely would have killed myself.

People complain about jitterskulls, hunters, marines, cyborgs, creepers, sjas, ghost busters, and chokes. Finding reasons why to nerf them because they just want to have an unfair advantage? ITS RANGED VS MELEE! You say the jitterskull should get nerfed HP? Yet your also the ones who get so sit far away shooting at ghouls from long distances? [sarcasm]sounds fair to me [/sarcasm]
Another Reason. GvH can be played with any amount of players. However I rarely ever see anyone consider smaller matches. 2v2-4v4 range. Jitterskull with 110hp?  Stop to consider how classes work when you don't have massive 6v6+ brawls. They need to be functional in a 1v1 just as much as a whatever else. If you want to nerf a class, and suddenly when there's less players, it has a massive unbalance. That's also a problem.
Point remains, Jitterskull is fine. People just need to stop complaining.
To add to that point. Marine has 50 Shotgun shots, 150 bullets, 10 grenades, infinite Pistol. Hunter has 30 arrows. Which if a hunter plays smart and picks them back up, can last a really long time. Then two classes with recharging ammo. Two Jitters combined to make 300 HP? Feels very irrelevant when you look how much. How often do you see a Marine use up all 50 shots? A hunter loosing all his arrows? and so forth. Not very often.

And another matter I would love to point out while I'm at it. Some of you guys just go off demanding change and expect it to happen? Balancing is not an easy thing to do. With these new human abilities, Cutty has even more balancing to do. Fine and dandy. Give suggestions. Just stop expecting the change to happen. In my opinion, as of right now. Beta 5 is the most horribly unbalanced beta yet. All these new abilities need tweaking, changes need to be done. So let's try to be more helpful to Cutty and stop demanding irrelevant changes like Sith Lighting or Jitterskull HP loss. After all, Teleport has just came out, give Cutty time to play about with it. It could work, it could not. If it isn't working, then it will come apparent in later betas. Jitterskull HP? JITTERSKULL IS SUPPOSED TO BE A BULKY HIT TAKER! Now please stop being impatient, and give Cutty a chance to tweak these new changes.

One last point I would like to make. Look how good we have it. Cutty could have easily been done with GvH after V1, even after EW could have also been quits. He continues to work on it, we're getting a new Expansion. Hes working on upgrading GvH and EW making it a more fun experience. Hes giving up his free time to work on GvH because we like it. He could be putting full time into his Megaman Deathmatch project, or something else. However hes being dedicated to fixing up GvH. I thank you so much for that Cutty. However what is getting to me is how much people complain and demand changes to suit their needs. How inconsiderate is that? Giving suggestions and expecting it to happen are two different things. Remember. Cutty really doesn't have to be doing this. He made GvH and EW. Could have called it quits, but continues to work on it for the fans. So can we please be a little more respectful? After all, we may be the ones giving the suggestions, but Cutty ultimately has final say and has to do all the work.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Robjoe on November 02, 2009, 12:02:58 AM
The entire previous statement is entirely correct.

EDIT: It's even more correct, now.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Anonymous on November 02, 2009, 02:32:07 AM
lol nice speech ivory, touché  ;)
I might have to point the importance of being able to avoid ghoul attacks as well. Staying alive in LMS is more important than actually running rampant and killing everyone. Above all I think the classes are fine, it's probably just about as good as it's gonna get. I beleive that the gameplay of GvH relies greatly on the maps. I'd rather see more mapping work than anything else.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 02, 2009, 09:45:53 AM
You said so much but actually nothing.
With the HP thing in 6vs6+ ,there is more than one ghoul. you're sayong in 1vs1 it would be okey but in 6vs6 what's 110 hp? Well in 6vs6 there might be 6 jitters raping around. Same goes for the humans, there might be 6 hunters with 30 arrows but i assure you, you don't just go and retrieve your arrow you just shot into a back of jitters.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Ivory on November 02, 2009, 10:28:49 AM
Did you even read the whole thing? Think about it. If a Jitterskull has 110 hp in a smaller battle where you don't have shotgun blasts, arrows, plasma firing about everywhere, that lack of HP would really show up. Jitterskull was meant to be a bulky class. Hes a big target, and almost always takes hits. Of course one other fact I may point out you missed.
6 hunters vs 6 Jitters.
That's a total of 180 arrows. That can be divided into any combination of Normal, Fire, Ice or Thunder combos. Then you have 900 Hp Jitters in total. While that sounds like a lot, keep in mind a single ice arrow at point blank range can be all it takes to drop a Jitter. Then Fire arrows have radius damages in flight. A direct hit from one hurts.
So Picking up arrows wouldn't be as necessary when you have team mates to rely on. Of course, at the same time loosing allies right and left...
Which is what happens really. Either hunters blow all the Jitterskulls apart, or the Jitters crunch all the Hunters. 110HP will only tip things into the Hunters favor. What I'm getting at is a HP reduction is just going to cause more imbalance, in the Hunters favors. Which is ridiculous. Its Melee vs Ranged. Jitterskull needs the heath because he does loose quite a bit of HP by the end of the match, if he lives. Hunters have the luxury of running off and firing. So Jitterskulls best bet is to pursuit and attempt to cut off.z

This is assuming they are the only two left, 1v1 or excluding any other ghouls or humans still alive.

So to sum up. A Jitterskull HP reduction is a horrible idea, and Humans have more then enough ammo to deal with 150HP Jitterskull and everything is based on personal skill.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 02, 2009, 12:02:58 PM
This is kinda pointless, i can turn your whole post around in the hunter's perspective and then you'll turn it around again etc etc.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 02, 2009, 05:37:51 PM
Please carry on. I haven't made any changes yet (been ill) and I haven't played enough to really know what needs changing other than what I suggested earlier.

I think it may help if everyone posted what they would like to happen with each class and I can round up the similar opinions (including my own when I get chance to play) and make changes based on the top demands etc
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on November 02, 2009, 07:14:41 PM
Marine: Check his attacks i dont know whats happened but his shotgun has turned much more powerful.

Hunter: .......

Cyborg: I find that it doesnt respond that well when side dodging (which i find is the most practical use of it)

Sjas: Is fine

Jitter: Well i dont want people yelling at me just because i say what i think so ima not going to bother here

Creeper: Hunter fire arrow magic is like a turbosphere for him (fire arrow magic + Full Health Creeper Which has good attack timing = Suicide)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on November 02, 2009, 08:29:22 PM
You forgot to mention that the Creeper is a lot more silent which makes him overpowered.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 02, 2009, 09:32:35 PM
Hmm... Guess i'll make a short post about what i feel about the classes.

Marine: Dont know any shotgun changes, seems fine as normally would be. Grenades are usefull but more difficult to use long ranged.

Cyborg: Fine. Extremely vulnerable after dashing, due to being incapable while and a moment after having boosted in a direction. But anyone who can put it to good use should do fine. (Welcome to Jitterskull charging. :P)

Hunter: Annoying. Ice arrows may do with a change, more spread, perhaps? To make it more comparable to riot gun in terms of damage, not instant kill. Also in general well buffed and ready for EVERYTHING, but might turn out useless if something is taken away. Not that i'd mind. :P

Creeper; cant say he's changed alot, didnt notice any bugs, same for Sjas.
Jitterskull: I like it so far, no spectacular changes, less pushing (so, less unworthy cheap deaths), i love less pushing. Shouldnt be needing a change, even if JITTERRAPE!!!!! occurs. :P
(You cant stop it by simply nerfing Jitterskull, blame team setup! (or use an actual strategy!) :P)

Oh, and perhaps ghouls could use some love and new tricks in the future, just something usefull in rather specific situations would even make me happy, like something to lure/flush humans out.

Hmm... Is creeper really different to other people? I really have no problems here. Neither noticed any gameplay bugs in general.
And i'd say OpenGL beats listening to creeper whispers in terms of locating the little bugger.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: TERRORsphere on November 02, 2009, 10:04:40 PM
Creepers are perfectly balanced.

Chokes are almost balanced, they need slightly more health because they seem do die after 2 melee frags. 150 anyone?

Cyborg is balanced (alias djump "+altattack;wait 1;-altattack;wait 2;+altattack;wait 1;-altattack" FTW!! makes dodging a lot easier).

Marines I would say are balanced. Grenades are so powerful!

Hunter's power is fine. Just the speed. I'll say make the hunter as slow as the marine. The marine slightly faster and the Cyborg slightly faster. When ever I'm a creeper and see a cyborg it's so easy to get a frag. Hide behind a wall, hear their steps, as they run past ball from behind, FRAG!

Jitter has too much darn health, 120hp please.

Sjas are balanced without fly-up fly-down jittering.

Ghostbuster is slightly underpowered. Just needs more ammo and more damage or faster projectiles. Faster projectiles will give him a machine-gun, awesome! More damage would give him a plasma-rifle kind of weapon.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on November 02, 2009, 10:22:59 PM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
Creepers are perfectly balanced.

They were balanced until this Beta in which, for some reason you can't hear and you can't see because of darkened levels.

Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
Ghostbuster is slightly underpowered.

:O
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 03, 2009, 09:50:40 AM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
Cyborg is balanced (alias djump "+altattack;wait 1;-altattack;wait 2;+altattack;wait 1;-altattack" FTW!! makes dodging a lot easier).

That sounds handy. I may as well just make it so you can press a button to execute it, I mean I don't think people are going to get used to double tapping any time soon.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 03, 2009, 09:53:31 AM
Damnit don't touch the hunter's speed. Unlike the cyborg/marine/gb. He doesn't have a way to keep ghouls at a distance.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 03, 2009, 03:26:00 PM
I truly dont see how a marine could force them back. A full hp ghoul could just smash trough them and try to kill them before being killed. Well, except creeper. He doesnt instant kill non-creepers, either, with a single attack 95% of the time.

Hmm... Ghostbuster is pretty much screwed in some situations too, but he just lacks decent firepower compared to other classes, currently.

Personally i would find a speed decrease interesting, you could still bunny-hop away or plain run behind unpassable obstacles, marine speed sounds fine.
Hmm... That is, of course, if the hunter remains usefull without that cowardly hit-and-run(-at-God-speed) tactic. Hunters shouldnt be the perfect all rounder without any weakness at all, seriously.

(And in case missing is assumed as a potential weakness: wrong! More of a matter of skill (or plain bad luck/bad ping/etc), and should not be considered a weakness in the class itself.)
Well, i'd be happy with any changes that gives it an weakness. Any!


Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow, make use of that to take them down, too. And all human weapons are capable of big damage (except ghostbuster's currently), so it shouldnt be a problem if you're accurate.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 03, 2009, 04:13:55 PM
Quote from: "Hunter side"
Hunters aren't that strong.

Hunters are better now then they were a version ago. That's saying something.

Quote from: "Jitter Side"
Jitters aren't that strong.

Bull&#%@

It isn't that jitters have too much health or use their height leverage to quickly scale floor to roofs, but because lots, and lots of maps cater to them. I see some ghoul fans in this thread championing Jitters, but it seems some of you have never experienced a full-on Jitterape. I've seen a 6vs6 to 32vs32 TLMS on Gvh, with the entire ghoul team having 16 or more members and about 60 percent of them is Jitters. Imagine playing in such maps like Wugi Cave (Gvh03), Spire of Fate (Gvh10, though the change has balanced it though), URBAN DECAY (Gvh12, and infamous for jitterape), Post-war technologies (gvh15), Solanid (Gvh18, and another famous example), and The Other Side (Gvh21) with a barrage of six or more jitters all on someone in a very confine space or massive walls they can climb over.

With obstacles in the human's running path, surpassed by Jitters effortlessly, Jitters can take the lead on humans EFFORTLESSLY no matter how skilled someone is. The only way for humans to combat this is through pure meta-game and a good majority goes Cyborg and Ghost buster (the latter being more situational). Most people on the ghoul spectrum resort to metagaming based on maps, which explains the huge majority of a ghoul team going Jitter to begin with (like everyone going creeper for that one enclosed map). It's down right ridiculous nowadays since people made jitterape a trend again.

This comes from a former Jitter player. I gave him up when I realized getting 5 kills two attacks is pretty much cheap mode back in the day. Not to say I can't do the same (or anyone) with other classes, but when I started messing with humans I realized how easy Jitters have it. Their radius reduction is a blessing, but it still has radius to their chump. Let's not forget their charge is very long as well, fast, and causes stun IF you live.. and that stun is enough for another bite.

Being a huge target doesn't mean anything if you really can't be hit.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: TERRORsphere on November 03, 2009, 04:32:18 PM
Quote from: "CarThief"
Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow...
The Jitterskull is far from slow. All he has to do is camp behind a wall and then lose like no health at all because the human is dead and all other humans aren't ready.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 03, 2009, 04:53:04 PM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
Quote from: "CarThief"
Oh, and 150 HP is fine for Jitterskull. He takes hits, alot. Not to mention, he's slow...
The Jitterskull is far from slow. All he has to do is camp behind a wall and then lose like no health at all because the human is dead and all other humans aren't ready.

Don't forget the surrounding humans or humans stacked behind one another.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 03, 2009, 04:55:31 PM
I think I can mostly agree on the human side on this one. Even Hunters with their buffs cannot out run a team of Jitters, let alone the other classes. I originally intended Jitter to be the skill class of the ghoul side but it really seems that you can dart about like a bitch and aim randomly and you'll take down most of the humans. I am happy to nerf him but I don't know how without ruining it for Jitterfans. Here's ideas I came up with.


More ideas welcome.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 03, 2009, 05:02:26 PM
Your first idea is bit excessive. The push was initially our way of escaping them, especially for the jumping humans (like myself).

Your 2nd and 3rd idea is great. Your 4th idea confused me a little. So you have a cool down between bites, but you can still roam about right? Now if that is the case, I am down for it.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 03, 2009, 06:05:56 PM
Quote from: "Mobius"
Your first idea is bit excessive. The push was initially our way of escaping them, especially for the jumping humans (like myself).

Your 2nd and 3rd idea is great. Your 4th idea confused me a little. So you have a cool down between bites, but you can still roam about right? Now if that is the case, I am down for it.

Meh the push was luck based anyway, no matter how well you time you jump.
FYI the hunter is just a shadow of what he used to be.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 03, 2009, 06:28:23 PM
Not so luck base if you were standing still. You get explodededed for standing still.

I rather have a Hunter a shadow of his former self than fire spam. It's pretty funny people call him over powered because NOW you must focus on other weapons while spamming new magic.

You can't fire spam if your attack is set to lightning. Learn to play (not saying it to you, but to those that say he is).
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Possesed on November 03, 2009, 06:32:27 PM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
I think I can mostly agree on the human side on this one.

 :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D  :D
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 03, 2009, 10:10:48 PM
I'd say he's pretty slow compared to what a human can run at if say, they where both in a large flat area. Of course, a good use of enviroment to get around will get you there pretty fast, charging is a more risky form of movement.
Meh, ok not that slow, but capable of being outrunned if the map allows for it. (Altrough most humans just lock themselves up in dead ends, waiting for the ghouls to invade.)

Guess i'll try to make my opinion about Cutman idea's short.
The first suggestion seems interesting, but as long as there are accurate Jitterskulls about in mass, i guess a jitterrape is unavoidable, if that's the plan.

Reducement of the radius would probaly lead to having hell on earth trying to catch an human out in open area's, not too sure if that'll work out.
Having a reduced charge rate seems only good to implement if he can charge like 3-4 times, or so, before having a cooldown. I mean, not all of the charge attacks have to be an directly aimed attack. You'd want to go around a cyborg and hit em where he isnt shooting.
My own suggestion, let him have a pretty decent barrage of attacks, 4-5 or so, but a pretty decent cooldown too, so he'll have to hit and run. (And hopefully a clear indication on when he cant attack!)
More details on idea:
(click to show/hide)
(Oh, and the idea only really works well if you can actually move during the cooldown.)

And while dodging works fine, being at the wrong side of a weapon after charging, however, is painfull. A weakness perhaps but as long as it doesnt guarantee death against most humans (on full hp atleast), i'm fine with some HP reducement. (Altrough he was meant to be bulky and take hits, no?)
Hey, i wouldnt mind testing any changes either, if that's ever needed. Hmm... I'd say try the charge limit idea. (And if your worried it'll be spammed, well, thats what the limit is for, hopefully it is capable of being made in acs.)

(And dont forget the hunter either. They're both powerhouses capable of instant kills, dont let only one dominate, it should stay fair. :P)
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on November 04, 2009, 01:04:22 PM
The only thing i can say after the topic title is:
... - overpowered.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 04, 2009, 04:07:12 PM
Quote from: "BloodRaven"
The only thing i can say after the topic title is:
... - overpowered?

Fixed*

Quote from: "Thief"
I'd say he's pretty slow compared to what a human can run at if say, they where both in a large flat area. Of course, a good use of enviroment to get around will get you there pretty fast, charging is a more risky form of movement.

With the amount of different terrain and obstacles Jitters can overcome, I think that is REMOTELY FAIR. Especially when said obstacles obstruct the path of a human trying to get away from the Jitter, but no, he is caught between a lamp and a wall and his only way out is the way he came.

A lot of fights resort to humans camping because they have to see where they are running to, but then they lose sight of the enemy and it gets worst (not to say this will stop camping). The goal of a human to kill a jitter is to be as far away as possible or play matador with a slime possibility of getting skimmed. Ever got stunted by a skimmed bite of a jitter? It's enough for the next chump to finish you.

"If you can see them, you're fine. If you can't see him, you're dead." <-- Fighting a Jitter.

Quote from: "Thief"
Meh, ok not that slow, but capable of being outrunned if the map allows for it. (Altrough most humans just lock themselves up in dead ends, waiting for the ghouls to invade.)

It is funny when that happens. Sometimes some dead ends have walls Jitters can scale over though, but anti-camping is great.

Quote from: "Thief"
Reducement of the radius would probaly lead to having hell on earth trying to catch an human out in open area's, not too sure if that'll work out.

A small price to pay to minimize the effort of a full blown jitterape. They have the charge speed needed to even evade people with the whole, "teleport here, chump over there," trick people do.

Quote from: Thief
Having a reduced charge rate seems only good to implement if he can charge like 3-4 times, or so, before having a cooldown.

Are you insane? That's enough jitter spam to do about a good third damage to a human team. I am exaggerating a little when I say that. I say a cooldown is fine if the Jitter can still move about. This way he can still keep his evasive movements while not having a team of jitters buttraping everyone.

Quote from: "Thief"
They're both powerhouses capable of instant kills

How so? Against creepers? or that really cheap fire radius luck shot on a sjas? The ice arrows?

Fire arrow > Creeper
Ice Arrows > Sjas and maybe choke
Ice Arrow > Jitter IF it is dead on.
Grenade > Creeper
Grenade > Only does a good amount of damage to a low flying Sjas
Shotgun > Sjas if you hit on dead center.. but getting that close is suicide a lot of the times.

The only classes I see not having one hit kills on the human fence is Cyborgs and Ghostbusters. Cyborgs need to hit opponents repeatedly with slow moving projectiles (normally 2 to 3 on certain ghouls or more). With lag shield, the projectile itself becomes 0 (I've experienced this myself as a sjas), and Ghostbusters need more (lag shield applied).

Ghouls can one shot anyone. The only exception are Chokes, because the blood ball has a radius (so if it isn't dead center or lag shield, you can live through it). Sjas can kill anyone with enough range (which I think needs a little reduce), creepers can just touch you and you die, and Jitters has already been discussed.

Hunters are fine. I've been seeing a lot of Cyborgs anyway.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 04, 2009, 07:10:02 PM
Hmm... Pretty much speaking from experience, i do say Jitter charges around alot for alot of reasons, not just one charge means its gonna kill a human, or is even meant to do so. You might want to use it to get around faster, it does help.

Often you end up missing, or they magically survive, or you just go past them. Hmm... I wouldnt mind an explanation on why 3-5 or so charges before the limit kicks in would still be considered overpowered.
As long as the cooldown on the limit triggering and when it hits the limit is fairly long (altrough not too long on the first one, perhaps).

I dont think Jitterskull would be actually usefull if the system was just like this:
(click to show/hide)
I would find the above system rather annoying to actually use. But i dont see what is wrong with the original idea, is the limit too large? Is even 3 bites perhaps too large?
Hmm... Or was something else "insane"? I do wonder, do you have any idea's for Jitterskull, perhaps?

Oh, and with powerhouses i meant Jitter and Hunter, Marine would be really lucky to make quick work of an Sjas (in about the speed of an instant kill). And i mean with targets 100 hp and higher.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 04, 2009, 08:16:00 PM
Quote from: "CarThief"
Hmm... Pretty much speaking from experience, i do say Jitter charges around alot for alot of reasons, not just one charge means its gonna kill a human, or is even meant to do so. You might want to use it to get around faster, it does help.

That's true for the more experienced jitter players or maybe ONE jitter or two in a team where they don't feel comfortable about spamming.

Quote from: "Thief"
Often you end up missing, or they magically survive, or you just go past them. Hmm...

My matador statement hit it on the mark.

Quote from: "Theif"
I wouldnt mind an explanation on why 3-5 or so charges before the limit kicks in would still be considered overpowered.

Be a human and fight some of the maps for Gvh. Make sure it's a 12 or more person game and if you see a jitter-fest, you'll know why.

Imagine dodging ONE chump in close quarter to deal with five others from different and random angles. Imagine being stunned by the first but you can't move fast enough to dodge the second. Now picture this happening in a map with buildings or structures evading your aim or an enclosed environment. Now picture a group of 2 accompanying ghouls to feast on you, and they were all jitters that charged at you seconds ago and missed.

Quote from: "Thief"
I would find the above system rather annoying to actually use.

Some of us would see it as a curse still. One chump then a small cooldown, no chump limit. Set the limit to 1, cooldown, then they can chump again. This forces people to stop spamming and think about their attacks more preciously or wisely. Haha. Those last two words is a premium on skulltag.

At further thought, with their radius reduce and being a projectile in place -- they can use a shorter cooldown.

Quote from: "Thief"
But i dont see what is wrong with the original idea, is the limit too large? Is even 3 bites perhaps too large?
Hmm... Or was something else "insane"? I do wonder, do you have any idea's for Jitterskull, perhaps?

One limit chump cooldown and extensively test it to determine how many seconds is needed to balance it out. If the jitter can move during the cooldown then such a cooldown should be a bit longer than before because of Jitter's evasiveness. I am not subscribing minutes, a few several seconds shall suffice for humans to actually get away and worry about other ghouls as Jitters tend to be top priority over Sjas (as it should be, I guess).

Quote from: "Thief"
Oh, and with powerhouses i meant Jitter and Hunter, Marine would be really lucky to make quick work of an Sjas (in about the speed of an instant kill). And i mean with targets 100 hp and higher.

I am going to just speak from experience here.

Hunters are less threatening now more than ever. As a Sjas player, I target the hitscans over Hunters any day. Hunters use situational weapons and now firearrows need a little more accuracy (but needs a little less power in that radius). With the absence of a marine, I will target the Cyborg next because of plasma. I only go for Hunters when they are open for an attack and I can get away with it. I am not downplaying them any, but they aren't that powerful and seldom good players make use of them effectively.

Edit*

Quote from: "Thief"
I dont think Jitterskull would be actually usefull if the system was just like this: Lets say, he has 4 bites before cooldown kicks in, and it stays like that untill limit is reached. For whatever reason, he bites 3 times, he spots a human, he tries to bite it, and fails. Then what? He tries again, and it doesnt work, as much as he had the oppertunity or maybe had to bite to get away, he cant do anything but move, and might get hit while running, if unlucky.

Did he make successful kills with those chumps? Did he squander them on spamming or evading? Jitters were suppose to be a skill class. The idea is to NOT waste your chances, but nowadays it seems as though it doesn't matter. I think that is the debate here.

^ Had to add that part to the last part of my post. Somehow when you added the spoiler tags, it meshed the quote tags even when the spoilers were removed.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 04, 2009, 10:03:39 PM
Hmm... A longer limit after charging once... I could say that's possibily a bit much, but no guarantees without tests, i guess. (And rather harsh along with being a sitting suck after attacking...)

Hmm... Being utterly destroyed when surrounded by ghouls is kinda... Common, yet also, quite natural. It doesnt really matter if they're all Jitterskulls or Sjas for that matter, anything really. The same would happen if there was Sjas coming at you on every direction you try to escape in.

I guess this whole "jitterrape" nerfing is making Jitterskull too useless in small battles, seriously. Not all battles are with 10/12 or so people. In such cases, any bad turn you might run into a ghoul! Not specifically Jitterskull, either. Humans never did well when teams where equal yet they both where on high numbers, depending on the map, and the events that happened, either team is going to utterly destroy the other.

Hmm... Well in short, he's plain unlucky or inaccurate at times, he needs those extra attacks. Every other ghoul has little waiting time before their attacks are reused too. Many say Sjas these days are quite powerfull, even if a horde of Sjas rapes them, i never hear complaining about them, what makes Jitterskull so special?
Well, short on time here, so i'll probaly be back tomorrow...

EDIT: Not that short, it seems, but perhaps i wont reply this night.
I would agree with Ivory, his attacks are multifunctional, escape, move faster, or plain attack. He needs to be able to do more the one. Else he's probaly rubbish, or tough to use kind of rubbish. Meh, neither will do very well.

Oh, making edits only for Jitterrape is pointless. Then a Sjasrape will occur. Then a Chokerape. Perhaps a Creeperrape... The only thing is that his attack can reach farther then other ghoul's, but edit him only to stop Jitterrape and you'll just end up bumping into a Sjasrape.
Jitterrape is all people think about these days... Just shoot and run!
Minor edit again: I'm crap at explaining why about things compared to Ivory. It seems. Just hope Jitter wont end up being useless.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Ivory on November 04, 2009, 10:12:17 PM
As a Jitterskull (and practically every Ghoul, mainly Choke) user, a one chomp limit would be horrible. I rely heavily on using a second attack to escape after an attack. Since my Jittering tactics are the same as my tactics with Choke and Sjas. Roam about, dodge, attack when I get an opening, and then run away and repeat. Unless I know I can make the kill, I make an escape. Jitterskulls attack is faster then starting to move again. So I use that to dodge behind something, or up an edge or something so I can start moving normally.
And for the record, due to Jitterspam, I'm never Jitterskull with more then one other Jitter (or two, all depends on the team sizes).
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mobius on November 05, 2009, 01:12:12 AM
The half second between a bite and dodging? Yeah. I know about that. I just went on Gvh, solo play, to see the difference. I think that the range of a chomp is greater than normal movement, and that split second is crucial.

I suppose reducing the stop after a chomp by half a second to compensate the cooldown is good enough.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 05, 2009, 09:14:12 AM
I find that stop after a chomp the best way to deal with Jitterskulls, I won't touch that. If you're gonna bite you better make it count  :p
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 08, 2009, 06:12:05 PM
Well, i doubt any suggestions in this topic are going to be an guarantee in the next beta. Perhaps just leave him be as he is then? After all Jitterrape is no different from a Sjasrape.
And in an average battle he's just a powerfull attacker with an kinda annoying weakness.

And how good he plays depends quite much on the map. He sucks in really large open area's, nor can he safely follow a human as hitting targets on the ground is quite easy, when it comes to looping paths. Just make use of the map! Jitterskulls do it, i dont see humans using an fairly Jitterskullproof enviroment if there is any. Not frequently, that is.

Besides the Jitterrape, there seems to be a lack of GVH servers around lately. One server had the flag that weapons drop upon death on, and well... That kinda made the gameplay go to hell. :P
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Frits on November 08, 2009, 09:45:17 PM
Quote from: "CarThief"
One server had the flag that weapons drop upon death on, and well... That kinda made the gameplay go to hell. :P

Makes ghouls pick up human weapons?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 08, 2009, 11:09:35 PM
Yeah, as well as humans pick up ghoul weapons. While it was funny to watch a group of marines get raped by a creeper with a shotgun and once by one with a cyborg arm, it didnt do well for gameplay. :P

As well as that poor creeper that got raped by the hunter with the jitterskullweapon. Hehe... Its probaly still up, perhaps.
That Omega Sector Ghouls vs Humans server from Kazakhstan.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 09, 2009, 09:08:07 AM
Okay I gave the Hunter a lightning bolt which fires from the sky exactly where you're standing. Takes a while to reach the floor depending on how high the ceiling is. Most effective against Sjas.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: White on November 09, 2009, 11:07:01 AM
That sounds kick-ass.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CarThief on November 09, 2009, 03:11:15 PM
That isnt really... Uhh, specific. I mean, how much damage does it inflict? Is it an area effect like fire arrows? How long is its cooldown and whatnot?

And i'm curious of all the possibilities why lightning raining from the sky? Oh well, as long as its not gonna be the new ice arrows or raping fire arrows.
Altrough i guess many humans are having a hard time against some particular Sjas, if used effeciently, they're fast and quick killers. Even faster then me. :P
How effective would this be against other ghouls, then?
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on November 09, 2009, 03:16:55 PM
It's least effective against the Creeper because he's so small and won't be "in" the lightning as much as the taller ghouls. It will barely harm Jitterskull because of his erratic movement. Choke and FrostBite will suffer from it a bit less than Sjas I guess. I've made it a few tics faster than the teleport was.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on December 02, 2009, 10:17:18 AM
The hunter's magic attacks are kinda OK now, but I think that the normal arrows make a litle bit too much damage.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on December 02, 2009, 10:48:15 AM
Quote from: "BloodRaven"
I think that the normal arrows make a litle bit too much damage.

(click to show/hide)

Did you just say that normal arrow are overpowered? It has the cons of all other arrows: the damage of a single ice arrow, the speed of the fire arrow and the accuracy of the lightning arrow. We can only run fast with it.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on December 02, 2009, 12:01:34 PM
Quote from: "ThaMarine"
Quote from: "BloodRaven"
I think that the normal arrows make a litle bit too much damage.

(click to show/hide)

Did you just say that normal arrow are underpowered? It has the cons of all other arrows: the damage of a single ice arrow, the speed of the fire arrow and the accuracy of the lightning arrow. We can only run fast with it.
Huh? I said that normal arrows make too much damage. I got hit by a normal arrow as Creeper with 70% hp and 1  normal arrow got me. ??? I said that they are OVERPOWERED!, not underpowered.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Qent on December 02, 2009, 01:39:11 PM
If that really happened, then it's a bug. It is supposed to be impossible for one normal arrow to kill a creeper with full health. So I think you must have been hit with something else, too.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Xorpedo on December 02, 2009, 02:48:42 PM
Nope. I was sure I was 1vs1 against a hunter and he got me with 1 normal arrow, i heard he swiched from fire to normal and it said WAS PIERCED BY xxx'S ARROWS.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: ThaMarine on December 02, 2009, 08:01:25 PM
Oh, my sorries. I know the difference between over and underpowered, but my fingers obviously don't.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: PivotDJ on January 31, 2010, 11:46:17 PM
Quote from: "Qent"
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
Ok I'll take his teleport away and just make it a damaging attack like the other two (a single bolt of lightning infront of him maybe). Also reduce the fire spin and ice damage. Originally I just wanted his attacks to be slightly different when you hit altfire, I guess I got a bit overboard!
Please just give the teleport a chance. It potentially has some neat applications, but I haven't seen anyone who's really good at it. They might as well be running instead. At this point we have no idea whether teleporting is OP or not.
I once used the tele to tele into a window, where no creeper could instakill me.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: Mikk- on February 01, 2010, 07:57:41 PM
Nearly 2 months,
A new record.
Title: Re: The Hunter: My thoughts on him in V2B5
Post by: CutmanMike on February 01, 2010, 10:29:16 PM
Don't bump ancient topics please (especially since this is irrelevant now)