Cutstuff Forum
Gaming => The Ghoul's Forest => Topic started by: Watermelon on September 15, 2011, 11:57:44 PM
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To all of you who have played on GVH recently, you'll have noticed a new wad came out with 4 classes that put some unique balance into the game. It's called the Nordic Saga (by Tor-Bjorn), and some of us have been helping him with the beta.
Thus far it's been really good, V3 is coming out soon and will fix some of the slightly OP things and add new features, but my thread has a different direction.
In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't. I tried adding ghostbuster weapons and alternate things to the game to enhance the experience but I found out that it's locked up with ACS. In addition, the code is a complete mess and I found some really retarded bugs and ACS spam that just shouldn't be happening (especially with santa). I don't know if this is intentional or not.
The mod needs to be available to have additions to it, and in the current state it just can't take it. The ACS is quite limited, and just reading it gives a headache due to the lack of indentation. I actually found it easier to decompile it from bytecode and read that.
Therefore, this mod will be forking GVH in the future. V3 is in the works (I handle the advanced stuff but I seem to have caught the flu or something, hopefully it's coming out this weekend). In GVH the test of forking it has begun with success. What this means in basic terms: None of the GVH updates will be applicable at all with each other. GVH3b4 and on will not have any effect on the Nordic Saga due to all the actors being replaced and patched accordingly. For V4, instead of using a patch wad to do this, the entire game and it's glitches (like the one that has prevented it from running on Linux that have been around for ages... why was this not fixed immediately and left to linger for months?!) will be patched among other things.
In addition, if the maps aren't in UDMF they will be converted and ensure that 32 start points are available for each team.
In a further addition, Tor-Bjorn is a very active player for the time being. If you want something changed after V3 and V4, a hotfix can get it patched within the same day. There's no waiting anymore.
New features that are in the works are:
- Modifications for all the new four classes to continue making them more balanced. Remember, Nordic Saga is in the beta, it is not yet optimized as it should be. The community has been very good (especially in the 27+ people Nordic Saga servers!). As soon as the new version comes out hopefully this weekend we can get another massive GVH:NS server going.
- Anything else you want
- New ideas that people thought were limited but probably aren't after a complete ACS re-write
- Fancy stuff that will make you shiver in game
All our source code for the game will be open source and never obfuscated. Our classes though won't be able to be mixed with Meepy's add on classes (though that wad needs some major touching up if Meepy is still around/not aliasing another name/hasn't outright given up on it). Despite that, I'm using my previous programming language knowledge to expand ACS so that people can easily make their own classes and effects if need be. Thus far it's been a complete bitch to add stuff and basically requires a complete re-write anyways.
All constructive criticism is welcome.
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Hopefully we don't have to exceed past v4 for the Nordic Saga beta. I notice IvanDobrovski & Hellstorm Haven't been credited. They played a role in testing, while helping balance out the game.
Anyways, it's nice to see you working so hard on this Watermelon, looking forward to your revisions for the ACS. Cheers.
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In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't.
Speak to Carthief, he's pretty much in charge of it now and his updates seem to be pretty balanced from what I've heard.
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In short to save time, GVH basically never gets updated and things that should be added aren't.
Speak to Carthief, he's pretty much in charge of it now and his updates seem to be pretty balanced from what I've heard.
Statistically speaking, the odds of human teaming winning on, say GVH11 are next to 0% when the ghouls reach past 5 players. On tight maps, Jitterskull's and frostbite's simply overwhelm the humans resulting in a quick 5-0. The same happens for Ghouls on a big map (like strikebeam), Because most of the ghouls are melee based and a team of marines simple removes them from the map before they even get close.
Since the release of my wad, the balance between the teams have come increasingly closer. It's no longer a case of the map determining which team wins, but the skill level of the player, which was my goal all along. Watermelon has taken on the job of cleaning up/ patching the wad as he has found it to be very messy; something Carthief has still not tackled. I've found looking through the wad that he has redundant code that put's excessive stress on the server.
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Well, do what you want. It's all good open source. I haven't played since forever so I could just be talking nonsense, but last time I did it seemed like good ol GVH to me!
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I would recommend you see the Nordic Saga addon for yourself. it does bring some fun new elements to the table while adding more balance to the game.
The Grandvoid server I hosted it on reached an all time high (just shy of 30 people) on a Friday night since the release of our wad. GvH hasn't seen that kind of activity for years until now. More recently I've seen other servers top out around 16 people, and that's on a good day. We double that.
With Watermelon and me working on the main wad, the productivity & maintenance is almost quadrupled.
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Hmm... Well, being basically a one-man team doesnt make large scale changes such as map conversion any easier (though i'll note the 32 start position for later fixing), but i'm trying.
Those mentioned scenarios about balance are currently quite map dependant, and rehauling all the maps is a gigantic pain and effort to do in one go, i mean, even Cutman back in the day didnt do much about the maps, its hard to make them more balanced yet still as the author atleast visually intended the map to be, even harder if the map is complex and has little to no space for improvements or widening, such as GVH11.
I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more addon-friendly ACS myself but you'll have to make some suggestions on what you exactly want, as for me it isnt too hard to make entirely new scripts to work around such limitations. I typically write a new script and let any other already handled parts refer to other scripts in the main GVH.
As for feedback on the actual classes, most people find the ice path rather... uh, abusable. It goes on till it hits the end of the map(or a really solid area), it apparently hurts more then intended, especially up close, and multiple times as well as just being neverending, no ammo limitation, no recharging it, or anything.
Most people also find the barbarian's hammer a bit overkill with the magic attack, especially versus Creepers where they just might as well kill themselves, its that effecient versus them.
Not much heard about the worm and the mage (though that mage does remind me ALOT of the oldschool mage from really early GVH, when it was hosted on stlms3 or so maps).
Oh, you could also join the GVH dev team or invite someone to join in, though dont ask me to let you in, though i technically can its all technical stuff and you're better off asking Euranna. Last time i heard she's around in Skulltag's IRC channel as Rachel, or PM her in the Skulltag forums for more, though its probaly good to have IRC available in case she asks for it.
Heh, its just too much to sign in for, to set up, and a program to install, im no good at that paperwork. :P
Edit: Hm, too much non-usefull code stressing servers? Would be nice if you made a list of that, either here or in PM, preferabaly mentioning script number, function and what acs file they're in. Reminds me i should find a lag-free way for GVH11's skycar explosion, but i'm really busy as is with all the GVH changes.
Edit2: Oh, is the Linux glitch fixed yet? Last time i heard someone had an issue with something in GVH's mapinfo, i hope v3b4 will fix that.
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I'm just going go through these point by point, hopefully that makes it easier on you CarThief for forming a reply instead of me just making a huge post with many points in them ;)
Hmm... Well, being basically a one-man team doesnt make large scale changes such as map conversion any easier (though i'll note the 32 start position for later fixing), but i'm trying.
For making the changes, I could do it in about a minute or so per map. I'd say at most it takes 40 minutes for a complete conversion of all the maps to UDMF and ensuring that all the start points are there.
Those mentioned scenarios about balance are currently quite map dependant, and rehauling all the maps is a gigantic pain and effort to do in one go, i mean, even Cutman back in the day didnt do much about the maps, its hard to make them more balanced yet still as the author atleast visually intended the map to be, even harder if the map is complex and has little to no space for improvements or widening, such as GVH11.
Making the map balanced would be really hard, the nice thing about GVH:NS is it brings to the table balance in a different sort of way. If the icefiend or any ghoul can camp in a certain spot and kill with 95%+ guarantee, I'd say it's poor map design and unrelated to us (or something we should fix).
I certainly wouldnt mind seeing more addon-friendly ACS myself but you'll have to make some suggestions on what you exactly want, as for me it isnt too hard to make entirely new scripts to work around such limitations. I typically write a new script and let any other already handled parts refer to other scripts in the main GVH.
As for more friendly ACS,
1) It would need to be indented and readable properly
2) Compose certain scripts together and maybe make them function on a switch state to reduce the amount of scripts
3) Use switches or for loops instead of a lot of if/elses
...etc
As for feedback on the actual classes, most people find the ice path rather... uh, abusable. It goes on till it hits the end of the map(or a really solid area), it apparently hurts more then intended, especially up close, and multiple times as well as just being neverending, no ammo limitation, no recharging it, or anything.
I agree, the icefiend is fixed (nerfed) in Beta V3.
Most people also find the barbarian's hammer a bit overkill with the magic attack, especially versus Creepers where they just might as well kill themselves, its that effecient versus them.
Not much heard about the worm and the mage (though that mage does remind me ALOT of the oldschool mage from really early GVH, when it was hosted on stlms3 or so maps).
I agree as well, the barbarian hammer is nuts when in the hands of someone who is an expert at playing, but it was beatable (but either way to make it fair, his hammer damage was reduced).
I was still able to lure people and kill them though with other classes even against better people. I'd say the problem is people in GVH just rush and expect things to work, and in this version it requires more 'skill' or less 'one dimensional playing' if you know what I mean.
Oh, you could also join the GVH dev team or invite someone to join in, though dont ask me to let you in, though i technically can its all technical stuff and you're better off asking Euranna. Last time i heard she's around in Skulltag's IRC channel as Rachel, or PM her in the Skulltag forums for more, though its probaly good to have IRC available in case she asks for it.
Heh, its just too much to sign in for, to set up, and a program to install, im no good at that paperwork. :P
If I was to join the dev team, I'd want the new classes to be added and a huge re-write of things done to make it readable ;)
Is Eruanna even contributing anymore?
Edit: Hm, too much non-usefull code stressing servers? Would be nice if you made a list of that, either here or in PM, preferabaly mentioning script number, function and what acs file they're in. Reminds me i should find a lag-free way for GVH11's skycar explosion, but i'm really busy as is with all the GVH changes.
Edit2: Oh, is the Linux glitch fixed yet? Last time i heard someone had an issue with something in GVH's mapinfo, i hope v3b4 will fix that.
To begin:
Who oversaw Santa3b3.pk3?
EDIT:
BTW since you're the lead dev, why haven't you indented all the decorate/ACS code and made it readable? Open source was a great first step, but it's pretty much unreadable unless you're ready to sit down and go through everything.
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Hm, i dont think she's currently doing anything except the upkeep of various sites and the online sharing program for all developers (quite handy, actually), so basically its all paperwork, while i'm doing all the updates, atleast its more amusing then paying server bills, i guess.
Hm, GVH's ACS can get somewhat complicated, but moving it around makes for too much hazard of things breaking, i can know, i've messed with various things alot, though i can add comments of what stuff does, i suppose.
And whats this overseeing of GVHv3b3-santa.pk3 anyway? I am aware of a bug with the reflect scream shoving away traps now, though anything else, no idea...
Never really tried converting maps to another format, i'm personally fine with them as is, im assuming it would save space?
Hm... People always want more classes, more classes, more classes, i dont know about having those classes added, but if you ask me you're welcome to sort out stuff, there's always something that can use improvement, just ask Euranna as she's better at giving people acces and the program that allows everyone to keep the GVH files up to date online. Hm, still plenty of stuff to do before v3b4 is finished, such as fixing the various addons, it seems.
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Since the release of V3 for the Beta NS_classes, we have essentially reached the epitome of balance to which it will then rely solely on the number of players per teams, rather than the map itself. Except for a few minor tweaks, and the addition of GB upgrades, this wad will certainly not exceed past v4 and will soon be seeing it's final release. Also with the entire re-write of GvH coming along as anticipated, we hope to integrate the addon classes into the revised wad and have all the servers hosting our new optimized Ghouls Vs Humans (maybe with some new maps ;))
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Meh, the obscene damage from the barbarian's weapon, the cheap invulnerability, the fact that storms do like 75 damage and more if you happen to be stuck or in a bad spot, its got a long way to reach actual balance. Classic superpowerfull Humans vs nerfed/weak(er) Ghouls scenario that used to present itself alot.
And i cannot lean the balance of GVH on this addon what still has a long way to go, either, no matter how you insist on doing some things yourself. Not to mention not everyone wants to play with such classes possibily, so it cant just be relied on, and you might want to cough up that possible linux error anyway.
Oh, and stop trying to hijack the whole thing, not everything is as compatible nor freely moddable, though speaking of the subject i did add some stuff making it more addon-friendly. Aside making hotfixes just shove any errors into the usual topic and it'll go into the internal GVH files.
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Meh, the obscene damage from the barbarian's weapon, the cheap invulnerability, the fact that storms do like 75 damage and more if you happen to be stuck or in a bad spot, its got a long way to reach actual balance. Classic superpowerfull Humans vs nerfed/weak(er) Ghouls scenario that used to present itself alot.
It has been pointed out many times, the berserk invulnerability comes at cost. At the end of the berserk, you're health drops to 25 (or stays whatever your health was if it's < 25). My point being that the berserk is a last resort and can waste your turn should you use it improperly. When used however the ghouls quickly run away so to add a cool down that you were so aggressive about adding in would virtually render the berserk useless.
As for the sword, I think it's fine as it is, but to rule out a slight nerf would be asinine. It already does a random between 22-35 dmg, in which case I would consider lowering it to 20-27; The Berserk sword however will go unchanged. IvanDobrovski has proven as a skilled player that the Barbarian class is a force to be reckoned with, but the same results can not easily be anticipated with every other player as skill levels play a role.
I have also clearly stated in the Readme (and soon the be posted on the forum in final release) the barbarians main role was to excel in "Close Quarters Battle", something the humans lacked in rather tight maps where a jitter can make a mess. To reiterate this point to an even simpler level: the Barbarian does best on small maps, and does moderately okay on big open maps.
And i cannot lean the balance of GVH on this addon what still has a long way to go, either, no matter how you insist on doing some things yourself. Not to mention not everyone wants to play with such classes possibily, so it cant just be relied on, and you might want to cough up that possible linux error anyway.
I assure you this addon does not "have a long way to go" (If that is what you're implying), other than a few touch ups and SNDINFO modification, this wad nears it's final release. Having near 30 players in the Grandvoid server has proven to be the ultimate test of balance. With a well rounded mix of classes, I can yet again assure you that we've been through the balancing phase many times.
Oh, and stop trying to hijack the whole thing, not everything is as compatible nor freely moddable, though speaking of the subject i did add some stuff making it more addon-friendly. Aside making hotfixes just shove any errors into the usual topic and it'll go into the internal GVH files.
Stop "trying" to hijack? Well I'll play along with this game, but I'm sorry to inform you that it *HAS* been forked (I wonder what gave it away). Without trying to sound redundant, no other server hosting ghouls vs humans sees the attention we do at Grandvoid, and it will continue to increase. Since we came along and began fixing things, the consensus seems rather pleased (most credit goes to Watermelon for that dept.)
I noticed since this addon-wad really starting picking up, you've managed to pick up the pace as well (Glad to see our wad is acting as motivation for you). I didn't like waiting months on end for an update; I'm a fix it now guy.
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Ah, things dont last forever, dont see meepy's classes being hosted much either, these days. I really wouldnt rely on the wad itself to fix everything if i where you, but oh well.
The beserk might be... Bearable, if not a tad over the top, possibily, though the normal ranged attack is just outright... barbaric, heh. And now it seems the new ghouls are doing much less decently then the humans. Just make the damn bezerk more obvious, though i think that was stated often enough on the server. Perhaps doomsphere-style red sprites.
Well i'd say, just because it gets 30 people a day doesnt mean it'll last, new classes get all the attention but not forever. Wonder if Grandvoid is able to update this time... Dont be too proud to update, it tends to have critical balance changes and bugfixes even if you insist on having this little rivalry of sorts, if anything giving people good and non-broken content is above that. Hmm... And GVH is just very large scale compared to the addon, dont be suprised if it takes weeks to update with all the changes that need considering, implementing and testing, especially if they refuse to work properly at first...
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Ah, things dont last forever, dont see meepy's classes being hosted much either, these days. I really wouldnt rely on the wad itself to fix everything if i where you, but oh well.
I don't know if you noticed, but meepy's classes were poorly coded, generic, and imbalanced, 3 things I so desperately spent avoiding. All the while I've received many complements stating that my classes are new, original and fresh. But enough boasting, I've made it very clear that unlike meepy, I made the classes attacking the problems that GvH had: which is that the original ghouls did horrible on big open maps, and humans didn't stand a chance on small maps.
I can't say this without being blunt, but your choice of comparing our wads in an attempt to make a point was poorly executed.
The beserk might be... Bearable, if not a tad over the top, possibily, though the normal ranged attack is just outright... barbaric, heh. And now it seems the new ghouls are doing much less decently then the humans. Just make the damn bezerk more obvious, though i think that was stated often enough on the server. Perhaps doomsphere-style red sprites.
As I've stated in my previous post, the contemplation of nerfing it slightly is there, But it wouldn't be much of a nerf. It was stated in the server while you were there that the Barbarian would be receiving much "eye candy" with the V4 update on the way. The Berserk will certainly be perceptible with the ideas we are having implemented.
Well i'd say, just because it gets 30 people a day doesnt mean it'll last, new classes get all the attention but not forever. Wonder if Grandvoid is able to update this time... Dont be too proud to update, it tends to have critical balance changes and bugfixes even if you insist on having this little rivalry of sorts, if anything giving people good and non-broken content is above that. Hmm... And GVH is just very large scale compared to the addon, dont be suprised if it takes weeks to update with all the changes that need considering, implementing and testing, especially if they refuse to work properly at first...
I'm not looking for bringing attention to the new classes, the whole concept of these classes were to bring balance to the game, and luckly with the direction things are heading in, the will be integrated with the *forked* GvH pk3 instead of being just a stand alone wad. I am not quite sure why you are implying when you say "don't be too proud do update"? We do all our testing in private servers instead of blindly releasing the wad, so we know our updates are solid, This severely cuts down on the constant need to release hotfixes.
I got a little chuckle out of your "rivalry" comment, because from where I stand - I see no rivalry. I only see a sinking ship being replaced by a superior vessel.
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Firstly, coming in with a "my classes are perfect and better than anything ever" attitude will not get you very far at all. Secondly, CarThief is right. After a few weeks the shinyness will die down and everyone will go back to their usual servers.
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Interesting, one more before i finnaly sleep.
With the proud to update thing i mean GVH itself, not your wad, makes that difference between having a good or a bad game because someone say, abused a spot in the map that can downright be considered a glitch, perhaps. Or possibily balance changes, even, in particular that Hunter bug. Already sent a update request/notification to some hosts anyway.
Heh aside that, the addon is just an addition, GVH is still the platform, unless you intend to make a whole new GVH of sorts, would be fine with me, if GVH does somehow 'sink' those addons wont do without it otherwise.
Hm, Tsuki 2.0? (your post subject) That guy from the MM8BDM forums tried the same kind of thing as well? :P
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By the end of the day, what I love best in GvH are the original classes, new classes are fine and dandy for a little bit. You have to wait for them to stand the test of time. That's something the true classes hold. So yes, I rather play the version of GvH that keeps the game how it is, but works on the balance, as opposed to the "superior" vessel that seeks to bring in more content at the cost of the balance I preferred.
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Hm, just curious, you're trying to make your own GVH basically, from what i hopefully understand? Own maps, classes, sounds, music, the whole thing, if i recall correctly?
If so i guess good luck, if it becomes its own wad completely independant from GVH, sharing no significant similarities, i suggest avoiding the whole copyright issues by renaming it a little as well (though naming the classes Ghouls and Humans, the gameplay, etc cant really be copyrighted). Its not an official branch of GVH or anything after all, if i am hearing correctly on what you're exactly planning.
If you ask me playing against masses of barbarians spamming their rage/invulnerability while at first is feeling like the REALLY old times, against hunters running like Gods, using 100+ DMG lightning arrows, but now just gets old. :P
Though i suppose the new humans hit twice as hard, making them quite an abusable class for the GVH pro who plays non-NS humans alot, on the one hand sometimes the normal humans seem too easy, on the other making them even stronger would bring out NS's human classes issue. Atleast its good food for thought on what to do next, i suppose. Hmm... Quite a steep difficulty for Humans compared to Ghouls in survival and victory.
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Yeah my classes weren't hosted anymore, and I also quitted Skulltag for a while, but I believe I deserve some respect, because my add-on was the only one for so much time since GVHv3b1. Many people hated it, but many people liked it too. Despite of the unbalance, they only wanted something new. I have always said that I made those classes for me and my friends, but people told me to make more, and more, and so I did.
I appreciate your critics Bjorn, but being that mean only makes me think you have some personal problem with me. If I insulted or something it's just because I've been provoked to do so, and I hardly ever do that. I put some effort to make those classes. Yeah even if no one notices, I have feelings too, and they're easily hurt.
Like 25 classes and they are not OP. I mean, everytime any class got OP I nerfed it as much as I could and I managed to balance them when we talk about damages, same with underpowered classes; I buffed them. All the newest unbalances or bugs were supposed to be fixed in the next release of my add-on, but I didn't bother to release it as only one or two people knew which was my actual intention with them. There were many fixes...
Now for my POLITE feedback, the only class that I actually liked was the Defiler, though it's not too ghoul-themed (these are not my words). Today a whole match with every ghoul being Defiler. And I must be honest. To me, the barbarian is just my Knight, but the axe was removed, and he got a berserk mode. Also warlock has some kind of the Templar's plasma attack. I think that you also checked my GLDEFS... cause the lights colors of the lightnings seems the same (I didn't check the file). And the Ice Fiend has Mage's attack... Weird... But good work with Defiler! Should add achievements. The possibility to view the achievements list is also nice.
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I am proud to announce that the GVH-NS.pk3 has been released and is now standalone. We no longer ride off the gvh3b(x) pk3 and have diverged into our own development-team outright. [Carthief still remains lead Developer on Gvh3b(x) series, just so we are clear]. Of course with new updates coming out weekly, we are constantly advancing the game forward on a much quicker pace. I've also noticed that our server seems to be gaining more and more players each day.
You no longer have to worry about adding this wad and that wad, the Nordic Saga classes have become an official addon to the GVHNS.pk3 Just load it up and you're good to go; no trouble. Can't wait 'till the final release.
Cheers. =]
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An small deail: I notice some classes (I don't remember which)doesn't scream when the creeper kills them.
Also, is possible to give ghoulsbuster new upgrade when he kills a new class? Would be nice :mrgreen:
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An small deail: I notice some classes (I don't remember which)doesn't scream when the creeper kills them.
Also, is possible to give ghoulsbuster new upgrade when he kills a new class? Would be nice :mrgreen:
I do believe you are referring to the Barbarian, and yes we are fully aware :) It was a consensus that the Barbarian would not get a creeper scream simply under the notion: "He is too manly...." But I suppose if enough people want the scream to be included, it is as simple as a 30 second hotfix.
To answer your question about the Ghostbuster class, you don't have to worry about the "possibility" of new upgrades. The upgrades for the new classes are guaranteed to be included in future updates. We're currently working on them as I speak. As a temporary reward, the Ghostbuster is given extra plasma or Ghost traps (depending on how you kill the ghoul) when you kill a ghoul until we release the new upgrades.
Hope I answered you questions properly & fully. =]
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Do we need a few more new levels? I think we need more Duke Nukem inspired levels, or maybe something from Blood? What do you think?
Or is 40 levels more than ample?
Thanks
GVH RULES
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Do we need a few more new levels? I think we need more Duke Nukem inspired levels, or maybe something from Blood? What do you think?
Or is 40 levels more than ample?
Thanks
GVH RULES
Duke nukem inspired levels are definitely being taken into consideration; we're also aiming for nordland themed maps as well. I think it's safe to say a new map pack might find it's way into the big update.
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Do we need a few more new levels? I think we need more Duke Nukem inspired levels, or maybe something from Blood? What do you think?
Or is 40 levels more than ample?
Thanks
GVH RULES
Duke nukem inspired levels are definitely being taken into consideration; we're also aiming for nordland themed maps as well. I think it's safe to say a new map pack might find it's way into the big update.
I'll look forwards to your new map packs.
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I wonder why GVHNSBetaFinal.pk3 is so huge?? (91,4MB) That wad is hosted by Konar6 (Grandvoid servers)
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That's because there was a lot of sounds and sprites we didn't convert from the original gvh that are still in mp3 format or wav. I plan to go through and convert all sounds & music to OGG while doing away with unused sprites.
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Is that really why? I downloaded it expecting a ton of thrown together classes and balance all over the place, but was surprised to see a fairly small and unique amount of new class additions! There's quite a few maps and stuff in here but I'm almost sure it's just the amount of music. I'd make sure you run them all through a proper compressor, and if you're sure you have, perhaps even turning them all into midi's and making an optional mp3 music WAD? I don't think it matters too much though, a bigger file size isn't going to stop people wanting to have some GVH action!
I joined the server to see if GVH was still frantic and fun despite the new additions, and it seems like this is true. I didn't try EVERYTHING but I'm not here to say "this should do this blahblah", just to say good job.
BTW I think SOMEONE is a fan of League of Legends hmmmmm? Taunting as the cyborg makes me think I'm a fatman with spider legs! I think the new sounds make it awkward for anyone who plays LoL, but that's okay ;)
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About LoL sounds : Guilty ! All my additions, but come on tell me they don't fit ! :D
Thanks for your input Cutman, I do hope with your response certain reactions of certain people MAY hopefully change.
Also, chugs for 31/32 server !!!
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Yes, Ivan has a knack for finding amazing sounds to implement in the wad :mrgreen: . A lot of the ideas pretty much trace back to him. Also the advice is greatly appreciated!
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About LoL sounds : Guilty ! All my additions, but come on tell me they don't fit ! :D
Thanks for your input Cutman, I do hope with your response certain reactions of certain people MAY hopefully change.
Also, chugs for 31/32 server !!!
Wrong! Several days ago it finally got 32/32 players in GV, so congratulations!
The new additions are perfect, are you thinking in adding more classes or is enough??
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Hi ! We are currently hauling our asses off on remaking the Engineer as well as giving the classes who don't have special abilities one. These would be Sjas, Frostbite, Icefiend, Defiler (These two rather lack the necessary combat skills on 1on1) and Santa.
If you have any suggestions as a new class, be sure to go ahead and drop us a message either here or on IRC at #gvh channel.
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Well that exploded... But in case anyone developing the mod is still here...
Just mentioning i would like for the four maps GVH31("Lava and Metal"), GVH33("Abandoned UAC Base"), GVH37("Mountainside Storage Facility") and GVH38("Ghostbuster HQ") rather to be removed from the mod. A reply will not be needed unless there is reason why those maps cannot be removed on a permanent basis, but there should be no such issues. Feel free to take your time but remove them on the next possible moment.
If whomever of the team is reading this but cant perform that action just tell whoever can to do so.
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Well that exploded... But in case anyone developing the mod is still here...
Just mentioning i would like for the four maps GVH31("Lava and Metal"), GVH33("Abandoned UAC Base"), GVH37("Mountainside Storage Facility") and GVH38("Ghostbuster HQ") rather to be removed from the mod. A reply will not be needed unless there is reason why those maps cannot be removed on a permanent basis, but there should be no such issues. Feel free to take your time but remove them on the next possible moment.
If whomever of the team is reading this but cant perform that action just tell whoever can to do so.
Took you long enough to request such a thing. As many know, we can't actually erase them from the main file until we actually update the main file (which is way way later). All we can do is remove them from the rotation for the time being.
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Yeah, I've been wanting to say something about that... Can't you just make a patch file for updates like that? Not a "manual patch" -- which is basically a full reinstallation or a secondary archive file, but an actual patch file that changes the content of the existing files? I know there's at least one company out there (Clickteam (http://www.clickteam.com/eng/patchmaker.php)) that makes a freeware patch maker that can make a patch to alter the contents of existing files based on the files it sees from a comparable version.
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The problem is the way they're doing it is just updating what can be replaced in terms of code etc, so people don't have to download the main bulk of the files over and over each update (It's a good idea really, other mods do it). There's not always options to remove things in patch files though. Case in point: The unusable Skulltag maps in MM8BDM.
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Actually, Patch Maker specifically can remove files from within files if the patch is made correctly. In the case of Mega Man 8-Bit Deathmatch updates, it doesn't work exactly as intended since each major patch has its own unique PK3 file (though it does delete the old PK3 and install the new one), but in the case of individual files with the same name ("Skulltag.exe", "megagame.wad", etc.), it can easily alter the contents and even the edit date to match the new (or old!) version without having to redownload the whole kit-and-caboodle.
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Well that exploded... But in case anyone developing the mod is still here...
Just mentioning i would like for the four maps GVH31("Lava and Metal"), GVH33("Abandoned UAC Base"), GVH37("Mountainside Storage Facility") and GVH38("Ghostbuster HQ") rather to be removed from the mod. A reply will not be needed unless there is reason why those maps cannot be removed on a permanent basis, but there should be no such issues. Feel free to take your time but remove them on the next possible moment.
If whomever of the team is reading this but cant perform that action just tell whoever can to do so.
TERMS OF REMOVAL:
- They must be completely removed from the original core first, never to return. Reintroducing the maps at any future time renders the request null and void and will undo any action done to the GVH:NS core and its future versions.
- As a token of good faith, the old core must have the maps withdrawn for 6 months (starting on the date of the patch with the withdrawl) to prove that there is no ill will directed towards GVH:NS and its developers, and also prove that you truly do not want it in GVH anymore. Since we are an extension of GVH and still use the GVH core, if the GVH core changes, then GVH:NS will abide by those changes faithfully as we deem fit; and backport the map changes if the terms are truthfully met.
- The old GVH core must continually be updated to show the author did not abandon his or her wad and is not hereby specifically causing any ill notions towards GVH:NS or it's developers. Single digit integer changes are not considered an update, there must be quality to the next development in addition to map removal. Futhermore, it must be hosted as such.
- Maps stated for removal will be replaced with a remade and/or modified map which may or may not be made from scratch, upon which the previous author will have no claim.
- Not meeting any of these terms renders the agreement null and void.
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Throwing law stuff at me now? While i'm not sure if you're pointing this at the right person i'll play along. If you meant to post this as an example on your internal procedures to someone else, then this has little meaning.
TERMS OF REMOVAL:
- They must be completely removed from the original core first, never to return. Reintroducing the maps at any future time renders the request null and void and will undo any action done to the GVH:NS core and its future versions.
If by 'original core' you mean the original GVH, as in GVHv3b5 or related versions, there does not need to be done such thing. You are using your own core file and you can make these changes independantly. Not much left of the original content anyway if i hear correctly.
- As a token of good faith, the old core must have the maps withdrawn for 6 months (starting on the date of the patch with the withdrawl) to prove that there is no ill will directed towards GVH:NS and its developers, and also prove that you truly do not want it in GVH anymore. Since we are an extension of GVH and still use the GVH core, if the GVH core changes, then GVH:NS will abide by those changes faithfully as we deem fit; and backport the map changes if the terms are truthfully met.
Same reasons as above. But aside that i do not need to state a personal, nor an official reason for a map removal. I own the maps induvidually, i never granted official permission for its use in NS, and i am able to request them to be removed in any wads that use them. It does not need to be all or nothing.
- The old GVH core must continually be updated to show the author did not abandon his or her wad and is not hereby specifically causing any ill notions towards GVH:NS or it's developers. Single digit integer changes are not considered an update, there must be quality to the next development in addition to map removal. Futhermore, it must be hosted as such.
I am not required to do any of these. Pointless to mention, but i am free to have any opinion on you as i please. If you're worried about updates, well, thats not entirely your thing to worry about, i'll update it whenever it gets more active or it needs one for some important reason.
- Maps stated for removal will be replaced with a remade and/or modified map which may or may not be made from scratch, upon which the previous author will have no claim.
I am not intending to remove nor replace the maps in the original GVH based on these terms. Feel free to do whatever you need to do in NS to fill that gap.
In short:
Do whatever you need to do, GVH itself (the original) is not required to abide by your terms. Like said above, you are using entirely your own files, despite being based off of the original it is not reliant on the original. It should be no problem to remove the maps from NS following these reasons i set up in this post.
People where always able to request their work to be removed from existing large works as long as they owned the content. No matter who the owner is neither do the consequences or reasons matter.
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Wait... if CarThief's maps are inside the GVH:NS extension (in other words, mod), then there's no need to reclaim the removal of his map from vanilla GVH as well, because GVH:NS is not an expansion. If it were, said reclaim from its complete removal from the GVH scenario would be called for, since NS would be integrated with vanilla GVH, and as far as I've read, NS is required to be downloaded separately from vanilla GVH, and therefore it is not an expansion.
Regardless of that, he's the creator of the maps, and has all the right to call its removal from anywhere it is, because it's a tangible, substantially-elaborated object. Implying terms of agreement in a free mod seems stretchy to me as well, but whatever.
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This is just a suggestion, but... What If you have the maps and the music in different wads in your next update?
NOTE: I may have grammar mistakes in my posts. Sorry if I have. I don't speak english.
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NS uses no original/official GVH files (anymore?) so yeah... The removal request has no grounds and seems rather pointless. In the end its the file owner's word on what goes or stays.
like i mentioned previously, take your time, just remove it in the next possible instance. I am not aware what specific file it is located and neither of its update time cycle, but eventually that oppertunity should arise.
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Throwing law stuff at me now? While i'm not sure if you're pointing this at the right person i'll play along. If you meant to post this as an example on your internal procedures to someone else, then this has little meaning.
TERMS OF REMOVAL:
- They must be completely removed from the original core first, never to return. Reintroducing the maps at any future time renders the request null and void and will undo any action done to the GVH:NS core and its future versions.
If by 'original core' you mean the original GVH, as in GVHv3b5 or related versions, there does not need to be done such thing. You are using your own core file and you can make these changes independantly. Not much left of the original content anyway if i hear correctly.
- As a token of good faith, the old core must have the maps withdrawn for 6 months (starting on the date of the patch with the withdrawl) to prove that there is no ill will directed towards GVH:NS and its developers, and also prove that you truly do not want it in GVH anymore. Since we are an extension of GVH and still use the GVH core, if the GVH core changes, then GVH:NS will abide by those changes faithfully as we deem fit; and backport the map changes if the terms are truthfully met.
Same reasons as above. But aside that i do not need to state a personal, nor an official reason for a map removal. I own the maps induvidually, i never granted official permission for its use in NS, and i am able to request them to be removed in any wads that use them. It does not need to be all or nothing.
- The old GVH core must continually be updated to show the author did not abandon his or her wad and is not hereby specifically causing any ill notions towards GVH:NS or it's developers. Single digit integer changes are not considered an update, there must be quality to the next development in addition to map removal. Futhermore, it must be hosted as such.
I am not required to do any of these. Pointless to mention, but i am free to have any opinion on you as i please. If you're worried about updates, well, thats not entirely your thing to worry about, i'll update it whenever it gets more active or it needs one for some important reason.
- Maps stated for removal will be replaced with a remade and/or modified map which may or may not be made from scratch, upon which the previous author will have no claim.
I am not intending to remove nor replace the maps in the original GVH based on these terms. Feel free to do whatever you need to do in NS to fill that gap.
In short:
Do whatever you need to do, GVH itself (the original) is not required to abide by your terms. Like said above, you are using entirely your own files, despite being based off of the original it is not reliant on the original. It should be no problem to remove the maps from NS following these reasons i set up in this post.
People where always able to request their work to be removed from existing large works as long as they owned the content. No matter who the owner is neither do the consequences or reasons matter.
They are part of GVH, which we are an extension of. You submitted them freely and you do not profit off of them. We at GVH:NS' dev team do not make any profit off of it either. You cannot copyright your maps because they already use copyrighted material from IDGames and other sources which they allow people to freely use.
We use the GVH core that Cutman has provided. You submitted your maps to his game, and we are an extension of his game. You just happen to be a dev for one branch of GVH. Therefore you must remove them from the core since we do backport changes... much like zdoom -> skulltag.
The only reason new content isn't in there is because you don't actually add any new content, or anything you add would break our balance.
GVH has a new core because GVH3bX does not work on linux. I've already been over this with you multiple times before; I had to fix it. Don't know why you keep forgetting...
The only other way for you to get your maps removed is to make a public post stepping down as the developer indefinitely, and acknowledge GVH:NS as the official GVH branch and to state that GVH:NS will become the standalone GVH branch of Cutmanmike's creation.
Upon doing so, we will then (after GVH:NS' dev team messaging cutmanmike about your decision) work with him to see what needs to be done to accommodate this new change.
Those are your two options. Choosing neither results in nothing happening.
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You are not required, nor encouraged to actually do everything GVH does. NS is pretty much your adapdation of GVH and your (or your team, whatever the case) to manage in whatever way. In such a way you are completely not required to keep up to date with GVH, and GVH itself is not required to adhere to your demands, requests or changes.
The maps on the other hand i made, i allowed GVH to use. Such a thing was not requested for NS, especially not when it started using its own independant files.
Just remove the maps. You've already sceduled to, or actually removed DTD and Ivory's maps. My case is no different.
Simple version: NS is no longer directly built off GVH and neither dependant of it. The source does not need altering, i do not need to comply to anything. I, the owner, creator of the maps want them removed from the entity 'GVH NS'. This should be simple enough. People these days...
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GVH is not the same as GVH:NS.
Expansion: "Oh look, it comes with the main game too!"
Mod: "I need to download it and load it separately from GVH"
Regardless of GVH using CarThief's maps, GVH and GVH: Nordic Saga are separate entities. Therefore, the removal of CarThief's maps for the Nordic Saga GVH modification do not require their removal from vanilla GVH as well, seeing how they are both separate entities. The only scenario where they would need to be removed from both entites would be if they were one and the same (NS features bundled within GVH's digital coding), or if the Nordic Saga GVH modification was an official expansion (which would be the same as the former, but just with vanilla GVH creator's consent and collaboration). None of these cases apply in reality.
Regardless of all this being perpetrated in an illegitimate offshoot of an IDGames, CarThief made the maps. There is no damage done to neither part for their removal. Copyright law is not the same as common agreement and respect towards a developer's wish regarding his/her works. There's no legislature here that makes CarThief "the legal owner of his work", but there is a developer etiquette in which the decissions of a developer regarding his/her works are commonly respected and followed. CarThief here expects the Nordic Saga GVH modification developers to abide to said etiquette. As of now, they have not, and have stated, nay, reclaimed the removal of his works from vanilla GVH in order to remove them from the Nordic Saga GVH modification. This implies that both GVH and Nordic Saga GVH modification are part of a grander Skulltag modification. Technicalities show otherwise.
EDIT: Even if the Nordic Saga GVH modification has branched into a self-sustaining entity bundled with vanilla GVH, there is no requirement for total removal of his maps. Let's go for a blunt scenario in here: CarThief does not like that the Nordic Saga GVH modification uses his maps. The Nordic Saga GVH modification developer team was never given permission from CarThief to use his maps for their modification, which branched into a stand-alone. This does not put them in a position to reclaim anything, given they did not have clearance from the creator of said maps. Developer etiquette calls for submission from the ill-positioned part.
GVH is not the same as GVH:NS. Do I need to repeat myself, or do I start becoming snarky and offensive? Because I don't like being snarky. I just plainly give up and watch the discussion go downhill. I keep going because it worries me that the community I take part of allows individuals to behave like the NS GVH modification team.
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I'll be damned if we need lawyers to arrange such a simple dispute that is simply a matter of etiquette (and some rights, if you ask me). Everyone else follows these standards, you, or some other representative of the NS team respectfully followed these standards with Ivory and DTD's map request. I am entitled to the same.
So pretty much what he all said. Just hope it wont come to the point i'll have to call Cutman and see what lecture he has for this.
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Problem is, there's nothing really you can do about it (at least in the world of doom modding) other than request. Even if the maps WERE removed from the GVH:NS build, what's to stop them just running the server with the GVH maps pk3?
I don't really agree with the whole "terms and conditions" thing posted really though, GVH is still mine and Carthief is the lead dev regardless. As far as for what's official and what isn't, it doesn't really matter at the end of the day, GVH:NS is the thing that's getting played the most at the moment no?
Doom modding is a very sketchy area when it comes to what's legal and right. Beyond asking nicely, there's probably not much else you (or I) can do to get them removed.
My advice would be to just let it go and go make something else awesome. That's what I'm doing :p
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You cannot copyright your maps because they already use copyrighted material from IDGames and other sources which they allow people to freely use.
That's not quite how copyright works, boy.
In any country that follows the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works, copyright is automatic, and is enforceable once it has been implemented in a tangible form. The methods of its creation matters not; Trying to claim that he can't claim copyright for his maps simply because they use base technology made by another entity is like trying to claim that an artist can't claim copyright on his painting because he's painted it with certain brushes. Not to mention that said base technology is freely usable, as you just said.
CarThief (and all mapmakers by extension) can utilize all exclusive rights inherent to copyrighted material, which includes, among other things:
* to produce copies or reproductions of the work (and to sell those copies, although this is irrelevant in this matter)
* to create derivative works (works that adapt the original work)
* to perform or display the work publicly
* to sell or assign these rights to others
Exclusive rights, in this case means, rights freely excersizable by the holder of the copyright, and only the holder of the copyright unless given permission by him. You are using a copy of his work without his permission, and he has requested that you remove it. This is something that's theoretically (but not practically, due to the non-standard nature of digital works) enforcable by court. By not removing those maps despite his requests, you are technically a criminal.
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I guess its a bit of a different matter on what people want to run on servers. Though all those requests in order to simply remove a few maps is utterly rediculous and offensive, almost.
Lets just hope they will act better as they show themselves to be. Doubtfull this would be a valid matter to take to the admins though? One can hope... Heh.
I just hope people will keep it professional this time though. Last topic litterally exploded.
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(http://www.constantmayhem.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10002/interesting-thread.gif)
I just hope people will keep it professional this time though. Last topic literally exploded.
That's not quite how copyright works, boy.
I appreciate you offering you knowledge on copyright laws, but please refrain from sneaking insults into your posts. It's remarks like those that instigated a flame war and got the last thread locked.
To contribute to this thread: When we get the chance we well be removing some un-played maps (most of which by Carthief and Ivory's map) so both parties are winning in this scenario.
Like Carthief said, let's try and keep it civil this time :)
-Cheers
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Eh, you know what i want. I need my sleep now though, just hope it wont explode like the previous topic, while i was sleeping.
Whatever the case removing those maps (like the other two) in total should be perfectly possible, all information how so has been posted here and there. Lets just hope it stays open when im back from work so there's a topic left to request the map removal in, though my gut-instincts tell me otherwise. Good luck.
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Terms and conditions. For a free modification of a free modification of an off-shoot of an off-shoot of two off-shoots of the Doom engine. ... I'm sorry, what?
Really, do you have to be quite this... well... over-the-top about what should be a trivial matter such someone requesting their maps, maps they personally created, be removed from your modification? (Of a modification, of an off-shoot, of yadda yadda yadda) I mean, honestly? You're not winning any praises here with your handling of this situation. You can't seriously expect to just throw a bunch of legalese at the matter and hope it goes away. The fact of the matter is that CarThief has been very patient with you on an issue that should not even be an issue in the first place.
Look, I could piss and moan but... Just remove the maps. The map files themselves. In some future version. No one's saying "get rid of them right now, I don't care if you have to release a new 200 MB download to do it!". CarThief just wants his maps removed, physically removed, at your next best convenience. So just... remove the maps, would'ja? It's the decent thing to do.
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I appreciate you offering you knowledge on copyright laws, but please refrain from sneaking insults into your posts. It's remarks like those that instigated a flame war and got the last thread locked.
My apologies. It was never my intention to reboot the previous flame war. All things considered it was rather tame compared to the other thread, but for the sake of civility I will try to refrain from them in the near future.
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On second thought i'll just make a new post and delete my previous one so it isnt an actual doublepost, and still gets some attention.
So, an status update on the map issue would be of use. Are there plans for their removal, or their actual removal, or is there any proper reason why such a request could not be simply executed.
Edit: Hm... Where'd they go, im fairly sure they didnt end up banned or anything so i wonder whats with the lack of response aside to stall map removal or to completely unethically ignore it. Oh well i wouldnt be suprised...
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NC is a not balanced... it just... BAD. also whats up with the voices? Marine sounds stupid. Why does hunter sound diffrent? i prefered his old voice. cyborg has an annoying breathing sound and the only class unchanged is ghostbuster. im fine with the tf2 engineer voice for the engineer but EVERYONE ELSE SOUNDS STUPID. why do ghouls get ranged attacks? because of this i cannot get a single frag. WHY?
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Why did you revive this topic? Let's not reopen and old wound.
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I'll just quickly add: Yeah they dont seem to be around here anymore, anyway. Feel free to press this matter onto them if they decide to open up a new topic in here. Assuming thats all within the rules, this being locked and all anyway. Dont remember if they got any other topics left open.