I tried it a bit yesterday.
Santa and the Engineer are too complicated for spammers like me.
And I miss the old music. :cry:
Well, maybe I should play it for more hours to have a better opinion or something.
Havent played it lately either, but mostly due to their... Well-known behaviour kinda ruining the gaming atmosphere.Says the guy who comes in and never plays trolling our wad.
The wads being the largest thing on Skulltag (feel free to prove me wrong on that, if there's actual honest, single projects that are larger :P) doesnt help either for people being new or returning to the GVH scene.We actually brought back old-schoolers and still manage to pull 32/32 people on various days.
I would call it GVH but its still not official and goes against the original values the game had, in particular the range vs melee aspect.Obviously no one likes the old values or else we wouldn't be hitting 32/32 people so much.
All the balance bugs where ironed out anyway, aside from maybe Jitter spam, still a difficult problem... I just dont see the point of overhauling the game that was well known and loved. At best the only problems where the maps and Jitterskulls (in groups), if i recall correctly.The thing that is awesome about NS is that it's so balanced, we almost always end up with 4-5 as a final score... unless of course myself and Ivan go on the human team and go marine after duels.
Hm, wouldnt be bad either in my opinion if they decided to stop using GVH as a platform and became their own game, plenty of time has passed, they probaly made 2-3 classes for each side now, its certainly doable and makes space for some good old fashioned GVH. Well lets see this explode i suppose, unless Tor is the one doing the talking...This is still GVH though, making our own game wouldn't do anything. No one plays the old fashioned GVH anymore, it's dead.
Pffahaha, I think it's complete garbage. The devs treat anyone who dislikes their mod like crap, there's a melee human, a ranged ghoul, the new ghouls are made wrong, and copious amounts of balance issues.The only people we treat like crap are idiots like you, and hackers; both of which end up on the ban pike anyways.
And if there is a GVH server it'll either be annoying gameplay in NS and/or the creators throwing shit at me for just disliking their choices in this mod,We kick you out come you come in and troll. If you're naive enough to actually think we kick you out because you dislike our game... the internet is not the place for you.
Kinda what got their Skulltag thread locked.Wrong again, we had high up mods come to us and tell us that the thread was trolled by 2 people. They actually PM'ed us saying we can open a new thread, we're just choosing to do so later.
I can only guess why some people keep playing it, probaly only because it is new and updated every now and then. Either that or people dont care for quality anymore, or so some people in MUGEN would lament about the creations being made these days.By your logic, people should have gone and played GVH3b5 if it's due to updates, but instead everyone just stayed with NS. Instead your thing just rotted.
I tried it a bit yesterday.Santa's still the same, nothing changed except a new weapon.
Santa and the Engineer are too complicated for spammers like me.
And I miss the old music. :cry:
Well, maybe I should play it for more hours to have a better opinion or something.
Oh, Watermelon. I'm glad you posted here.
I'm the creator of GvH34 Moon Light Glade. I gave permission for CutmanMike to use the map in GvH. It came to my attention you included it in your Nordic Saga. I never gave you permission to use the map, and I want it out. Thank You.
Well time to debunk some blatantly wrong stuff as usual:Quote from: "CarThief"Havent played it lately either, but mostly due to their... Well-known behaviour kinda ruining the gaming atmosphere.Says the guy who comes in and never plays trolling our wad.
Says the guy who calls anyone who doesn't like his WAD a trollQuoteAll the balance bugs where ironed out anyway, aside from maybe Jitter spam, still a difficult problem... I just dont see the point of overhauling the game that was well known and loved. At best the only problems where the maps and Jitterskulls (in groups), if i recall correctly.The thing that is awesome about NS is that it's so balanced, we almost always end up with 4-5 as a final score... unless of course myself and Ivan go on the human team and go marine after duels.
Bullshit. Complete bullshit. With all the time I've spent on Grandvoid, I've only seen 1-5 in the Ghoul's favor. And don't go saying "Sorry, the mods haven't seen you on the server, so you weren't there."Quote from: "Bikdark"Pffahaha, I think it's complete garbage. The devs treat anyone who dislikes their mod like crap, there's a melee human, a ranged ghoul, the new ghouls are made wrong, and copious amounts of balance issues.The only people we treat like crap are idiots like you, and hackers; both of which end up on the ban pike anyways.
So I'm an idiot for calling you out on inexcusable behavior toward people who have given your mod constructive criticism?
Your points are flawed and make no sense; learn to troll next time properly please.
So I'm a "troll" because I chose not to like your wad?
I could easily point out why all your points are anti-logic, but I'd be wasting my time since you have no clue what you're talking about (and choose to do so)
Do it. You say you can, so do it.Quote from: "CarThief"And if there is a GVH server it'll either be annoying gameplay in NS and/or the creators throwing shit at me for just disliking their choices in this mod,We kick you out come you come in and troll. If you're naive enough to actually think we kick you out because you dislike our game... the internet is not the place for you.
Again, bullshit.
Funny how in real GvH, Moon Light Glade was considered one of the better additions of the new map.By who?
By the way, if you don't clean up your attitude then there will be consequences. Cutstuff doesn't tolerate jerks.Yet Cutstuff allows posts like Bikdark to be made, right? Since I know how good of a mod you are, I'm quite sure you'd be glad to make sure there are no double standards-- right?
Yet Cutstuff allows posts like Bikdark to be made, right? Since I know how good of a mod you are, I'm quite sure you'd be glad to make sure there are no double standards-- right?Would you mind pointing out where?
QuoteBy the way, if you don't clean up your attitude then there will be consequences. Cutstuff doesn't tolerate jerks.Yet Cutstuff allows posts like Bikdark to be made, right? Since I know how good of a mod you are, I'm quite sure you'd be glad to make sure there are no double standards-- right?
Well time to debunk some blatantly wrong stuff as usual:Quote from: "CarThief"Havent played it lately either, but mostly due to their... Well-known behaviour kinda ruining the gaming atmosphere.Says the guy who comes in and never plays trolling our wad.
Says the guy who calls anyone who doesn't like his WAD a troll
Wrong, I call trolls people who make trollish posts, like yours.QuoteAll the balance bugs where ironed out anyway, aside from maybe Jitter spam, still a difficult problem... I just dont see the point of overhauling the game that was well known and loved. At best the only problems where the maps and Jitterskulls (in groups), if i recall correctly.The thing that is awesome about NS is that it's so balanced, we almost always end up with 4-5 as a final score... unless of course myself and Ivan go on the human team and go marine after duels.
Bullshit. Complete bullshit. With all the time I've spent on Grandvoid, I've only seen 1-5 in the Ghoul's favor. And don't go saying "Sorry, the mods haven't seen you on the server, so you weren't there."
How much time have you spent on Grandvoid and what username did you use? I'd like to verify this claim with my log access... because you're dead wrong here.Quote from: "Bikdark"Pffahaha, I think it's complete garbage. The devs treat anyone who dislikes their mod like crap, there's a melee human, a ranged ghoul, the new ghouls are made wrong, and copious amounts of balance issues.The only people we treat like crap are idiots like you, and hackers; both of which end up on the ban pike anyways.
So I'm an idiot for calling you out on inexcusable behavior toward people who have given your mod constructive criticism?
So you think that because I debunk troll comments that I suddenly have a bad attitude?
Your points are flawed and make no sense; learn to troll next time properly please.
So I'm a "troll" because I chose not to like your wad?
No, you're a troll because you make purposely incorrect claims that anyone who plays the game would outright disagree with you on, and seek to cause problems via this method.
I could easily point out why all your points are anti-logic, but I'd be wasting my time since you have no clue what you're talking about (and choose to do so)
Do it. You say you can, so do it.
State what places are imbalanced, and I'll debunk accordingly.Quote from: "CarThief"And if there is a GVH server it'll either be annoying gameplay in NS and/or the creators throwing shit at me for just disliking their choices in this mod,We kick you out come you come in and troll. If you're naive enough to actually think we kick you out because you dislike our game... the internet is not the place for you.
Again, bullshit.
Logs disprove this.
Would you mind pointing out where?Derrrrrp.
Says the outsider who comes into our forums to call us trolls, call maps stupid and become highly defensive of everyone's critiques. The mere fact you are arguing with me over this matter is not looking good for you. Keep in mind, it doesn't matter what you think is "fair", it's what the global moderators and CutmanMike deems acceptable behavior. Bikdark is pushing it, but hey, you are in no good position either.With response to your maps: You're just hearing what the server wants, don't shoot the messenger (me).
Arguing is fine, name calling is not. If this keeps up, anyone who continues it will be warned.
Doing wrong I guess is subjective, no?Quote from: "Watermelon"QuoteBy the way, if you don't clean up your attitude then there will be consequences. Cutstuff doesn't tolerate jerks.Yet Cutstuff allows posts like Bikdark to be made, right? Since I know how good of a mod you are, I'm quite sure you'd be glad to make sure there are no double standards-- right?
He's just arguing,he isn't saying WE'D LOVE TO REMOVE YOUR CRAP MAP, or just down right flaming. Bikdark is using some sort of profanity to defend himself, but that doesn't mean he's really doing anything wrong. I suggest you calm down :/
Can we take this to #gvh on skulltag.irc ? It'd both calm things here and we could better see people's opinions/constructive criticism.This.
Havent played it lately either, but mostly due to their... Well-known behaviour kinda ruining the gaming atmosphere.
The only people we treat like crap are idiots like you, and hackers
Doing wrong I guess is subjective, no?
Don't worry broski, I'm nice and calm :)
With response to your maps: You're just hearing what the server wants, don't shoot the messenger (me).
I'd be glad to remove your crap map. I personally always exclude it from the rotation.Looky here boys, we got a hypocrite up in this joint.
Can we take this to #gvh on skulltag.irc ? It'd both calm things here and we could better see people's opinions/constructive criticism.Most of us were pointing out things in a calm matter, until people started getting a bit defensive. You're making it seem like it's a problem on both sides of this argument.
Now as a mod, Ivory, please do your duty and lock this troll thread so no one has to endure it anymore.I see no reason to lock it. It was designed as a place to discuss the NS wad, and is doing so.
Thank you in advance <3
Watermelon
I need to get more air somehow for my huffing and puffing while ragemaxing.Quote from: "CarThief"Havent played it lately either, but mostly due to their... Well-known behaviour kinda ruining the gaming atmosphere.QuoteAfter Watermelon's posts, I can see why.You probably never would have played nordic saga even if I was Jesus Christ incarnated.
I, personally, will never play Nordic Saga after reading those posts. When the devs verbally trash someone for politely requesting their map be removed from the pack, you know the mod isn't worth playing.
Can't lose what I don't have though.Quote from: "Watermelon"The only people we treat like crap are idiots like you, and hackersQuote from: "Watermelon"Doing wrong I guess is subjective, no?
Don't worry broski, I'm nice and calm :)
Uh, dude, your nose is growing. You should probably go get that checked.
But you're in control of the channel so how will that work?
Also yes, problem is on both sides.Alright, my friend.
Excuse me, but if you have so many logs to disprove our claims, would you mind showing them to us? You say you have proof to disprove a ton of things, but you never show it.
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"Also yes, problem is on both sides.Alright, my friend.
Care to explain how?
Excuse me, but if you have so many logs to disprove our claims, would you mind showing them to us? You say you have proof to disprove a ton of things, but you never show it.
Also, stop asking people to just "discuss it in the IRC". It's just as fast to discuss it here and it's a place where the devs of the mod aren't in control. Therefore, people can give honest opinions without the heads of the mods blocking/banning them, which based on this thread I can see being a problem.
I would, if I didn't know I'd get attacked by the many members of this forum.That's not showing any proof of us (opposing watermelon or NS in general) being in the wrong here.
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"I would, if I didn't know I'd get attacked by the many members of this forum.That's not showing any proof of us (opposing watermelon or NS in general) being in the wrong here.
It just seems to me you don't have anything to point out wrong.
This place already has non-neutral moderators, I'd rather do it in a place that an external moderator that I KNOW is fully neutral is in charge.
This whole thread proves that really, I want to move this discussion to a neutral place.Hahaha, that's pretty opinionated, and again nothing relevant to the question I've asked.
Stop bothering us about joining an IRC. We're posting fast enough.Exactly. We can also respond to blurbs of text easier.
How much time have you spent on Grandvoid and what username did you use? I'd like to verify this claim with my log access... because you're dead wrong here.
Logs disprove this.
I'm not able to hand out logs
since NS is an extension of GVH, we can use it if we want.
I am proud to announce that the GVH-NS.pk3 has been released and is now standalone.
Digging logs is a painful task, it's boring trying to look for those. You are better off asking around in the server when it's populated instead, easier, since people would prove it for us.
IRC.
Quote from: "Watermelon"How much time have you spent on Grandvoid and what username did you use? I'd like to verify this claim with my log access... because you're dead wrong here.Quote from: "Watermelon"Logs disprove this.Quote from: "Watermelon"I'm not able to hand out logs
That argument went so well.
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"Digging logs is a painful task, it's boring trying to look for those. You are better off asking around in the server when it's populated instead, easier, since people would prove it for us.
<Translator on>
"We don't actually have the logs, hold on a while so me and my men can make stuff up"
You're not fooling me or anyone else here. We know question-dodging when we see it.Quote from: "Watermelon"IRC.
>inb4 you and your goons control the IRC channel
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"Digging logs is a painful task, it's boring trying to look for those. You are better off asking around in the server when it's populated instead, easier, since people would prove it for us.
<Translator on>
"We don't actually have the logs, hold on a while so me and my men can make stuff up"
You're not fooling me or anyone else here. We know question-dodging when we see it.Quote from: "Watermelon"IRC.
>inb4 you and your goons control the IRC channel
Learn to read, Brotoad or w/e goes on, gets OP status, then we join.
Stop bothering us about joining an IRC. We're posting fast enough.
Exactly. We can also respond to blurbs of text easier.Nobody wants to. Why are you so hellbent on getting thus there if we're perfectly capable of talking here anyways?
I'm not handing out the full logs. Maybe if you admin'ed a server you'd know they contain sensitive information.
I go in, get the data, and provide only what you guys need to see. Nothing more. Even then, I have no idea if I'll piss off the server admin so I'd have to ask his permission to even go through this.
Already stated why enough times. Tired of repeating myself.Quote from: "Watermelon"Learn to read, Brotoad or w/e goes on, gets OP status, then we join.Quote from: "Korby"Stop bothering us about joining an IRC. We're posting fast enough.Quote from: "Bikdark"Exactly. We can also respond to blurbs of text easier.Nobody wants to. Why are you so hellbent on getting thus there if we're perfectly capable of talking here anyways?
Repeat once more. I don't recall your reasoning.
I thought that was a good one until I saw the "goons" part. Sir, if you guys want any proof, have the balls to join the gvh server right now please. Instant, really, INSTANT proof.
Quote from: "Watermelon"I'm not handing out the full logs. Maybe if you admin'ed a server you'd know they contain sensitive information.
I go in, get the data, and provide only what you guys need to see. Nothing more. Even then, I have no idea if I'll piss off the server admin so I'd have to ask his permission to even go through this.
<Translator On>
"I'm not handing out the full logs. We don't actually have them.
I go in, make stuff up, and provide only what I made up. Nothing more. Even then, I have no idea if it'll be convincing enough so I'd have to make more stuff up."
Don't try to outsmart us, Watermelon. We know exactly what you're trying to do.
Besides, what the hell is sensitive in a LOG FOR A GAME SERVER?
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"I thought that was a good one until I saw the "goons" part. Sir, if you guys want any proof, have the balls to join the gvh server right now please. Instant, really, INSTANT proof.
OK, the goons part was a bit insensitive of me, but stop trying to get us onto the IRC server. It looks incredibly suspicious.
He'd try to outsmart you if you were smart enough... You don't get it. Why don't you ask Konar6 about why they are sensitive, oh wait you can't because you got that "OH MY GOD I'M DUMB SO I NEED THIS DEVICE" translator.
KEEP IT FRIENDLY - No flaming other users. Heated debates are fine, but if it gets to the point you're calling each other names then action will be taken.Uh..
Yes, Watermelon. The reason for us getting on IRC.
I'd also love to know your definition of troll.
He'd try to outsmart you if you were smart enough... You don't get it. Why don't you ask Konar6 about why they are sensitive, oh wait you can't because you got that "OH MY GOD I'M DUMB SO I NEED THIS DEVICE" translator.
Guys, how about you give reasons without calling us idiots? Or saying we aren't smart enough? This is getting out of hand.
Quote from: "IvanDobrovski"He'd try to outsmart you if you were smart enough... You don't get it. Why don't you ask Konar6 about why they are sensitive, oh wait you can't because you got that "OH MY GOD I'M DUMB SO I NEED THIS DEVICE" translator.
Ooh, they have IP addresses. Big whoop. Go in and replace part of it with number signs. They can't be that hard to censor out.
Quote from: "Tails_Hatsune"Guys, how about you give reasons without calling us idiots? Or saying we aren't smart enough? This is getting out of hand.
^ This. The only time someone ever uses name-calling is when they have nothing else to argue with.
[/thread]
Quote from: "xColdxFusionx"Quote from: "Tails_Hatsune"Guys, how about you give reasons without calling us idiots? Or saying we aren't smart enough? This is getting out of hand.
^ This. The only time someone ever uses name-calling is when they have nothing else to argue with.
[/thread]
Come "argue" with us on a neutral IRC channel if you have any logical points then.
Yes, Watermelon. The reason for us getting on IRC.
I'd also love to know your definition of troll.
Sir, you still haven't answered my questions.Quote from: "Korby"Yes, Watermelon. The reason for us getting on IRC.
I'd also love to know your definition of troll.
There is no reason why you can't argue on these forums. Because the mods aren't "neutral"? They're still people who can have a say in an argument. They can agree or disagree with someone. On the IRC channel the same exact thing will happen.
Quote from: "Korby"Sir, you still haven't answered my questions.Quote from: "Korby"Yes, Watermelon. The reason for us getting on IRC.
I'd also love to know your definition of troll.
Already answered.
Where?Quote from: "Epic Kirby"There is no reason why you can't argue on these forums. Because the mods aren't "neutral"? They're still people who can have a say in an argument. They can agree or disagree with someone. On the IRC channel the same exact thing will happen.
Don't kid yourself, these are not neutral.
Go to IRC if you have any valid points.
You mean the one you run?
k.
Simple.
I accept this as your refusal to attend.
Yes.
So what exactly will going on IRC and getting banned accomplish
You mean the one you run?
There is literally nothing different about IRC except you're in control. Speaking here is just as fast.
Come "argue" with us on a neutral IRC channel if you have any logical points then.
"Neutral"?
As in the one you run?
Sure, totally. [/sarcasm]
Also there is an edit button.
3) Brotoad will have FULL CONTROL over the channelIs Brotoad even on here to agree to this?
What do you people not understand?
Registered users: Alucard, AquaRaider64, Bikdark, Blaze, Bluebrawl, Crystal King, Epic Kirby, FiniteZero, Galaxy, Google [Bot], Gummywormz, Human Destroyer, ice, Ice-IX, IvanDobrovski, Kenkoru, King Dumb, Korby, Lego, LlamaHombre, Megaman, MetalManu, omegazerox12, PowerGloveNinja, SaviorSword, Solarblast5, sonicfan966, Tails_Hatsune, TheBladeRoden, TheFancyEddie20, Watermelon, xColdxFusionx, xxkirbysonicxx1, Yellow DevilHey, he isn't! Whaddya know!?
Quote from: "Kenkoru"So what exactly will going on IRC and getting banned accomplishQuoteYou mean the one you run?Quote from: "Yellow Devil"There is literally nothing different about IRC except you're in control. Speaking here is just as fast.
I've already pointed out
1) I DO NOT run IRC. k
2) I will NOT have OP status. k
3) Brotoad will have FULL CONTROL over the channel k
What do you people not understand? So basically you're moving from somwhere run by the Cutstuff mods to somewhere run by a Cutstuff mod who isn't even online.
...Totally makes sense.
And answer Korby's questions already!!
Well you asked me "who likes it" but a better question is, "who doesn't like it". Also no, everyone is not a valid answer.I don't like it, having played the original GvH mod (but not Nordic Saga). If removing it helps the filesize, that's great. Nordic Saga still has a rather large filesize and I'd prefer it be toned down before picking it up.
Alrighty, time I spoke up.
Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.
Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case. On the Ghouls' end, you have Jitterskull, Creepers (and don't try to argue with Creeper's stun ball, this is not lethal), and Chokes. On the Human end, you can see Cyborgs, Ghostbuster, and of course Marines. Sure, you'll find things like mines and detonators on the human end, but these are largely compensation for the Humans' lack of damage output compared to the Ghouls (Ghouls have to get up close to kill, they are very powerful, a good balancing countermeasure is to give Humans mines, etc).
Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.
That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective, ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks. In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.
Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?
You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add. It is not a sum or value that you can increase in order to become better. Balance is a state of things. To put it in a visual, balance is when both sides of the scale are on the same level. One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.
Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.
Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.
Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.
You make these claims, yet you won't back them up. You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.
You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.
How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something
I'll go through that long post and give my reply.
How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or somethingwhat.
How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something
I'll go through that long post and give my reply.
@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.
@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.
Alrighty, time I spoke up.
Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.
Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case. On the Ghouls' end, you have Jitterskull, Creepers (and don't try to argue with Creeper's stun ball, this is not lethal), and Chokes. On the Human end, you can see Cyborgs, Ghostbuster, and of course Marines. Sure, you'll find things like mines and detonators on the human end, but these are largely compensation for the Humans' lack of damage output compared to the Ghouls (Ghouls have to get up close to kill, they are very powerful, a good balancing countermeasure is to give Humans mines, etc).
Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.
That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective, ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks. In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.
Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?
You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add. It is not a sum or value that you can increase in order to become better. Balance is a state of things. To put it in a visual, balance is when both sides of the scale are on the same level. One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.
Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.
Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.
Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.
You make these claims, yet you won't back them up. You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.
You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.
Firstly, my issues. Plenty have spoke up about non-gameplay stuff such as the wad size, graphics issues, etc., so I won't comment on those but to say that they ought to be fixed.What graphic issues? There are none.
Now, the first thing I will address is balance. As has been pointed out in this thread, the previous thread mentioned by DTD, and NS's old thread (and I believe the new one) on the Skulltag forums, the problem is that you've ruined the delicate balance of the mode. In GvH, balance was maintained by the fact that (as a general rule), ghouls were equipped with strong, close-range weapons, while humans were equipped with weaker, longer-range weapons. Looking at the pre-NS cast, you can see this was the case.This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Now, what has NS done to this? Well, as many have pointed out, you've added melee to Humans and ranged to Ghouls. I don't see many using Barbarian, and I'm going to assume that's because he can't do very well in the hands of the average player.I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.
Say it's 5v5. Everyone picks random. Humans come up with Barbarian plus 4 pre-NS, ranged classes. Ghouls come up with Ice Demon plus 4 pre-NS, melee classes. The Barbarian goes to attack close up, it's now 4v1.Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
That leads me to the Ghouls. My oh my. While a melee class added to the Humans is highly ineffective,If you played the wad, you'd know how incorrect this is.
ranged classes on the Ghouls is very effective... in empowering the Ghouls. The ranged attacks I'm referring to are those of Ice Fiend, Frostbite, and Defiler in specific. Now, when the humans employ their normal (and really only effective, mind you) tactics, they are immediately flushed out by these powerful ranged attacks.Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain. It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.
In the chaos produced by Frostbite's dazzling attacks, the Ice Demon's very difficult to dodge icicle attack, and the obstruction provided by Defilers, the melee ghouls, who once had to deal with coordinated and deliberate fire from the Humans, can now come in and wreck havoc.If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.
Seeing as you've managed to avoid or 'filibust' the previous arguments on this point, let's look at another way shall we? Humans have quite a few classes with weak-to-medium long-range weapons, with a few close range weapons that cannot be reliably used as primary weapons (grenades, mines, etc.), and a melee class. Ghouls have quite a few powerful, fast melee classes with a few medium-to-powerful, long-ranged classes. Which sounds more powerful?See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.
You've claimed that you have 'added' 'unique' balance. Firstly, balance is not something you add.Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?
One can claim to have 'semi-balance', where the sides of the scale are juuust about on the same level. However, what you've done is add a feather to one side of the scale, and a brick to the other.GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Secondly, there is no such thing as 'unique' balance. As I said, balance is a state, with no denotation of specifics; in other words, 'balance' can refer to a feather on both sides of the scale, or a brick on both sides. Yes, you can make unique classes, but making unique classes doesn't make things balanced.Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Now, previously, when others had brought up these issues, you have done a number of things. You have disregarded them as trolls, pointing to past actions of theirs which you define as trolling. Secondly, you have pointed to their own past mistakes, telling them they are in now position to make the above analyses. These counterarguments of yours are folly. When something is observable, as the above is, the person making the observation does not matter. For example, I have no past of project mismanagement or trolling on you and your co-developers. I have made the above observations just as those you have disregarded have.The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
Additionally, one of your most common counterpoints is that those judging your mod have not played it enough. You back this up by saying that either you or one of your co-developers are always or virtually always observing your server, therefore knowing who is on and who isn't. This is also a rather faulty claim. Firstly, it doesn't take 6 hours of gameplay to see the differences between NS and GvH; namely the changed attacks and new classes. If it is well known that GvH relied on the range vs. melee dynamic for balance, and it's obvious within 15 minutes of gameplay that the Ghouls have received powerful new ranged attacks, it isn't hard to make the step that this will hinder balance. If you want to require more information, damage outputs and speeds can be identified offline, over which you have no knowledge. Speaking of which, it's easy to garner empirical data without joining the server as well; for instance, your claim that you almost always end up with 4-5 score is hardly believable.And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
You make these claims, yet you won't back them up.I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that
You insist you cannot get the logs; if that is false, shame on you, and if it's true, stop making these claims, and stop threatening to search logs for users. You can't be believed.I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
You want to move the discussion to a 'neutral' IRC chat? That makes no sense at all, friend. Everyone who would want to participate in this discussion has access this forum (unless they've been banned, in which case we don't want them anyway). You feel like you're in 'enemy territory', that you're being assaulted by too many users, and that you haven't enough 'back up'? Nonsense, everyone on 'our' side has the same opinion. No other explanations other than self-interest exist for moving to your IRC.Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Quote from: "Watermelon"How come I can't post? My posts keep getting deleted by a mod or something
I'll go through that long post and give my reply.
@xColdxFusionx
You sound like a kid just riding of the coat-tails of people when you just go "yeah! yeah!" to everything.
You know if you keep flaming people like this you'll eventually get banned for a large period of time, right?
I'm gonna ask again to please stop double posting o:It honestly is no big deal if someone does or not. I'd rather have double posts with useful information than useless posts like the one you just made which contribute nothing to the conversation.
* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.
* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.
* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)
* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))
Please tell me your definition of neutral in this case.Remember me? I'm that question you never answered.
Ivan first:Quote* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.
You suppose? I'd like to here it from him. Again, I reiterate, in no way is balance unique, not even in comparison. Perhaps your new classes are unique, but I couldn't care less about that right now considering that does not result in balance. Then you've made two claims. The first is an enormous generalization that I'm sure everyone here and elsewhere who played GVH will say is not always true. The second is the opposite of the bulk of my post, which you attempt to rebuke in your next points.Quote* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.
The point of the class and the classes ability to perform its intended role are different. Of course his purpose is to kill the Ghouls; that's the point of the mode. The Barbarian does not perform this role; my post explains why. You say classes aren't always IDEAL for the average player; by this I take you to mean that some classes are trickier than others and require more skill. Of course a class' potency increases in the hands of a skilled player. The problem is that the Barbarian is fundamentally ineffective, and the ghouls are fundamentally more likely to win. This is not the case when balance is present. Every class has different gameplay, that's why they are different classes. Again, your assertion that I don't understand your reasoning is pointless; the reality is what matter, and the reality is that the Humans are fundamentally outclassed by the Ghouls. I can look at or play as every class in 15 minutes. That's all I need to see that the Ghouls have been given powerful ranged attacks, which destroys the balance.Quote* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)
It's not monotone or cliché, it's the foundation of the mode. It has been identified many times by credible sources (if you need an example, check out CutmanMike's New Years blog post on this site) that the foundation of the balance of GvH is ranged vs. melee. It's not that your changes require 'getting used to' or that we are opposed to change. And indeed, some changes are bad and some are good. But in this case, our issue is that the changes that you have made and that are under your control are awful, and you refuse to recognize this. I won't get used to changes that ruin an otherwise fun gamemode when those changes are reversible.Quote* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))
Provide credible statistical information and I will concede this point. Until then, since we have no way acquiring credible statistical information currently seeing as you 'can't post the logs', only analysis of the gamemode can determine its balance. You've failed to prove to me that your mode is balanced; I've succeeded in proving it isn't.
* If you think these changes "ruin" this "game mode", it's ok. As I know you haven't even played this for more than 15 minutes anyway.As far as I know, KD has spent at least a few hours on your server.
Whether you succeeded in proving it or not can not be decided by the people who debate, but a neutral side. Come ask if this is balanced to the people in the server RIGHT NOW will you ? :) Oh wait, do you even play this mod lol.
Another good post. Here I go;
Hey, this actually sounds halfway sane! Good job!
* The filesize is something that can be reduced and will be, in the epic update. (Mainly musics which when compressed make it 90mb in total, but it will end up being more than that unfortunately) Think of it like this. Old GvH was like, 90 mbs or what ? Take it out, its 60-70 mb that NS adds.
* 180 MB is pretty big. ...Exactly why is it standalone if it's an expansion of GvH, anyway?
* I suppose what watermelon meant by "unique" balance was that the type of balance is unique to what it was in GvH. In old GvH it was ghouls rape on small maps, humans rape on big maps. Now, it's pretty equal I'd say.
* Uh, frm what I saw, GvH's balance worked, for the most part. I don't see why you're complaining.
* The point of the melee class is to supress the incoming mass of ghouls and slow them down or kill them, if possible. Mind you, many classes aren't IDEAL for an average player anyway, say Jitterskull. Barbarian has a unique gameplay which you need to spend probably more than 15 minutes to understand. I don't agree with you saying 15 minutes is enough to understand the changes. There are many reasons we added these, and they are there to be found as you play, not just "looking over" changelogs.
* Problem: Ghouls are either a one-hit kill at melee range or do huge amounts of damage. Someone with a melee attack is going to get demolished pretty fast, assuming the ghouls are smart.
* The whole "melee vs ranged" thing is quite disturbing to be honest. It's monotone and clichés ridden. Apparently, people don't like getting used to changes so that's where the problem is based on mostly. Changes are everywhere, whether they are for the worse or better. You just try to get used to them. (Or delete NS from your harddrive, lol)
* It may be cliché, but it works, dammit. I'd appreciate the changes, but from what I can tell not much effort was put into balancing them effectively and the mod turned into a ghoulfest.
* "Hardly believable" vs "Statistical Information", it's not hard to see that many witness such scores, otherwise they wouldn't say how they love the new tie music we put right ! (We should really take notes of scores of each round btw. (I know watermelon will actually do that))
* >inb4 Watermelon makes stuff up and then calls people trolls for not believing it.
If I missed anything, do tell.
Sorry if any of these replies sound ridiculously snarky and cynical, I've just lost a lot of respect for you guys (mainly Watermelon) from reading your posts. All I can say is that from the sound of everyone else's opinions, this isn't the mod that you guys are making it out to be.
What graphic issues? There are none. If someone's complaining, there's obviously a problem.
In terms of wad size, when we make the new core it'll be 80 megs + 40 meg music pack, we found that all the old GVH data was not compressed properly and that was our mistake for assuming CarThief actually did his job.
I BLAME YOU GUYS FOR NOT DOING OUR JOB
This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Since when? The people you were playing with obviously suck at hitting things.
Even your own CarThief knew that sjas was OP and was going to put a limit on them.
OK, maybe Sjas was kind of obnoxious, but you have Doomguys and Hunters and other classes that can make ranged attacks that deal good damage quickly.
We fixed that problem. Next.
I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.
What exactly were the Ghouls doing when this happened? Wasn't anyone capable of landing a Creeper attack on them?
Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
Probably meant Ice Fiend. Now you're just being picky with word choice.
Also the barbarian has a ranged attack as well, he's not only melee. You don't see barbarians just rushing in there by themselves. No one does that unless they're berserking and playing a gamble. If you played the game, you'd know this is flawed logic.
He's a melee-oriented class. It's only natural that he'd try to rush in and get kills with his most powerful weapon.
Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain.
>implying KD doesn't have a brain
It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.
Doesn't sound like that to me, considering multiple people have complained about it.
If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.
===
See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.
Again, proof?
Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?
That's not "adding balance." That's "adding stuff and trying desperately to balance it only to give up halfway."
GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Very balanced indeed. The only time it sways in favor is when one team does really dumb moves like rushes in on GB traps, or if Ivan and myself + some other good Doomers go hunter and just kick everyone's behind.
...Again, proof would be nice.
Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Nowadays, you can't even tell who is going to win because it's mainly skill based now. There's no "Oh choke IS going to win".
I didn't see a problem with the balance in GvH. You obviously need to check your glasses.
The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
If these kids went into the science field, they'd be mincemeat within the first day. You should also take note of this.
Except they have legitimate points. You're too busy looking at the pretty shadows while everyone else is already up and walking around.
And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
Again if you played in game, you'd realize that 4-5 comes up almost all the time. Offline does nothing because I've removed useless bots from the game. GV is the only server that hosts GVH and I'm in there most of the time.
Hell, right now for the 5th map in a row, I hear the 4-4 theme playing.
PROOF.
I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that
The distinct lack of actual proof is overwhelming.
I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
All I ask for is a name so I can go verify in the logs how much time a person has played. That's all.
Give me the user name you played with then. Let me verify. Do this, prove me wrong.
<Translator On>
"I don't actually have access to the log, so tell me your name and I'll just make stuff up."
Seriously, if you're not going to use the logs, stop referencing them.
Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Anyone with common sense would not want to come here.
We're fast enough here.
Well, better than people who only play it for 15 minutes then rage when they suck :)People are playing for more than 15 minutes, and people are not raging simply because they suck. They are complaining quite politely because things are off-balance and not entertaining (speaking of which, that's the point of playing games in the first place. Entertainment. They are not being entertained, so clearly something is amiss). But you don't see that, don't you? No, you just see yet another "troll", who is baselessly bashing the complete and utter perfection that is your mod. You're not a gift from the heavens, and neither is your mod.
What graphic issues? There are none. If someone's complaining, there's obviously a problem.
In terms of wad size, when we make the new core it'll be 80 megs + 40 meg music pack, we found that all the old GVH data was not compressed properly and that was our mistake for assuming CarThief actually did his job.
I BLAME YOU GUYS FOR NOT DOING OUR JOB
This is wrong because we actually fixed that gap, that was the whole REASON why GVH was broken in the first place. In most maps humans would just go to a single point and camp into insanity and kill everything. There was no balance in the old GVH, being against 5 sjases automatically meant a win. In NS, this doesn't happen.
Since when? The people you were playing with obviously suck at hitting things.
Even your own CarThief knew that sjas was OP and was going to put a limit on them.
OK, maybe Sjas was kind of obnoxious, but you have Doomguys and Hunters and other classes that can make ranged attacks that deal good damage quickly.
We fixed that problem. Next.
I see barbarians almost every round unless its a massive map like GVHNS04, even then people like Ivan still beat everyone just because of the amount of skill he has. We've even had the barbarian Band Of Brothers achievement unlocked, where 4+ barbs all get at least one kill... there were 6 barbs on the team-- I'm pretty sure the 'average player' wouldn't go barbarian if they'd just get their rear end kicked.
What exactly were the Ghouls doing when this happened? Wasn't anyone capable of landing a Creeper attack on them?
Whats an Ice demon? You mean icefiend? Clarify please.
Probably meant Ice Fiend. Now you're just being picky with word choice.
Also the barbarian has a ranged attack as well, he's not only melee. You don't see barbarians just rushing in there by themselves. No one does that unless they're berserking and playing a gamble. If you played the game, you'd know this is flawed logic.
He's a melee-oriented class. It's only natural that he'd try to rush in and get kills with his most powerful weapon.
Defiler's ranged attack is not good at all (and people keep asking for it to be buffed, even though we've hit a good equilibrium point where it's quite balanced) and IceFiend's ice can easily be jumped over/nullified by standing on any object to anyone who has a brain.
>implying KD doesn't have a brain
It only punishes people who camp-- which was a major flaw in the first place.
Doesn't sound like that to me, considering multiple people have complained about it.
If what you said was actually true, then ghouls would just win 5-0 24/7 and no one would play our wad; but that doesn't happen.
===
See above point, because if it was true ghouls would just win all the time. Even on maps that are jam packed like GVH16... ghouls still do lose and I've been part of countless 4-5's on that game. In-game experience disproves this.
Again, proof?
Yes it is, you add something to shift the favor to a better equilibrium, therefore you add something to achieve balance. What is so hard to understand here?
That's not "adding balance." That's "adding stuff and trying desperately to balance it only to give up halfway."
GVH was like the brick, in our game... you don't see a huge team of ghouls destroying everyone. It's usually 4-5, which is the exact oppposite. In fact, most of the rounds come down to 1 v 1 at the end.
Very balanced indeed. The only time it sways in favor is when one team does really dumb moves like rushes in on GB traps, or if Ivan and myself + some other good Doomers go hunter and just kick everyone's behind.
...Again, proof would be nice.
Incorrect, we added classes which actually fixed the massively broken equilibrium GVH didn't have. The defiler and Icefiend stop camping, Barbarian stops up close ghoul ass-kicking within reason... just enough so that it's anybody's game.
Nowadays, you can't even tell who is going to win because it's mainly skill based now. There's no "Oh choke IS going to win".
I didn't see a problem with the balance in GvH. You obviously need to check your glasses.
The problem is their points are fundamentally flawed, and they act as if it's correct.
If these kids went into the science field, they'd be mincemeat within the first day. You should also take note of this.
Except they have legitimate points. You're too busy looking at the pretty shadows while everyone else is already up and walking around.
And you're basing your learning curve off of an outdated game on a new one with different dynamics.
Again if you played in game, you'd realize that 4-5 comes up almost all the time. Offline does nothing because I've removed useless bots from the game. GV is the only server that hosts GVH and I'm in there most of the time.
Hell, right now for the 5th map in a row, I hear the 4-4 theme playing.
PROOF.
I just debunked everything you said, game experience proves you wrong. People who play prove you wrong. The server itself proves you wrong, yet for some reason you keep the blinders on going "my lack of in game experience doesn't make my points any less valid", when in reality it is all that
The distinct lack of actual proof is overwhelming.
I have access to the logs, but posting a 100 megabyte log on this forum not only compromises people's identity and probably breaks a few international laws with respect to internet privacy, it's also against the wishes of the administrator -- and I also believe doing so is just wrong.
All I ask for is a name so I can go verify in the logs how much time a person has played. That's all.
Give me the user name you played with then. Let me verify. Do this, prove me wrong.
<Translator On>
"I don't actually have access to the log, so tell me your name and I'll just make stuff up."
Seriously, if you're not going to use the logs, stop referencing them.
Dear 'friend', IRC is a neutral ground with real time response. You can't sit back behind your computer and concoct a massive debacle like your points where. Flaws get shot down instantly, instead you have a circle jerk here of people who have nothing useful to add and just quote people going "yeah yeah!", people who take shots at us just because we debunk their friends, and non-neutral mods.
Anyone with common sense would not want to come here.
We're fast enough here.