Cutstuff Forum

Mega Man 8-bit Deathmatch => Projects & Creative => Maps => Topic started by: Joseph Collins on January 04, 2012, 04:32:12 PM

Title: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/09)
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 04, 2012, 04:32:12 PM

Important notice regarding the focus of this thread:

(click to show/hide)

It's come to my attention that some people may look at this thread and think I'm trying to attack them because their maps aren't perfectly compatible with the built-in computer-controlled opponents -- henceforth known as "bots".  This is hardly the case.  The point of this thread is to simply tell people about maps in which bots don't or won't function properly due to the flaws in the Skulltag bots themselves, not any given map.  You see, the Skulltag bots were designed with relatively simple coding: "Wander aimlessly, kill other players you see, switch weapons on pick-up, open doors if you encounter them, don't cross "no monster" linedefs if you can help it."  They don't even attack monsters. (Which is really odd, considering the ZDoom bots do.)  Thus, they tend to be a little on the "stupid" side compared to even the most inexperienced human player.  They even have problems navigating the default Doom maps, nevermind the really complex ones that WAD authors make.

When I created this map, I was hoping to build a useful database for the public.  While not everyone has a desire to use the bots, there are those out there who will for one reason or another.  In fact, there's at least one modification (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=3487) built around using bots in conjunction with human players.  Thus, I figured that if someone wanted to use bots for whatever reason, it would be nice to have a little list comprised of maps in which the bots are unable to fulfill their obligation of being semi-intelligent opponents.

This thread was never intended to agitate or provoke any of the map creators, nor was it intended to be a backhanded way to tell them their maps need better bot support.  Map authors make maps for human players that are capable of running, jumping, thinking, and acting on things other than archaic sub-routines and instinct.  Most authors simply don't think of bots when making maps because, to be blunt, they would have to bend over backward just to make sure their maps fully support simplistic robots that are riddled with problems and glitches which even the Skulltag coders simply cannot fix.

If one of your maps ends up here, it's not because I or someone else hates you or wants people to stop playing your maps.  You more than likely have a perfectly playable map for human players.  However, your map just doesn't work well with the simple bots that Skulltag provides.  And that's entirely what this thread is trying to say.  Nothing more, nothing less.

This thread is also not intended to be a discussion thread about the maps themselves.  Just the fact that bots don't work in whatever maps.  If I have something to say specifically about a map and not how bots behave within that map, chances are that I'll make a comment in the appropriate thread.
In that same vein, if you've done a revision to your map(s) that I notice and I write a comment akin to "not much has changed" when talking about the new version, I specifically mean in regard to bot-compatibility, not the map.  Once again, comments about the maps themselves would go to the appropriate thread, not here.

Thank you for taking the time to read this warning and I hope you find the rest of the thread informative!

Wasn't sure where to put this, since it could go under "Bugs" or "Skins & Bots".  Figured it was best put here, since it's something of a "bot-related project". Korby was nice enough to scoot this over here to "Maps", so... there you go!

As some of you may know, I can't play Mega Man 8-Bit Deathmatch online due to my craptastic internet.  When I need my fix, I generally play a botmatch.  However, as you may also be aware, not all maps are bot-friendly.  In hopes of one day creating the ultimate bot-friendly server (either offline or online), I decided to compile a list of maps which aren't "bot-friendly".  And by that, I mean bots on these maps will stare aimlessly at seemingly random areas of the map, try to run off the edge of a sector instead of going around, or are otherwise really easy targets or don't interact with the players/other bots unless there's a huge amount of either/or in the stage.

For the most-part, I've stuck to the popular map packs I see in the server browser.  If there's a map pack or individual map you'd like tested, feel free to request it.  If you have done testing yourself, also feel free to mention it so I can add it to the list.

All maps tested with Fraglimit 10, Winlimit 2, Timelimit 10, 3 bots and 1 human player.

Update Log

(click to show/hide)

01/09 (later on)
- Added a rather important notice to clarify the point of this thread.

01/09
- Updated IX-Pack to v1d.

01/08
- Updated BEST MAPS EVER pack to v4a.
- Updated RocPack pack to v1b.

Also 01/04 (Same day, later time)
- Added Kappak and BEST MAPS EVER packs.
- Added version numbers and links to maps/packs where applicable.

01/04
- Initial thread.

----------
Map Packs
Vanilla Maps (v2c)
MM1GUT, MM1BOM, MM1ICE, MM1DW2
MM2BUB, MM2AIR, MM2HEA, MM2QUI
MM3SNA, MM3TOP, MM3HAR, MM3MAG, MM3SHA
MM4PHA, MM4DIV, MM4TOA
MM5CHA, MM5STO, MM5WAV, MM5GRA, MM5CRY, MM5GYR, MM5DAR
MM6KNI, MM6PLA, MM6BLI, MM6YAM, MM6MRX
MM7JUN, MM7BUR, MM7CLO, MM7SLA, MM7SHA, MM7DW4

Mega Man Powered Up Expansion Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1691) (v1c)
MMPCUT, MMPGUT, MMPELE, MMPBOM, MMPFIR

Another Medal Please Map Pack Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=3000) (v1.6)
AMP02, AMP08, AMP10, AMP11*, AMP15 (AKA "DTD01")
* In addition to the bots getting stuck, AMP11 sometimes returns an error to the console: "Warning! Cannot path to location: 0, 0"

BEST MAPS EVER PACK (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3653) (v4a) **Updated 01/08**
v3a - BEST01, BEST02, BEST11, BEST14?, BEST17
v4a - BEST01, BEST02, BEST11, BEST14, BEST17, BEST19
? Could not test properly. The bots and I all died upon spawning every time.

Cutstuff Community Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=2546) (v4a)
CSCM06, CSCM08^, CSCM11, CSCM12, CSCM13, CSCM14, CSCM15, CSCM18, CSCM20^, CSCM22, CSCM23, CSCM24^
MM1BOMX, MM1ICEX, MM1FIRX, MM3NEEX, MM4DIVX, MM4RINX, MM4DRIX^, MM4SKUX^, MM4DC1X, MM5STOX^, MM5DARX^
MMWDW2X^, MM2QUIX, MM3SHAX, MM3HARX, MM7CLOX

IX-Pack Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1908) (v1d) **Updated 01/09**
v1c - IDM02, IDM03, IDM05, IDM06, IDM07^, IDM08, IDM09, IDM10, IDM11, IDM13, IDM14, IDM15^, IDM16, IDM17, IDM18^, IDM19, IDM20, IDM21, IDM22, IDM23^, IDM25^
.......XDM01, XDM02, XDM04, XDM05, XDM06^, XDM07^, XDM08^, XDM09^, XDM10
v1d - IDM02, IDM03, IDM05, IDM06, IDM07^, IDM08, IDM09, IDM10, IDM11, IDM13, IDM14, IDM15^, IDM16, IDM17, IDM18^, IDM19, IDM20, IDM21, IDM22, IDM23^, IDM24^, IDM25^
.......XDM01, XDM02, XDM04, XDM05, XDM06^, XDM07^, XDM08^, XDM09^, XDM10

Kappak (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3149) (v2c) **Added 01/04**
KAP01, KAP03^, KAP04^, KAP05^, KAP06^, KAP07^

Roboenza Pack Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=1911) (v???)
Due to the nature and build of these maps, bot matches are not recommended.
MMROBO02, MMROBO03, MMROBO04, MMROBO05, MMROBO06, MMROBO08

RocPack Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2527) (v1b) **Updated 01/09**
v1a: ROC02^, ROC04^, ROC05
v1b: ROC02, ROC04, ROC05, ROC06

Shadepack Maps (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=2711) (v1)
SHA01, SHA02, SHA03^

Miscellaneous Maps
"25 Meters" by Korby (http://cutstuff.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3424&p=113495) - KOR25M **Added 01/09** Despite the fact Korby mentioned this incompatibility prior...

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly
Post by: Korby on January 04, 2012, 09:50:26 PM

Silly Joseph, maps discussion goes in the maps subsubsubforum!

Also, 25m, one of those silly joke maps I made, isn't compatible with bots either, but it's rather hard for me to make a map like that work for them, you see.
And by not compatible with them I mean they constantly jump off edges.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 04, 2012, 10:08:53 PM

I was close.  Thank you for relocating this topic to the appropriate sub-forum, Korby.

Title: AT THE VERY LEAST, please cover Best Maps Ever.
Post by: Mendez on January 04, 2012, 10:44:05 PM

Savior has also provided reports similar to this, Joseph, that also provide specific examples of where the bots get stuck. However, I don't think Savior has provided as large a list as you have. In any case, mind adding the Kappack and Best Maps Ever to the list of maps?

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly
Post by: Awbawlisk on January 04, 2012, 11:00:18 PM

No don't add Best Maps Ever! It will be pointless! COPY'S MAPS ARE TOTALLY BOT FRIENDLY!!11111 Especially on Best01

Title: Re: AT THE VERY LEAST, please cover Best Maps Ever.
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 05, 2012, 01:29:43 AM

Quote from: "Bluebrawl"

Savior has also provided reports similar to this, Joseph, that also provide specific examples of where the bots get stuck. However, I don't think Savior has provided as large a list as you have.

I wasn't aware such a topic existed.

Quote

In any case, mind adding the Kappack and Best Maps Ever to the list of maps?

Done.  And let me just say, testing the BEST MAPS EVER PACK was an experience that will last a lifetime.  Particularly "Metal Man Was Here".  That has got to be the most insidious use for Yoku Blocks ever.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Copy Robot on January 05, 2012, 01:38:29 AM

Lego's Hard Yellow Lawn is highly allergic to Flame Blast.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 08, 2012, 08:40:13 PM

Updated the RocPack listings to v1b!  Turns out that one of the new maps makes bots stupid while the other works just fine.  Two of the refurbished maps also work worse with bots now!

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 09, 2012, 06:40:22 AM

Updated IX-Pack and BEST MAPS EVER for their new versions.  Not a whole lot of changes, really...

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Ivory on January 09, 2012, 07:01:36 AM

Well no offense or anything, I understand why you want more friendly bot maps, but I don't really think it's worthwhile of my time to improve pretty much every map to improve bot gameplay. It's just very, very low on my list of things to do.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 09, 2012, 07:30:34 AM

I think you misunderstand the point of this thread, my dear Ivory.  The point is to simply let people know which maps aren't going to work too well with the default bots.  It isn't a gripe-fest or a backhanded way to tell people "Make your maps more bot-compatible!"  It's absurd to expect people to bend over backward just to satisfy the wants of the minority, especially when the bots are... well... really freaking stupid as they are.
This is also by no means some dastardly way to sway people away from the maps and packs listed.  A lot of these maps are quite awesome, generally in many ways.

So in summary, this thread is strictly about saying "bots act dumber than usual on these maps".  Nothing more.  Besides.  If I wanted to criticize maps or packs, I'd do it in the appropriate threads to the creator's faces instead of being sneaky and underhanded about it.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Ivory on January 09, 2012, 07:58:18 AM

Ah my bad then, I misunderstood due to your "not much has changed" comment.

Title: Re: [Guide] List of Maps Which Aren't Bot-Friendly (UD: 01/0
Post by: Joseph Collins on January 09, 2012, 08:22:36 AM

Well, not much has changed in the way of bot compatibility.  The maps themselves -- the noted ones, at least -- have had a great deal of changes done to them.  But that's for another topic.

Incidentally, this misunderstanding did prompt me to write up a very thorough explanation of what this thread is all about.  It's essentially an expanded version of what I just wrote.  It's probably wise I do that now anyway, rather than wait until someone gets unreasonable with me.  Better safe than sorry.