Cutstuff Forum

Gaming => The Ghoul's Forest => Topic started by: Gato Cinza on April 12, 2010, 12:48:55 AM

Title: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Gato Cinza on April 12, 2010, 12:48:55 AM
I know i sound like an ass to some people but cutman you need to fix the alt-fireof Frostbite. Every match, there is someone who wishes to spam his breathe. Im just asking if you could PLEASE change something about Frostbite in the next update. Like weaken or it, or like dont make it regenerate (if it does cuz i dont play him much).
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 12, 2010, 12:51:40 AM
You're a noob and don't know how to play the game.

You can always run away from it. Or fly over it if you are a Cyborg.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Gato Cinza on April 12, 2010, 12:57:05 AM
:P

Im just saying because i seem to see alot of people who hate. I was also trying to delete that post because i relized how stupid it was >.<
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 12, 2010, 02:12:14 PM
Frostbite seems fine, if not a little awkward to deal with but that's usually his only defence other than the bit of armour he has. Anyone else got a problem with frosty?
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 12, 2010, 02:42:39 PM
No, Frost Bite is rather useless without that alt fire. If I wanted to go in a chomping, I would use Jitterskull. Some people just need to learn to run away from the breath and not to camp in an area that allows for that breath to rip them apart.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 12, 2010, 03:01:53 PM
His main attack is for dodging.
Title: .
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2010, 03:21:04 PM
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Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Zocker on April 12, 2010, 03:32:06 PM
Sometimes I play Frostbite (it's kinda fun) and but on some maps I feel a bit op with it. In small rooms the breath will hit humans up to 4 times and that deals A LOT of damage.
While it can be totally useless in wide maps (like Ghouelstein) my suggestion is to make to "breaths" a bit weaker but also a bit faster. For close combat FB still has his bite.
Title: .
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2010, 03:37:36 PM
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Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 12, 2010, 04:08:16 PM
Quote from: "pucy100"
Needs to be modified the armor icon with a something icy.
Derp?
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Lighting on April 12, 2010, 05:11:18 PM
Now that we are saying crazy things: Why don't we make frostbite a fire ghoul and turn his breath into an smoke gas breath?  :mrgreen:

Lol, it won't be a bad idea, we changed santa for the engineer, Why don't we do this? XD
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 12, 2010, 05:26:03 PM
Because "Heatbite" sounds ridiculus.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Lighting on April 12, 2010, 05:28:40 PM
But firechow doesn't  :D
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 12, 2010, 05:30:41 PM
Get sprites, get sounds, stick it into a wad or pk3. Then add it into your skins folder.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Lighting on April 12, 2010, 05:41:58 PM
alright, now i don't want to do it XDDDD

Lie, I'll try it, i'll search something
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Lighting on April 12, 2010, 05:48:38 PM
GOT IT! Hellhounds from psycho fobia http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DBJW7H8BGo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DBJW7H8BGo)

mmm, not, that will be in emergency chase... or not? They have a firebreath and a bite attack
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 12, 2010, 07:49:21 PM
Frost Bite is fine. Also, Frost Bite is a play on words with Frostbite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frostbite). Heatbite makes no damned sense in that regard. Just remember
FROST BITE'S PURPOSE IS TO RAPIDLY KILL OFF OR SCATTER CAMPING HUMANS IN TIGHT AREAS.
Title: .
Post by: Anonymous on April 12, 2010, 07:52:42 PM
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Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Mobius on April 13, 2010, 12:58:26 AM
It is one of these threads that remind me why certain players shouldn't post about character balancing. That being said, an opinion is always welcomed but I think some people should reevulate their priorities before posting. When making a suggestion like this, here is some things to consider.

Checklist
A quarter of these is mandatory, and more than half require an answer. With this, you should then realize that if the checksum sounds poor than you really should reconsider questioning balance. If you have a lot of experience in gvh then you should have experience with both ghouls and humans together. We'll assume perhaps you have some experience with your favorite class. That is already 3 questions asked, but then here is some others. Most people do not know what 4 is, but if you know how a map is played and what people do on a map than you know the meta (Meta = You expect jitters in Urban Decay, know the camp spots, what are the best classes, and what attacks work at different parts of a map).

5 Assumes you know everything about every class on every map. Now, of course, there is different playing styles for everyone but every map brings its own advantages and disadvantages to Gvh. 6 is the make and break of your opinion because if you are heavily emotional about your statement then chances are you are either frustrated or content -- emotions can sway your judgment. Are you speaking for everyone or for yourself? Are you upset because someone is exploiting you or is it because everyone else is legitimately suffering? Here is a fun fact:

People complain about the speed of a sjas, but he is no faster than a marine. He may dodge and have z height advantages, but is vulnerable to corridors where grenades, ice arrows, plasma, and certain proton pack attacks dominate. These are basic strengths and weakness of a sjas. Now if the sjas is slower than he is vulnerable to more human weapons (marine hitscan weapons to be exact). This opinion is more self serving than legit considering that only people from one camp (humans) frown on sjas' speed regardless of how he plays.

Another example is the Lightning Arrow exploit. In case you didn't know the lightning arrow exploit allowed people to obtain a perpetual amount of arrows. You can literally spam all types of arrows so long as you continue the exploit for more ammunition. Not only is this detrimental to creeper and Jitter classes but also an unintended error in the system people are exploiting for more power they shouldn't have. This hurts everyone.

The contrast to these opinions is that one is rooted by the rules set by Cutman and hurts everyone, while the other merely suggest weakening a class to enable another to succeed. As it has happened, sjas players have fallen many times so it is a matter of preference in this issue. The latter is a real issue that was ratified.

7 Is basically what I describe for 6, but this time you must also look from the point of view from other players while they play. F12 a lot of people and see what is happening. What errors are they making and what could they have done to avoid the consequence (if applicable)?

8 Is a given.

9 Is entirely simple. You need evidence to support your theory. The theory must be replicated constantly, tried and true, and must be successful a majority of the time. Then you must compare the evidence to the strength and weakness of not only the classes but the map they are on.

10. Is exactly how the Lightning Arrow issue was solved and others before it. You must bring to the table your ability to use it yourself against others more than once to a mastery where when the issue is presented, it can have terrible effects. Do not confuse this for a winning strategy, as with Frostbite, one can always avoid the range in which his breath reaches. You can also use other forms of attacks to bring him down.

So let's say I wanted to argue you, right? My first thoughts are.

Frostbite isn't too fast, his bite attack has a terrible jerking delay, is very obviously and brightly colored, and loud enough to be detected by ear. Then I will bring up most open ended maps where hitscan weapons dominate and Frostbite himself isn't exactly a tank like jitter. Then I ask, "what map and what were you doing?" Now if you were in one place, repeatedly, doing something repetitious then you deserve the punishment. Now if it was a situation like Gvh11, Hollyholocaust, where exploiting the Arcade room with Ghostbuster and Santa clause can literally stop the game into a deadlock and guarantee success without teammate intervention than you got a case; however, that is situational and it always is on gvh unless it is a solid game exploit.

These things must be considered before you make a post. Sorry that it was long, but I find the thought of Frostbite being nerfed to be absurd.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 13, 2010, 03:32:49 AM
We should of kept the old one from the beta.

Really no. The old one from the beta was slower than a cyborg, only had 100hp and bite attack did like 2hp of damage.

All the classes are fine. Cutman did a really good job on balancing them. Now if the creeper could creeper ball jump and the cyborg didn't have to doubletap everything would be perfect.

Oh last thing,
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Qent on April 13, 2010, 05:58:08 AM
Quote from: "pucy100"
I agree but his armor should be 100 or 120 not 200 and new armor icon that looks something icy ;)
...

:|

pucy, hurry up and play b8. ;)
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 13, 2010, 08:07:08 AM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
... and the cyborg didn't have to doubletap everything would be perfect.

A last resort I could make it so you can hit "useinventory" to execute the dash. But then it feels a bit out of place cause no one else has use inventories (unless I make other classes have crazy new abilities). I'll put up a poll for next week. Maybe I could give the Ghost Buster one to downgrade back to regular proton pack (without giving ammo back of course).

I'll fix the class list for next version, god dammit  :p

The Engineer seems a bit too strong at the minute IMO. It's extremely hard to dodge those nails, and he has infinite of them. I was thinking decreasing the damage of them slightly. Right now it's 15 per nail.

Also, after fixing the lightning arrow bug it seems everyone can pick up arrows... including ghouls!
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 13, 2010, 08:27:16 AM
Because we all know how much Ghouls need them arrows. Creepers sneaking up behind you and stabbing arrows in your ankles. Ouch, not a fun experience.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 13, 2010, 01:30:23 PM
useinventory would be awesome.

Ideas for humans:
(click to show/hide)

Ideas for ghouls.
(click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CarThief on April 13, 2010, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: "DoomThroughDoom"
useinventory would be awesome.
Creepers: BALL JUMP!

An perfect and REQUIRED idea for our little crippled friend. With some extra mobility he can be ALOT more stealthy, or go all ninja on humans.
Oh, and dont forget that high-up campers would have some more trouble then too. Some say he's good, i'd say it wont harm, though this should rather take part of his ammo.

And merely a personal preference about the Jitterskull suggestion, i'd rather have something usefull against the overpowered hitscan, or have something defensive and usefull after attacking, since... Meh, he doesnt last long in the open. Should of course be limited. Here's an idea, have him have like 2-3 items that grant him armor.

Of course thats merely a suggestion, but if everyone where to have something somewhat usefull as inventory option, why not?
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 13, 2010, 01:57:45 PM
If I do this I don't want to give them new powers or attacks.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Qent on April 13, 2010, 03:12:47 PM
Hunter: Dispel arrow. Instead of having to release it (makes noise, annoying with fire) just puts the arrow back in your quiver.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 13, 2010, 03:18:33 PM
Hmm good idea, I can see that having it's uses.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Mobius on April 13, 2010, 04:24:04 PM
Quote from: "Qent"
Hunter: Dispel arrow. Instead of having to release it (makes noise, annoying with fire) just puts the arrow back in your quiver.

That'd save a lot of trouble if the enemy isn't heading towards a specific location.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 14, 2010, 02:04:16 PM
All right it looks like I'm definitely gonna do this. Still need some "abilities" for the other classes. Maybe for the marine a combat roll/slide or something? Kinda like the Cyborg's dash but he can only do it in the direction he's facing, and maybe make it a little different.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Mobius on April 14, 2010, 07:56:51 PM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
All right it looks like I'm definitely gonna do this. Still need some "abilities" for the other classes. Maybe for the marine a combat roll/slide or something? Kinda like the Cyborg's dash but he can only do it in the direction he's facing, and maybe make it a little different.

Do not give marines anything. They are good enough as it is.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 15, 2010, 08:21:23 AM
I know but I'd like to keep it uniform and give everything a useinventory bonus. People will only badger me about it if I give some classes it and not others. It doesn't even have to be anything direct like a dodge move.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 15, 2010, 08:22:49 AM
Wasn't the marine supposed to have a combat roll for an alt fire originally, anyways?
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Mobius on April 15, 2010, 09:39:54 AM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
I know but I'd like to keep it uniform and give everything a useinventory bonus. People will only badger me about it if I give some classes it and not others. It doesn't even have to be anything direct like a dodge move.

;/

Got to always please the crowd? You can give them the ability to not use hitscan. That'd be nice[/kidding]
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 15, 2010, 09:42:29 AM
Marine ability - Increase all hit scan accuracy  ;)
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Possesed on April 15, 2010, 10:19:31 AM
Sjas: he could have a shield which deploys then stays there for a little while or he can use his reflecting as a low damaging projectile that violently knocks humans and any projectiles that come near it away. (10 second cool down)

Enginerer: Causes gas pipe leaks which causes damaging gas (like the realm667 steam but damaging) to come out of the floor around him that stay there for 5 seconds. (30 second cool down)

Cyborg: Charges up a powerful hitscan beam blast. While he is charging up he emits a loud siren noise and flashes red. When its warmed up (3 Second warm up) He unleashes a powerful hitscan beam which does 80 (or something like that) damage. (cooldown 20 seconds)

Choke: He lunges forward in the air dribbling acidic blood bellow him that lasts for 5 seconds. Any human who stands on the acidic blood takes damage (maybe 3 per bit of blood) (cooldown 10 seconds)

Frostbite: Fires a stream of ice spikes (like yurei's ones but smaller and less damaging) That stay there for 3 seconds. While charging he will emit a loud noise that sounds like cracking ice (Warm up 3 seconds) (cooldown 20 seconds)  Or he could fire a shard of  ice that on impact explodes into a massive cloud of ice gas (Cool down 20 seconds)

Or for all my ideas they could just have limited usages (if more than once with the cooldown)
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 15, 2010, 10:21:20 AM
The Cyborg is already getting his double tap dash turned into useinventory
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CarThief on April 15, 2010, 02:18:49 PM
I would'nt mind those above idea's except the Cyborg's.
I mean, GVH absolutely needs NO more hitscan in it, it already makes marines unrivaled in open area's and the biggest threat of the entire human team. Oh, and if his dash is gonna be his inventory item, then what is his alt fire? Normal Jetpack?

And that ice pillar thing idea might work too with frostbite, especially if he can lock humans in and throw breath at them through the spikes, hehe...
Hmm... Or create an barrier that blocks projectiles and any non-piercing hitscan too with it, and shoot breath through it, it will absolutely force humans to run or take distance. Also good defensive cover.
And though a ball jump may be a bit much, for the love of making Creeper any bit decent, give him more mobility!

Or an limited way to escape a certain death. Here's a suggestion, a 1-2 times useable inventory item that makes him completely invisible, and if possible, perhaps immune to explosive (area of effect) damage during that too? I mean, just ONCE does he need to get spotted, and boom, he's dead. A small movement increase and inability to attack wouldnt harm either during use. EDIT: If possible, silent too, i'm thinking this shouldnt be technically hard with the changeflag commands and a new state to enter when used.
Now he's just a one-shot into enemy territory and often loses said battle.
And if he's not killed on sight, he will be hunted down and killed ASAP. Trust me, i see it happen alot.

I'd still love a defensive inventory use for Jitterskull, like armor, hitscan resistance, or something. He's already off the charts with his offensive capability. :P

Hmm... Then again, these changes might throw balance upsidedown and whatnot. But hey, if everyone's getting abilities, then they'd better be usefull yet not overpowered.

I'd have no non-overpowered idea for humans, though...
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 15, 2010, 02:44:04 PM
Again, I don't want to make new attacks so most of these are out of the question already.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 15, 2010, 02:56:00 PM
The ball jumping would save creepers from some of the damage from nades... And make them fly!

Cutman, can you give some reasons against creeperball jumping? Really it's just a high jump that summons a creeperball explosion at the creepers bottom.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: CutmanMike on April 15, 2010, 03:20:49 PM
Firing a ball at a human and then ball jumping into them at high speeds.  :p
Title: .
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2010, 03:39:19 PM
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Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 15, 2010, 04:12:08 PM
Quote from: "pucy100"
-His breath should do a bit less damage
-He should have a new armor type: Icy/Ice armor that replaces doom megaarmor and the icon with something cool
-Make his teeth Jitterskull/choke model because the new teeth are soooo huge and I cant see anything.
-Make his armor 100/120 instead of 200

The breath is fine.
He has a new armor icon, go play GvHv2B8!
What is your resolution?
If it were to be 120, I say keep the same regeneration rate, if it's going to be 200, then it should be slower, or perhaps a delay before it starts regenerating back.

Go read what Mobius posted about thinking before you suggest class changes. Ontop of that, PLAY THE MOST UPDATE TO DATE VERSION FIRST.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 15, 2010, 04:35:15 PM
Quote from: "CutmanMike"
Firing a ball at a human and then ball jumping into them at high speeds.  :p
But the ball jumping will only thrust upward.
Title: .
Post by: Anonymous on April 15, 2010, 05:06:08 PM
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Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Lighting on April 15, 2010, 05:07:46 PM
Quote from: "Possesed"
Cyborg: Charges up a powerful hitscan beam blast. While he is charging up he emits a loud siren noise and flashes red. When its warmed up (3 Second warm up) He unleashes a powerful hitscan beam which does 80 (or something like that) damage. (cooldown 20 seconds)

I think that this is a good idea, what do we do with campers as a cyborg? We could blast a choke that it's charging his blood ball with this
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 15, 2010, 05:53:21 PM
Quote from: "Lighting"
Quote from: "Possesed"
Cyborg: Charges up a powerful hitscan beam blast. While he is charging up he emits a loud siren noise and flashes red. When its warmed up (3 Second warm up) He unleashes a powerful hitscan beam which does 80 (or something like that) damage. (cooldown 20 seconds)

I think that this is a good idea, what do we do with campers as a cyborg? We could blast a choke that it's charging his blood ball with this
No we don't. We bunny hop in midair with the jetpack then do a plasma airstike on it's face.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Wartorn on April 15, 2010, 10:14:23 PM
Quote from: "Ivory"
[..]GvHv8!
How the hell did I miss GvHv3 through v7???







 :p
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Mobius on April 16, 2010, 12:25:36 AM
Quote from: "Wartorn"
Quote from: "Ivory"
[..]GvHv8!
How the hell did I miss GvHv3 through v7??:p

>Implying he doesn't play Gvh

(click to show/hide)

Quote from: "Ivory"
Go read what Mobius posted about thinking before you suggest class changes. Ontop of that, PLAY THE MOST UPDATE TO DATE VERSION FIRST.

Yay! I am referenced for once!

Quote from: "Pucy"
Less damage breath

Why? Answer me that.

Quote from: "Cutmanmike"
Marine ability - Increase all hit scan accuracy ;)

Bring back Autoaim
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Ivory on April 16, 2010, 02:53:21 AM
Quote from: "Wartorn"
Quote from: "Ivory"
[..]GvHv8!
How the hell did I miss GvHv3 through v7???


Because I've been working with Cutty with GvH versions 3-7. However none of them were as good as V2, so we're now designing v8. v8 contains 13 new classes for each side, 128 maps and CTF Compatibility. It was supposed to be a surprise, but I got so annoyed I accidentally gave it away, whoops.
I meant Beta 8 obviously. I wrote that up in one minute, posted it and ran off to classes.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: Anonymous on April 20, 2010, 07:09:26 AM
How about returning my puff? Use the item and I teleport to a random spot? It would work just like before, except only when the item is used, not when I'm shot.
Title: Re: Frostbite and his spam
Post by: TERRORsphere on April 20, 2010, 03:19:18 PM
Quote from: "Sjas"
How about returning my puff? Use the item and I teleport to a random spot? It would work just like before, except only when the item is used, not when I'm shot.
That could work but would get very annoying for the humans. I'd rather the stop instaltly because the trail you leave it takes way too long for you to turn transparent.